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OU Student given a zero for citing the bible in essay

Hans Blaster

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The abstract (which apparently simply interviewed a few dozen middle school students) seemed to be designed in such a way that it was all but guaranteeing the outcome of "kids who score lower on gender typicality have poorer mental health outcomes, and it's the fault of those mean old gender norms that society foists on people"

Oh good grief. Now you are assessing a scientific study based on the abstract? Seriously? I doubt you took a "research methods in psychology" class. You are talking about a peer-reviewed scientific paper. One thing I can guarantee that was reviewed was the experimental design.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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Based on the paper guidelines that I linked the google doc for, that wouldn't have sufficed either.

It was an 8-point list of facets that had to be discussed (a few of which tilted toward a particular narrative)


Fair to assume you were in college just a "few" years before I was? ;)

I think it's safe to assume campus climates may have changed just a tad.
The 8-points was clearly just suggestions. "Possible approaches include: ..." and "There are other possibilities as well.". There is no requirement to reference the 8-points at all, as long as the student has illustrated that they read the article and engaged in critical thinking about some aspect of the article.

Screenshot_2025-12-29-05-20-05-745.jpg
 
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ThatRobGuy

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They were tasked with reviewing a paper, not just the abstract. And there's no need to read between the lines of the abstract when the full paper is available for free: https://kfor.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2025/12/jewell-brown-2014.pdf

Here's the prep materials for the final exam for the course in question.

If the final exam prep is any reflection of the course, it goes a little heavy on the "gender is just a stereotype" kind of material.

So if I had to venture a guess, this isn't the only such assignment that was of that particular theme.

I'd still see it as a "concede the premise" backdrop.

If everything in the assignment is a branch off of the "gender stereotype tree", then it's conceding the premise no matter which way it's approached absent a flat out rebuff.


It borders on the presupposition fallacy.

If someone were giving an assignment in some sort of Poli-Sci course, and the article/study they tasking people with reading was

"Evaluating whether or not the elevated crime rates among immigrant communities is outweighed by the economic benefits immigration provides"
- do you feel this topic is worth studying?
- do you agree with the findings based on your own experiences?
- recommendation for future studies to better understand how the economic benefits outweigh it

No matter how the respondent approaches it, they'd still be somewhat forced into conceding to the social premise that "immigration increases crime".


Or another way of putting it, basically structuring an assignment to delve into the minutia of extraneous facets that are all predicated on the premise that "X is true"
 
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BCP1928

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Here's the prep materials for the final exam for the course in question.

If the final exam prep is any reflection of the course, it goes a little heavy on the "gender is just a stereotype" kind of material.
So what" All gendered behavioral standards are stereotypes, are they not?
So if I had to venture a guess, this isn't the only such assignment that was of that particular theme.

I'd still see it as a "concede the premise" backdrop.

If everything in the assignment is a branch off of the "gender stereotype tree", then it's conceding the premise no matter which way it's approached absent a flat out rebuff.
Yes, you are conceding the premise that gender stereotypes exist, are held by many and have an effect on the shape of our society. Are you actually denying this?


It borders on the presupposition fallacy.

If someone were giving an assignment in some sort of Poli-Sci course, and the article/study they tasking people with reading was

"Evaluating whether or not the elevated crime rates among immigrant communities is outweighed by the economic benefits immigration provides"
- do you feel this topic is worth studying?
- do you agree with the findings based on your own experiences?
- recommendation for future studies to better understand how the economic benefits outweigh it

No matter how the respondent approaches it, they'd still be somewhat forced into conceding to the social premise that "immigration increases crime".
Only if they were paranoid about it.
Or another way of putting it, basically structuring an assignment to delve into the minutia of extraneous facets that are all predicated on the premise that "X is true"
Which we have shown it to be.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Here's the prep materials for the final exam for the course in question.

If the final exam prep is any reflection of the course, it goes a little heavy on the "gender is just a stereotype" kind of material.
No, it doesn't. There's a concept in conversation - listening to understand vs. listening to argue. You're doing the second one, just with reading.
So if I had to venture a guess, this isn't the only such assignment that was of that particular theme.

I'd still see it as a "concede the premise" backdrop.
Ah, yes, we must never admit that we're wrong. I get it - when I come up with an idea that sounds cool, I also have a tough time giving it up, even in the face of evidence that it doesn't work.
If everything in the assignment is a branch off of the "gender stereotype tree", then it's conceding the premise no matter which way it's approached absent a flat out rebuff.
But it isn't, so it isn't.
"Evaluating whether or not the elevated crime rates among immigrant communities is outweighed by the economic benefits immigration provides"
- do you feel this topic is worth studying?
- do you agree with the findings based on your own experiences?
- recommendation for future studies to better understand how the economic benefits outweigh it

No matter how the respondent approaches it, they'd still be somewhat forced into conceding to the social premise that "immigration increases crime".
The respondent could approach it by denying the premise and presenting data and research showing that immigrant communities are associated with lower crime rates.

Moreover, you still haven't articulated what premise must be conceded in order to complete the assignment.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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The respondent could approach it by denying the premise and presenting data
Moreover, you still haven't articulated what premise must be conceded in order to complete the assignment.

In the case of this story, the respondent did deny the premise, they just happened to reject in a way the instructor found personally offensive.

...and how does one construct a wordy essay for a rebuff of a conceptual idea in the realm of the soft sciences?

Rejecting an idea in the hard sciences can be done with data, the soft sciences, not as much...it becomes like trying to prove a negative.

For instance, if it were virology, and someone was pushing the idea that one could kill covid with some random supplement, one could point to clinical trials, case studies, and experiments proving the assertion is incorrect.

The "gender norms are just stereotypes and are oppressive" isn't a testable theory that can be proven or disproven through repeatable experiments.

In other words, it's a non-falsifiable theory, and like with many other theories in the soft sciences (and to a certain degree in economics as well)
- it relies on vague concepts that can't be independently measured
- defined broadly enough that it can accommodate contradictory outcomes
- structured in a way antithetical information can be leveraged as "further evidence of why my theory is correct"
For example: if someone were to say "look at how many independent societies emerged with the similar sex-driven roles and sex-driven task assignment, that would point to this being more of an outgrowth of organic pattern recognition about what works and what doesn't", and their response being "see, that shows just how deeply embedded these constructs and stereotypes are"
 
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BCP1928

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In the case of this story, the respondent did deny the premise, they just happened to reject in a way the instructor found personally offensive.

...and how does one construct a wordy essay for a rebuff of a conceptual idea in the realm of the soft sciences?
Quite a few people have done it over the years. This particular student evidently didn't know how and produced an unhinged rant instead.
Rejecting an idea in the hard sciences can be done with data, the soft sciences, not as much...it becomes like trying to prove a negative.

For instance, if it were virology, and someone was pushing the idea that one could kill covid with some random supplement, one could point to clinical trials, case studies, and experiments proving the assertion is incorrect.

The "gender norms are just stereotypes and are oppressive" isn't a testable theory that can be proven or disproven through repeatable experiments.

In other words, it's a non-falsifiable theory, and like with many other theories in the soft sciences (and to a certain degree in economics as well)
- it relies on vague concepts that can't be independently measured
- defined broadly enough that it can accommodate contradictory outcomes
- structured in a way antithetical information can be leveraged as "further evidence of why my theory is correct"
For example: if someone were to say "look at how many independent societies emerged with the similar sex-driven roles and sex-driven task assignment, that would point to this being more of an outgrowth of organic pattern recognition about what works and what doesn't", and their response being "see, that shows just how deeply embedded these constructs and stereotypes are"
Which does not deny that gender typicality is a stereotype, nor does it deny that these stereotypes can be used in oppressive ways. In fact, the purpose of the study was to discover whether they were being used in oppressive ways or not.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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In the case of this story, the respondent did deny the premise, they just happened to reject in a way the instructor found personally offensive.
The premise that the student rejected was not one asserted by the paper.
...and how does one construct a wordy essay for a rebuff of a conceptual idea in the realm of the soft sciences?
The paper did not present a conceptual idea. It presented empirical data on how middle schoolers perceive people based on their behavior and mannerisms, and how those perceptions influence social dynamics.
Rejecting an idea in the hard sciences can be done with data, the soft sciences, not as much...it becomes like trying to prove a negative.
Your disdain for the "soft sciences" is well-established.
The "gender norms are just stereotypes and are oppressive" isn't a testable theory that can be proven or disproven through repeatable experiments.
Fortunately for everyone involved, that's not what the paper asserts.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Quite a few people have done it over the years. This particular student evidently didn't know how and produced an unhinged rant instead.

Which does not deny that gender typicality is a stereotype, nor does it deny that these stereotypes can be used in oppressive ways. In fact, the purpose of the study was to discover whether they were being used in oppressive ways or not.
It was a study with a conclusion that was all but guaranteed to produce the outcome that they were hoping to leverage.

"Jr High kids pick on other Jr. High kids for being different"...gee, I'm so shocked at how that study turned out...who would've thunk it
 
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ThatRobGuy

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The premise that the student rejected was not one asserted by the paper.

The paper did not present a conceptual idea. It presented empirical data on how middle schoolers perceive people based on their behavior and mannerisms, and how those perceptions influence social dynamics.

Your disdain for the "soft sciences" is well-established.

Fortunately for everyone involved, that's not what the paper asserts.

Per USA today:
In her essay, Fulnecky argued that traditional gender roles should not be considered stereotypes.

Literally in the introduction of the study paper they were supposed to read, it opens with

Gender Stereotypes and Typicality
Gender stereotypes regarding what it means to be a ‘typical boy’ or a ‘typical girl’ permeate the American society. By the age of six, children not only know and endorse gender stereotypes (such that boys are loud and strong, and girls are weak and quiet), but they also view gender atypical behavior negatively and tend to avoid atypical types of play.


And then goes onto elaborate about the "harsh consequences people face for breaking traditional gender roles", and then goes on to close with:
The importance of typicality for children in early adolescence is not likely to wane in the near future, and thus should continue to be explored, not as a psychological disorder but as a consequence of the social world in which we live.


And it's not that I necessarily have a "disdain" for soft sciences, I enjoy a good philosophical debate, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to explore what makes people tick... What I have an issue with is people in such fields (and the people who cite them) wanting to artificially elevate it to the level of the hard sciences (and pretend as if it carries the same level of authority) as a means of trying to facilitate cultural shifts to match their own ideal, or in order to score political wins.
 
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Hans Blaster

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It was a study with a conclusion that was all but guaranteed to produce the outcome that they were hoping to leverage.

"Jr High kids pick on other Jr. High kids for being different"...gee, I'm so shocked at how that study turned out...who would've thunk it
Your dedication to characterizing a scientific study you haven't read to fit your preconceptions is quite impressive.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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I wish I had known this hack earlier, I could have received a higher grade in trigonometry. "Jesus says that the answer is cos -2.13".
 
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BCP1928

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Per USA today:
In her essay, Fulnecky argued that traditional gender roles should not be considered stereotypes.
Of course they re stereotypes. A stereotype is a generalized belief about a particular category of people. Just because a stereotype is traditional amongst some people doesn't make it less of a stereotype.
Literally in the introduction of the study paper they were supposed to read, it opens with

Gender Stereotypes and Typicality
Gender stereotypes regarding what it means to be a ‘typical boy’ or a ‘typical girl’ permeate the American society. By the age of six, children not only know and endorse gender stereotypes (such that boys are loud and strong, and girls are weak and quiet), but they also view gender atypical behavior negatively and tend to avoid atypical types of play.


And then goes onto elaborate about the "harsh consequences people face for breaking traditional gender roles", and then goes on to close with:
The importance of typicality for children in early adolescence is not likely to wane in the near future, and thus should continue to be explored, not as a psychological disorder but as a consequence of the social world in which we live.
What part of that do you think is false?

And it's not that I necessarily have a "disdain" for soft sciences, I enjoy a good philosophical debate, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to explore what makes people tick... What I have an issue with is people in such fields (and the people who cite them) wanting to artificially elevate it to the level of the hard sciences (and pretend as if it carries the same level of authority) as a means of trying to facilitate cultural shifts to match their own ideal, or in order to score political wins.
Why is it OK for conservatives to do the same thing?
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Per USA today:
In her essay, Fulnecky argued that traditional gender roles should not be considered stereotypes.
She makes that statement, yes. However, she makes no coherent argument for it - in part because she does not appear to understand the meaning of the word "stereotype:"
God is very intentional with what He makes, and I believe trying to change that would only do more harm. Gender roles and tendencies should not be considered “stereotypes”. Women naturally want to do womanly things because God created us with those womanly desires in our hearts. The same goes for men. God created men in the image of His courage and strength, and He created women in the image of His beauty. He intentionally created women differently than men and we should live our lives with that in mind.
Literally in the introduction of the study paper they were supposed to read, it opens with

Gender Stereotypes and Typicality
Gender stereotypes regarding what it means to be a ‘typical boy’ or a ‘typical girl’ permeate the American society. By the age of six, children not only know and endorse gender stereotypes (such that boys are loud and strong, and girls are weak and quiet), but they also view gender atypical behavior negatively and tend to avoid atypical types of play.
Note how Fulnecky's paper (quoted above), in fact, agrees with the passage you pulled from the study. She does propose a specific reason for these gender stereotypes to exist (namely that they're a natural result of the way that God created humans), but she appears to be under the impression that stereotypes are inherently "bad things," and since she does not believe that anything that comes from God can be bad, she feels compelled to say that these cannot be "stereotypes." That's incorrect.
And then goes onto elaborate about the "harsh consequences people face for breaking traditional gender roles",
I feel like this is a pretty well-understood fact, so I'm not sure what your point is.
and then goes on to close with:
The importance of typicality for children in early adolescence is not likely to wane in the near future, and thus should continue to be explored, not as a psychological disorder but as a consequence of the social world in which we live.
You're pulling this bit out of context, IMO. Again, reading to argue rather than reading to understand. In context, the authors refer to both "high" and "low" typicality in the Discussion, so when they just say "typicality" here, they mean the subject of typicality in general, not people exhibiting "high" typicality.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Of course they re stereotypes. A stereotype is a generalized belief about a particular category of people. Just because a stereotype is traditional amongst some people doesn't make it less of a stereotype.
What part of that do you think is false?

It's the implied baggage that goes hand in hand with it. (like with many of the "cause du jours" they take up)

The M.O. is typically...
Take a seemingly benign-sounding term or definition that's not controversial on the surface, load it up with a bunch of other extraneous ideological tie-ins aimed at tearing down anything that's western/traditional/patriarchal/etc/etc..., and when people object because of the tie-ins, accuse them of rejecting the benign-sounding semantic definition, and with the backing of people with fancy sounding degrees, label them as "unreasonable" or "rejecting empirical evidence"

The reason why their usage of the term stereotype is loaded language is because they're capitalizing upon the well-established negative tone and connotations associated with the word.

Keeping in mind, the definition of that term is: a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing

Why is it OK for conservatives to do the same thing?
Have they?

Has there been large-scale institutional efforts to inject their particular idea gender roles into academia that wasn't a reaction to the progressives injecting their own theories into the mix?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Note how Fulnecky's paper (quoted above), in fact, agrees with the passage you pulled from the study. She does propose a specific reason for these gender stereotypes to exist (namely that they're a natural result of the way that God created humans), but she appears to be under the impression that stereotypes are inherently "bad things," and since she does not believe that anything that comes from God can be bad, she feels compelled to say that these cannot be "stereotypes." That's incorrect.

Stereotype, by it's definition
a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing

Associating it with a term that's defined as "fixed and oversimplified" (and that's almost exclusively used in a negative context in contemporary discourse) would imply a "bad thing" would it not?

By calling the more traditional interpretation of gender roles (and gender in general) a "stereotype", they're basically saying that people who hold those views, and are unwilling to abandon them and adopt their views, are "inflexible, hateful, and stupid".

And they're doing so with the leverage of allies in academia with these kinds of course materials, by presenting them as if they're as "rock solid" and carry the same kind of weight and authority as much more solid sciences.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Your dedication to characterizing a scientific study you haven't read to fit your preconceptions is quite impressive.
Wouldn't have I needed to look at it to know that they constructed it around surveying a few dozen Jr. High kids?
 
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BCP1928

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Stereotype, by it's definition
a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing

Associating it with a term that's defined as "fixed and oversimplified" (and that's almost exclusively used in a negative context in contemporary discourse) would imply a "bad thing" would it not?

By calling the more traditional interpretation of gender roles (and gender in general) a "stereotype", they're basically saying that people who hold those views, and are unwilling to abandon them and adopt their views, are "inflexible, hateful, and stupid".

And they're doing so with the leverage of allies in academia with these kinds of course materials, by presenting them as if they're as "rock solid" and carry the same kind of weight and authority as much more solid sciences.
So boys get teased if they're swishy or timid about rough sports and girls get teased if they're tomboys or too butch. Even if they're straight. The study, as far as I can see, does not dwell on the causes of their atypicality.

Be sure and look under your bed tonight before you go to sleep--the LGBT agenda might be hiding there.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Stereotype, by it's definition
a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing
Not sure where you pulled that definition from.

1767059384701.png


Associating it with a term that's defined as "fixed and oversimplified" (and that's almost exclusively used in a negative context in contemporary discourse) would imply a "bad thing" would it not?
No. Similarly to "theory," just because a word has a certain meaning in contemporary lay discourse, that does not erase its meaning in an academic context.
By calling the more traditional interpretation of gender roles (and gender in general) a "stereotype", they're basically saying that people who hold those views, and are unwilling to abandon them and adopt their views, are "inflexible, hateful, and stupid".
Also no.
And they're doing so with the leverage of allies in academia with these kinds of course materials, by presenting them as if they're as "rock solid" and carry the same kind of weight and authority as much more solid sciences.
I tire of following your Gish Gallop around. Pick a topic and stick to it.
 
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