Kirk Cameron Takes Heat for His Annihilationist View on Hell

JulieB67 said:

It states that the soul will indeed be destroyed, perish, etc.

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You can continue to insert ECT in these verses but that's not what they state.​

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I understand that Matthew 10:28 and John 3:16 use “destroy” and “perish,” but we cannot isolate words from the full teaching of Scripture and the character of God. The Greek apollumi can mean “destroy fully,” but the Bible also shows that true life is being with God, and death is separation from Him (Psalm 16:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:9).

To “destroy” in hell does not mean annihilation into nothing; it is the eternal consequence of being cut off from the source of life. The soul continues in conscious judgment because sin against an infinitely holy God deserves eternal punishment (Psalm 7:11).

We must let the Bible define life and death, not our assumption of a single “primary meaning.” Words like apollumi are used in Scripture to describe the eternal ruin and suffering of the wicked, consistent with God’s holiness, justice, and the seriousness of human sin.

JulieB67 said:

Who are you to determine God's justice? We are told what will happen to the wicked. We are given our example of what will happen to the ungodly by what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. You're the one that believes that's not enough.

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I’m not determining God’s justice; I’m interpreting what Scripture teaches about it. Sodom and Gomorrah show God’s wrath in a specific historical event, but they don’t exhaust the Bible’s teaching on eternal punishment. Scripture consistently shows that the fate of the wicked is conscious, eternal separation from God.
The examples of Sodom and Gomorrah illustrate temporal destruction, but eternal punishment reveals the full weight of sin against an infinitely holy God. To claim that a single historical event fully defines God’s justice for all eternity ignores the broader teaching of Scripture.

timothyu said:

Why would He hoard junk when His goal is to rein in adversity

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God is not “hoarding junk” or keeping the wicked for usefulness. Scripture emphasizes that sin against an infinitely holy God carries infinite consequences. Eternal punishment is not about utility, it is about justice and the holiness of God being satisfied. The wicked endure conscious separation and torment because their rebellion is against the Creator of all, not because God is “saving space” or “recycling” them.

timothyu said:

Perhaps some think the greater the punishment of some, the greater their reward will be in comparison. This of course would land them too in the fire

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This highlights the seriousness of sin and God’s justice. Scripture shows that eternal punishment is proportional to rebellion against an infinitely holy God. It is not a relative comparison for others’ reward; it is the necessary consequence of sin against the Creator of all things. No human standard can reduce or soften it.

1Tonne said:

The soul continues in conscious judgment because sin against an infinitely holy God deserves eternal punishment

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Most people are cut off here and now and don't seem to mind.

timothyu said:

Most people are cut off here and now and don't seem to mind.

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Even if people seem indifferent to being cut off from God now, that doesn’t change the reality of His holiness and justice. Eternal punishment is about the seriousness of sin against an infinitely holy God, not about human perception in this life.

1Tonne said:

Eternal punishment is about the seriousness of sin against an infinitely holy God, not about human perception in this life.

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So they can merrily go about their will over His as they do here?

timothyu said:

So they can merrily go about their will over His as they do here?

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On earth that can do as they will. Or are you meaning that they can do their own will in hell?

1Tonne said:

Or are you meaning that they can do their own will in hell?

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Yes. What would change from what they do here? Perhaps suffering to them would be being forced to do His will, but He doesn't seem to work that way

timothyu said:

Yes. What would change from what they do here? Perhaps suffering to them would be being forced to do His will, but He doesn't seem to work that way

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No, they cannot ‘merrily’ follow their own will in hell. The soul in judgment is fully under God’s justice and separated from His goodness. The torment is conscious and complete, there is no enjoyment or freedom to act according to their desires. Hell is the unavoidable consequence of sin against an infinitely holy God

1Tonne said:

there is no enjoyment or freedom to act according to their desires.

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Yet sin is nothing more than serving our own will over that of God's. Perhaps this place for the rejects is nothing more than a place they can desire all they want for self, but have no way to fulfill it.

1Tonne said:

Do you mind rewording this just so I can understand better?

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Oh, your position is understandable enough, it's just ridiculously wrong. The fire and worms are the means by which dead bodies are destroyed in Gehenna/Hell. They'll always be there waiting They're symbolic of death, not sinners with eternal life being Your ideas are typical of the sort of thing that comes from coming up with a doctrine first, and then trying to find a way to support it from c after the fact. You end up with "interpreting" Scripture into absurdity to try and get it to "support" a baseless belief. That'd have you've ended up wi the wholly unsupported idea that everyone ever created has eternal life, and end up having to "meanings" to Scripture that make no sense whatsoever.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die". Real simple, "Die" means die, not some pseudo-thelogical gobbledygook made up to support some doctrinal codswallop that never had a Scriptural leg to stand on in the first place. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in torment. Eternal Life is the gift of God, not a sentence to be kept alive to be barbecued forever. Your doctrine is rubbish. Not only that, it paints God as a pitiless and just monster.

JulieB67 said:

Who are you to determine God's justice?

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THese folks Tht are so keen to see temporal sins receive eternal punishmen, and a grisly inhuman punishment at that. Tyat doesn't soound much like anything our Lord Christ ever said.

Jipsah said:

Oh, your position is understandable enough, it's just ridiculously wrong. The fire and worms are the means by which dead bodies are destroyed in Gehenna/Hell. They'll always be there waiting They're symbolic of death, not sinners with eternal life being Your ideas are typical of the sort of thing that comes from coming up with a doctrine first, and then trying to find a way to support it from c after the fact. You end up with "interpreting" Scripture into absurdity to try and get it to "support" a baseless belief. That'd have you've ended up wi the wholly unsupported idea that everyone ever created has eternal life, and end up having to "meanings" to Scripture that make no sense whatsoever.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die". Real simple, "Die" means die, not some pseudo-thelogical gobbledygook made up to support some doctrinal codswallop that never had a Scriptural leg to stand on in the first place. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in torment. Eternal Life is the gift of God, not a sentence to be kept alive to be barbecued forever. Your doctrine is rubbish. Not only that, it paints God as a pitiless and just monster.

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Oh well you're back. I wondered where you had gone.

Calling God a ‘pitiless monster’ or my position ‘rubbish’ doesn’t engage Scripture, it just insults. The reality is this: sin is ultimately against an infinitely holy God. That makes it infinitely serious (Psalm 51:4). Eternal punishment is not cruelty; it is the just consequence of rebellion against the Creator of all life.
The imagery of fire and worms in Scripture (Mark 9:48; Isaiah 66:24) communicates conscious, ongoing judgment. It is symbolic, yes, but it depicts the reality of the soul in a state of contempt and separation from God, not literal barbecuing or zoology. To suggest annihilation or that judgment is ‘instant death’ diminishes the gravity of sin and the holiness of God.
God’s justice and mercy are inseparable. Eternal punishment magnifies His mercy toward those He saves in Christ (Romans 3:23–26). To call that a ‘monster’ is to misunderstand both sin and the holiness of God.

Also, if possible, please tone your rhetoric down a little. I already know that you are upset but that does not need to come through in your writing. (Try to hold it in a little more)

Jipsah said:

THese folks Tht are so keen to see temporal sins receive eternal punishmen, and a grisly inhuman punishment at that. Tyat doesn't soound much like anything our Lord Christ ever said.

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Jipsah, look, I agree with the stance you are defending, but may I suggest that you take a little more time to check your spelling before hitting the submit button.

1Tonne said:

I understand that you feel strongly about taking the “primary meaning” of apollumi,

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I.E., what it actually says,

1Tonne said:

but we must interpret Scripture in the context of God’s character and the teaching of the whole Bible.

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And with a liberal redefinition of what the Bible actually says to assure that it doesn't do any damage to your doctrine.

You know, the Jehovah's Witnsses went so far as to coe up with their own "translation" of the Bible that didn't poke any holes in their Arian Christology. Maybe your lot need to do the same thing based on your understand of what Scripture really means as opposed to what it actually says.

1Tonne said:

The Bible repeatedly makes it clear that our sin is infinitely serious, because it is ultimately against God Himself,

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Yep, the death sentence is pretty final, innit?

1Tonne said:

the Creator of all things, the source of all goodness and life (Psalm 51:4). Every sin is a cosmic treason.

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Yep, we're all pretty much against it.

1Tonne said:

If God is perfectly just, then eternal punishment for those who reject Him is not cruelty, it is the appropriate consequence for rebellion against an infinitely holy God

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Nah. If you kill me, then the sentence when found guilty is about the same as what the malefactor would get for killing you, even though you're a nicer guy than I am by orders of magnitude. The guy who croaked you wouldn't be sentenced to life under torture, because it would be inhuman and barbarous. But your lot doesn't see it as maligning God to paint Him as infinitely inhuman and barbarous. Your position seems to be that yeah, God is malicious, and pitiless, and vindictive, and merciless, and an amalgam of what we'd certainly see as inhuman in a human being, because God Can Do As He Pleases. But that kind of makes everything He taught us when He walked aming us as a not really having anything to do with the nature of God at all, doesn't it?

Not buying it, mate. Your doctrine is unscriptural rubbish that defames God. I want nothing to do with it.

1Tonne said:

Oh well you're back. I wondered where you had gone.

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I have a life away from the keyboard.

1Tonne said:

Calling God a ‘pitiless monster’ or my position ‘rubbish’ doesn’t engage Scripture

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Neither does your doctrine, except a version of "Scripture" that's a product of wholesale redefinition of words and ijtetion misunderstanding of what's actually written. It's rubbish.

1Tonne said:

The reality is this: sin is ultimately against an infinitely holy God.

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Yep. That's why the wages of sin is death.

1Tonne said:

Eternal punishment is not cruelty;

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If you don't mind casting God in the role of a cosmic Jong-Un Kim. "Oh, they insulted Dear Leader, they deserved to be tortured to death.

1Tonne said:

it is the just consequence of rebellion against the Creator of all life.

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The contention is actually moot, because without the "benefit" of redefining the meaning os words as seems good to you, Scripture doesn't support your ungodly doctrine at all.

1Tonne said:

The imagery of fire and worms in Scripture (Mark 9:48; Isaiah 66:24) communicates conscious, ongoing judgment.

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No, it presents the actural imagery of a dead body cast into a charnal pit.

1Tonne said:

It is symbolic, yes, but it depicts the reality of the soul in a state of contempt and separation from God

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No, it presents an image of death, as in actual death, and not your redefined version thereof.

1Tonne said:

To suggest annihilation or that judgment is ‘instant death’ diminishes the gravity of sin

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Baloney. The wages of sin is death, but the GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE! Quite a contrast there, isn't it?

1Tonne said:

and the holiness of God.

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Which in your religion seems to take a back seat to His eternal malice and perpetual anger.

1Tonne said:

God’s justice and mercy are inseparable.

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And requires eternal torture for finite offenses. There's neither justice nor mercy in evidence there.

1Tonne said:

Eternal punishment magnifies His mercy

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So He didn't condemn everybody to eternal torment, r

1Tonne said:

Also, if possible, please tone your rhetoric down a little. I already know that you are upset but that does not need to come through in your writing. (Try to hold it in a little more)

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I'm not upset, simply emphatic. And in my view, any doctrine that presents God as a pitiless monster (yeah, I said it again, because it's accurate), and has to be defended by intentional redefinition of plain language is rubbish. It defames God and brings the Faith as a whole into disrepute. It drives unbelievers away, and on the whole present Christians as bad people who cheerfully contemplate the endless and infinite torture of everyone but themselves. It hold the Church as a whole up for ridicule and drives away the very people who we should be trying to reach. If opposing such a vile caricture of the Christan Faith is a crime, them I plead guilty.
Nuff said.

Jipsah said:

You know, the Jehovah's Witnsses went so far as to coe up with their own "translation" of the Bible that didn't poke any holes in their Arian Christology. Maybe your lot need to do the same thing based on your understand of what Scripture really means as opposed to what it actually says.

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It is insults like this, bad spelling, multiple quotes within the one post, and your rhetoric that show you are frustrated. If need be, take a step back.
NOTE: You have quoted me 17 times in the last 2 posts you have made, and I have not had a chance to respond. What is that about????

Jipsah said:

And in my view, any doctrine that presents God as a pitiless monster (yeah, I said it again, because it's accurate),

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How we speak about God matters. Calling Him a ‘pitiless monster’ reveals far more about our assumptions than about His character.

My view does not diminish God; it exalts Him. God is infinitely holy, infinitely just, and infinitely worthy. Because of who He is, sin against Him is not trivial. It is cosmic rebellion. Eternal punishment does not make God cruel; it magnifies His holiness and justice (Isaiah 6:3; Psalm 99:9).
At the same time, this view magnifies God’s mercy. If eternal judgment is truly deserved, then the cross becomes infinitely glorious. Christ did not save us from something small or temporary, but from real and dreadful wrath (Romans 5:8–9). Reducing judgment reduces grace.

I would never dare to accuse God of cruelty for doing what He Himself says is just. Scripture commands us to tremble before Him, not to put Him in the dock of human moral preferences (Romans 9:20). God is not answerable to us. We are answerable to Him.
Eternal punishment does not make God a monster. It reveals that He is holy, just, and merciful beyond measure, and that sin is far more serious than we like to admit.

1Tonne said:

but we cannot isolate words from the full teaching of Scripture and the character of God.

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Your doctrine hangs on a but a few misunderstood verses and the redefining of words. When we take the bible as a whole it's laid out very clearly what will happen to the wicked.

1Tonne said:

We must let the Bible define life and death, not our assumption of a single “primary meaning.

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Yes, we should and it does. You have to insert the secondary meaning because it props up your doctrine but for the verses I've posted the primary fits. Both body and soul fits the primary meaning. If one of those were missing you'd have some wiggle room for your definition but you don't. Christ calls it the second death and afterwards we are told there shall be no more death. So you're statements about people suffering "ongoing death" is also false and unbiblical. You have to continually add to God's word and that's a dangerous thing to do.

1Tonne said:

” Words like apollumi are used in Scripture to describe the eternal ruin and suffering of the wicked,

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You agreed that the primary meaning was "destroy fully" so I asked you for some examples used in the Bible for when it actually does mean exactly that vs Matthew 10:28 and others. You act as if the second meaning is the primary.

Jipsah said:

It drives unbelievers away, and on the whole present Christians as bad people who cheerfully contemplate the endless and infinite torture of everyone but themselves. It hold the Church as a whole up for ridicule and drives away the very people who we should be trying to reach.

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Yes! This is the most damaging thing about the ECT doctrine.

JulieB67 said:

Yes! This is the most damaging thing about the ECT doctrine.

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Actually i would say just as badly it's the perpetual misery and fear it has caused in many professing believers, worried that they did something at some point to make God hate them enough to revoke their saved status and now have them marked for eternal misery in hell, ESPECIALLY the professing believers in Christ like myself who have a problem with obsessive compulsive disorder.

How does one feel proper love and reverence for a God whom he is simultaneously afraid stands ready to burn him alive for eternity, after all?

SarahsKnight said:

Actually i would say just as badly it's the perpetual misery and fear it has caused in many professing believers, worried that they did something at some point to make God hate them enough to revoke their saved status and now have them marked for eternal misery in hell, ESPECIALLY the professing believers in Christ like myself who have a problem with obsessive compulsive disorder.

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Yes, you're right. And I've been there myself a few times. It never made sense to me when I was taught this doctrine with what we were also being taught about God at the same time.