You agreed that the primary meaning was "destroy fully" so I asked you for some examples used in the Bible for when it actually does mean exactly that vs
Matthew 10:28 and others. You act as if the second meaning is the primary.
I’m not acting as though a ‘secondary meaning’ replaces a ‘primary’ one. I’m pointing out that biblical meaning is determined by usage and context, not by an English gloss or a dictionary ranking.
Yes, apollumi can mean ‘destroy fully.’ The question is what kind of destruction the text is describing. Scripture itself shows that apollumi is often used for ruin or loss without cessation of existence:
- Luke 15:24 — the prodigal son was ‘lost’ (apolōlos) and then ‘found’; he did not cease to exist.
- Matthew 8:25 — ‘we are perishing’ (apollymetha) clearly does not mean annihilation.
- John 6:27 — food that ‘perishes’ does not stop existing; it spoils.
- 1 Corinthians 1:18 — ‘those who are perishing’ are conscious people in rebellion, not nonexistent.
So, Scripture itself establishes that apollumi does not inherently mean annihilation. That meaning must be demanded by the context, not assumed.
In
Matthew 10:28, Jesus contrasts killing the body with God destroying both soul and body in Gehenna. If ‘destroy’ there meant simple extinction, the contrast collapses, because men already accomplish extinction in the first death. Jesus’ warning only makes sense if God’s destruction is greater in scope and consequence, not merely shorter in duration.
I’m not privileging a ‘secondary meaning.’ I’m letting Scripture interpret Scripture. If annihilation were the intended meaning, the Bible would not repeatedly describe the lost as conscious, judged, punished, or enduring consequences (
Mark 9:48;
Revelation 14:10–11;
Revelation 20:10).
So, the issue isn’t that I’m redefining words. It’s that you’re insisting on a single sense of apollumi while ignoring how the Bible itself uses the word.
t drives unbelievers away, and on the whole present Christians as bad people who cheerfully contemplate the endless and infinite torture of everyone but themselves. It hold the Church as a whole up for ridicule and drives away the very people who we should be trying to reach.
Yes! This is the most damaging thing about the ECT doctrine.
Actually i would say just as badly it's the perpetual misery and fear it has caused in many professing believers, worried that they did something at some point to make God hate them enough to revoke their saved status and now have them marked for eternal misery in hell, ESPECIALLY the professing believers in Christ like myself who have a problem with obsessive compulsive disorder.
How does one feel proper love and reverence for a God whom he is simultaneously afraid stands ready to burn him alive for eternity, after all?
You view rests on a misunderstanding of what eternal judgment says about God and what it says about us.
First, faithful Christians do not “cheerfully contemplate” anyone’s judgment. Scripture explicitly says God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11), and neither should we. The doctrine of eternal punishment is not held with glee, but with sobriety, grief, and urgency. If some present it harshly, that is a failure of tone, not a failure of truth.
Second, the claim that this doctrine “drives people away” assumes that truth must be softened to be acceptable. Yet Jesus spoke more plainly about hell than anyone else in Scripture (Mark 9:48; Matthew 25:46). The apostles did not withhold hard truths to make the message more palatable. The gospel offends not because Christians enjoy judgment, but because sin is real and God is holy.
Regarding fear among believers, especially those struggling with anxiety or OCD, this is a deeply important pastoral issue. But the problem is not the doctrine of judgment; it is confusing judgment with condemnation. Scripture is clear:
“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1).
The same God who judges sin has bound Himself by promise to save all who are in Christ. Eternal punishment is not held over believers as a threat; it is precisely what Christ bore in our place. A believer’s assurance rests not in their emotional state or flawless obedience, but in Christ’s finished work (John 10:28–29).
Finally, fearing God does not negate love for God. Scripture commands both (Matthew 10:28; Proverbs 9:10). God’s holiness makes His mercy astonishing, not terrifying. A God who judges evil eternally is not a monster; He is a God who takes evil seriously, who will not trivialize suffering, injustice, or rebellion.
In short:
- Eternal judgment magnifies the seriousness of sin
- It magnifies the depth of Christ’s sacrifice
- And it magnifies the security of those who are truly in Him
Removing judgment to make God seem safer does not make Him more loving, it makes the cross less necessary.
