Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

Dan1988 · Thursday at 5:16 AM

2PhiloVoid said:
So, you'll stop using English to communicate then? Language itself comes from "man's wisdom."

But, I know, I get it. Who cares?

That's wrong, because here's why God created languages. This will prove that "mans wisdom" contributed nothing.

Genesis 11:7-9
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

So yes, you can burn your diploma

2PhiloVoid · Thursday at 7:56 AM

ladodgers6 said:
I agree with Dan1988, because creation cannot partake in the divine essence of the Triune Trinity.

I never said anything about creation partaking in the divine essence of the Trinity. I don't believe that it does. Why anyone would think the word "Philosophy" must automatically imply as such is beyond me.

2PhiloVoid · Thursday at 8:03 AM

ladodgers6 said:
I agree with some of what you write, and contest the rest. I learned a long time ago to read everything I can get on hands on. But the historic fact is that the Bible is the only reliable source. That's where I base my confidence, because it is the word of God. And many upon many facts back this up.

And did I say anywhere that the Bible isn't a substantive historical source? I don't think did. Y'know, we all come to the Bible in different ways, and I come to it via the Philosophy of History and Hermeneutics. But even so, I have confidence in the Bible as being Sacred Scripture coming from God.

It's good that you are open to reading everything you can get your hands on. I do too. That's why I have several hundreds books on Christian Theology and History.

ladodgers6 said:
But I am interested on how you base your truth claim if you have no core standard to rely upon.

Which 'truth claim' are you referring to? Are you intending to refer to Epistemology specifically, or something else altogether?

ladodgers6 said:
It seems to me that you rely on bias self-assuring feelings rather than on facts presented in Scripture.

.... I rely on anything but my "feelings." I'm primarily an Evidentialist in my faith, and only Existential where the Biblical information may be lacking. So, for me, fact and rational thought override my feelings.

And even where the topic of 'Hell' is concerned, I attempt to look at the Scriptural and Historical evidence for understand how it was thought about by each individual writer of the New Testament letters and books. My feelings have little or really nothing to do with my methodology.

But I know, there are some folks out there who are Annihilationists simply because the idea of an Eternal Hell is too emotionally overwhelming for them. Although I may lean toward Annihilationism myself, I can see in the New Testament how a case can be made for either perspective and if an Eternal Hell is what the Lake of Fire actually is, my feelings about will have little or nothing to do with my understanding of it.

2PhiloVoid · Thursday at 8:04 AM

Dan1988 said:
That's wrong, because here's why God created languages. This will prove that "mans wisdom" contributed nothing.

Genesis 11:7-9
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

So yes, you can burn your diploma

So God "created" the English language [and all of the languages spoken around the world today] during the Tower of Babel incident? Really?

Well, whatever the case may be, I'm not worried that Hell is either an ongoing fire or an extinguishment from existence. Both are bad and I'm open to either perspective.

ladodgers6 · Thursday at 7:50 PM

2PhiloVoid said:
I never said anything about creation partaking in the divine essence of the Trinity. I don't believe that it does. Why anyone would think the word "Philosophy" must automatically imply as such is beyond me.

Okay, I want to be fair. Please, state your position.

ladodgers6 · Thursday at 7:51 PM

2PhiloVoid said:
Which 'truth claim' are you referring to? Are you intending to refer to Epistemology specifically, or something else altogether?

Epistemology and Ontology.

2PhiloVoid · Thursday at 9:26 PM

ladodgers6 said:
Okay, I want to be fair. Please, state your position.

You want me to state my position on what exactly? The tangential direction that Dan has taken this little thread isn't clear to me. He's injected the extra topic about 'Truth' and seems to think that simply citing a Bible verse somehow comprehensively establishes and explains any and all that might be addressed in regard to the concept of "truth" in all it's possible references.

We all know that Jesus said He is the Truth, the Life and the Way. We're all Trinitarian Christians here and no one is contravening Jesus' statement of God's Truth here.

2PhiloVoid · Thursday at 9:34 PM

ladodgers6 said:
Epistemology and Ontology.

What you're seemingly asking, as far as I can tell, is for me to divulge as to what my choice of praxis is when doing theology. Well, for me, theology hinges on the application of research in Historiography, the Philosophy of History, Archaeology, and various Critical Biblical Studies, as well as upon Philosophical Hermenuetics and Evidentialism.

As for Metaphysics, I tend to ignore it and just focus on Physics and material science without worrying about the final ontologicalquestions, but where knowledge is concerned, then I draw upon a number of scholars for analyses dealing with Epistemology and our justification for claims of "knowledge." I would rather study the Cosmos or the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun rather than guessing as to what Heaven and Eternal Life will actually be like. I'm sure it'll be grand with a Capital J.

But here's the thing: I have no intention of going around wacking other Christians over the head, insisting upon their dogmatic compliance with how I ultimately understand the Bible and then condemning those who don't. As for the issue of 'Hell,' which this thread pertains to, I don't care if Christians subscribe to either Eternal Fire or Annihilationism. I do have less room for Universalism, but I might be persuaded to "allow" universalist Christians to have room to believe as they wish without automatically consigning them to the Lake of Fire for hoping that everyone would be saved.

ladodgers6 · Thursday at 11:06 PM

2PhiloVoid said:
What you're seemingly asking, as far as I can tell, is for me to divulge as to what my choice of praxis is when doing theology. Well, for me, theology hinges on the application of research in Historiography, the Philosophy of History, Archaeology, and various Critical Biblical Studies, as well as upon Philosophical Hermenuetics and Evidentialism.

As for Metaphysics, I tend to ignore it and just focus on Physics and material science without worrying about the final ontologicalquestions, but where knowledge is concerned, then I draw upon a number of scholars for analyses dealing with Epistemology and our justification for claims of "knowledge." I would rather study the Cosmos or the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun rather than guessing as to what Heaven and Eternal Life will actually be like. I'm sure it'll be grand with a Capital J.

But here's the thing: I have no intention of going around wacking other Christians over the head, insisting upon their dogmatic compliance with how I ultimately understand the Bible and then condemning those who don't. As for the issue of 'Hell,' which this thread pertains to, I don't care if Christians subscribe to either Eternal Fire or Annihilationism. I do have less room for Universalism, but I might be persuaded to "allow" universalist Christians to have room to believe as they wish without automatically consigning them to the Lake of Fire for hoping that everyone would be saved.

Thanks for sharing with you. I like having discussions with civil manners. Yeah, people IMHO have their own prerogative & aptitude to seek what they wish. I am a novice astrologer whose always in awe when witnessing the wonders of space. Just witnessing M31, Saturn, Jupiter all point to a Divine Maker. Physics or natural laws all also point to a designer. I am now studying Quantum Physics & Micro Biology: Human Cells (Mitosis).

All that being said, doesn't reveal what God has accomplished in His Son for His people. The historical record of the eschatological consummation of God's Redemptive Plan is what I am interested in. That to me is more awe taking that anything else I have read. I am only sharing with you.

Thanks again for sharing.

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-12-12T05:07:56-0600

Dan1988 said:
There are many opposing interpretations of the Biblical doctrine of hell. Most Christian denominations, interpret "eternal torment in hell" as "Annihilationism". They teach that Gods Word cannot be taken literally and hell is not eternal, they teach that it's an instantaneous burning up and the person's body, sloe and spirt cease to exist.

This view is a direct contradiction to what Gods Word reveals.

Hell is a place of eternal punishment for the unrepentant, characterized by both separation from God's favour and the presence of his wrath. It is not a place of rehabilitation, but a permanent state of suffering for the wicked, who will experience "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and a fire that is not quenched.

God is present in hell not with kindness, mercy, and grace, but with his "wrathful presence" and just punishment.
Hell is a final, permanent state of punishment. The wicked are not annihilated, nor is there a second chance for salvation after death.

Punishment includes positive pains of body and soul, anguish, and despair, described through biblical metaphors like fire and gnashing of teeth.
The wicked are raised from the dead to be judged and then experience the "second death," which is an unending punishment.

The biblical doctrine of eternal torment in hell, which is understood as everlasting, conscious punishment for the unrighteous.
This view, often termed "Eternal Conscious Torment" is supported by scriptural passages like the parables of Jesus that use imagery of "unquenchable fire" and "undying worms," and phrases like "everlasting punishment". To sin against an eternal God warrants a severe and everlasting penalty.

The punishment for sin is considered unending, a concept supported by passages such as Matthew 25:46, which parallels "everlasting life" with "everlasting punishment".

Hell is a place of conscious torment, not annihilation. The wicked will remain conscious and aware of their suffering for eternity.
Hell is a place of final separation from God's presence and grace, it's not an absence of God. Instead, it is experiencing God's wrathful presence.
The torment is a manifestation of God's wrath, which is a just and righteous response to sin against His holy nature.

Some scriptural examples, are found in

Matthew 25:41, 46 Jesus speaks of sending the cursed "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" and says these will go away "into everlasting punishment".

Mark 9:43, 48 Jesus uses the imagery of a "fire that never shall be quenched" and "where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" to describe the place of judgment.

Revelation 14:11 The text says, "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night".

Hebrews 12:29 God is described as a "consuming fire" in reference to his wrath.

A couple basic points.

Most denominations do not say hell/LoF is Annihilation. They have similar position to yours.

Secondly there assuredly is salvation after death. All of us receive eternal life *in full* after our physical death. So there's that.

Additionally Paul very clearly stated enemies of the Gospel are saved simply by being Israel, not having to do anything other than being Israelites. Romans 11:26-32

Dan1988 · 2025-12-12T05:26:15-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
So God "created" the English language [and all of the languages spoken around the world today] during the Tower of Babel incident? Really?

Well, whatever the case may be, I'm not worried that Hell is either an ongoing fire or an extinguishment from existence. Both are bad and I'm open to either perspective.

Just wondering why you don't believe what God said about the matter. Your opinion has no baring on anything. Everything that God predestined, will come to pass, with or without your approval or disapproval.

Dan1988 · 2025-12-12T06:04:52-0600

BelieveItOarKnot said:
A couple basic points.

Most denominations do not say hell/LoF is Annihilation. They have similar position to yours.

Secondly there assuredly is salvation after death. All of us receive eternal life *in full* after our physical death. So there's that.

Additionally Paul very clearly stated enemies of the Gospel are saved simply by being Israel, not having to do anything other than being Israelites. Romans 11:26-32

I should have made my point clearer, I should have said. Most Christian Denominations don't accept the bible doctrine of hell. Most have invented their own unbvi9blical version of hell. I believe this is, because the truth about hell is just to hard to accept.

2PhiloVoid · 2025-12-12T07:30:11-0600

Dan1988 said:
Just wondering why you don't believe what God said about the matter. Your opinion has no baring on anything. Everything that God predestined, will come to pass, with or without your approval or disapproval.

I do (generally) believe what is said by the New Testament writers about Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus. But being that these ideas are ancient and foreign in nature, locked away as they are within the linguistic confines of a dead language, they have to be carefully understood, not quickly nor blithely rattled off from a biblical text printed in modern English. And when they are sifted through for meaning using Hermeneutics (which we all should be doing), I find that the evidence as to whether we should 'believe' in an eternal fire or we should believe in annihilation is underdetermined. So, I allow other, fellow Christians [such as yourself] to make up their own minds on the matter.

2PhiloVoid · 2025-12-12T07:34:07-0600

ladodgers6 said:
Thanks for sharing with you. I like having discussions with civil manners. Yeah, people IMHO have their own prerogative & aptitude to seek what they wish. I am a novice astrologer whose always in awe when witnessing the wonders of space. Just witnessing M31, Saturn, Jupiter all point to a Divine Maker. Physics or natural laws all also point to a designer. I am now studying Quantum Physics & Micro Biology: Human Cells (Mitosis).

All that being said, doesn't reveal what God has accomplished in His Son for His people. The historical record of the eschatological consummation of God's Redemptive Plan is what I am interested in. That to me is more awe taking that anything else I have read. I am only sharing with you.

Thanks again for sharing.

You're welcome. Thank you for also sharing your thoughts on these matters in turn. I appreciate your brotherly composure.

ladodgers6 · 2025-12-12T23:04:19-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
You're welcome. Thank you for also sharing your thoughts on these matters in turn. I appreciate your brotherly composure.

For sure. If I may ask, what do you do with all those passages about Hell and eternal punishment? Because Jesus talked more about Hell than anyone else in the Bible.

ladodgers6 · 2025-12-12T23:10:36-0600

BelieveItOarKnot said:
A couple basic points.

Most denominations do not say hell/LoF is Annihilation. They have similar position to yours.

Secondly there assuredly is salvation after death. All of us receive eternal life *in full* after our physical death. So there's that.

I'm not sure what you mean here. But believing sinners receive eternal life now. In the present time. Our glorified bodies are received later.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Additionally Paul very clearly stated enemies of the Gospel are saved simply by being Israel, not having to do anything other than being Israelites. Romans 11:26-32

Again, I do not know exactly what you are saying here. You are not saved simply because you are a descendant of Israel. John 8:39-47.

Dan1988 · 2025-12-12T23:21:48-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
I do (generally) believe what is said by the New Testament writers about Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus. But being that these ideas are ancient and foreign in nature, locked away as they are within the linguistic confines of a dead language, they have to be carefully understood, not quickly nor blithely rattled off from a biblical text printed in modern English. And when they are sifted through for meaning using Hermeneutics (which we all should be doing), I find that the evidence as to whether we should 'believe' in an eternal fire or we should believe in annihilation is underdetermined. So, I allow other, fellow Christians [such as yourself] to make up their own minds on the matter.

I get the sense that you don't accept the Bible as being Gods "eternal, all powerful, inerrant, unchanging, living Word".

We can't say that it it no longer has the same authority, just because it has been translated from the original ancient languages.
If that was the case then we could plead ignorance on judgement day, but Gods Word confirms that we are all without excuse. God has successfully communicated with His creation, so we all give an account of our lives before Him.

Gods Word leaves no room for excuses, such as "I never knew, because the scriptures were so vague and obscure".

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

As you can see from the above verses, it's not only the devil who is cast into the lake of fire to be tormented day and night forever and ever. But all of those who's names are not written in the book of life are also cast into the lake of fire with the devil.

I also wish that I could wish the awful Bible doctrine of hell away, but it's not possible. The heavens and the earth will pass away but Gods Word remains for all eternity.

zelosravioli · 2025-12-12T23:49:34-0600

Dan1988 said:
Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

As you can see from the above verses, it's not only the devil who is cast into the lake of fire to be tormented day and night forever and ever. But all of those who's names are not written in the book of life are also cast into the lake of fire with the devil.

'those who's names are not written in the book of life are also cast into the lake of fire with the devil'
But - No - it does not say those who's names are not 'written in the book of life' will be tormented day and night.
Verse 20:10 says '..the beast and the false prophet' they will be tormented day and night forever and ever'
The Angels the beast and the false prophet apparently are immortal, but humans are not immortal.
Like Ghenna, the Lake Of Fire burns up the dead, like all fire does, it consumes.
Otherwise it's a poor fire that does not burn anything.

Dan1988 · 2025-12-13T00:49:32-0600

zelosravioli said:
'those who's names are not written in the book of life are also cast into the lake of fire with the devil'
But - No - it does not say those who's names are not 'written in the book of life' will be tormented day and night.
Verse 20:10 says '..the beast and the false prophet' they will be tormented day and night forever and ever'
The Angels the beast and the false prophet apparently are immortal, but humans are not immortal.
Like Ghenna, the Lake Of Fire burns up the dead, like all fire does, it consumes.
Otherwise it's a poor fire that does not burn anything.

No, that's nonsense and wishful thinking. I can give you a truckload of verses showing that those in the lake of fire are all tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I don't want to hurt your feelings by citing those awful verses, but I'm happy to do so if that's what you want.

ladodgers6 · 2025-12-13T00:59:58-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
You're welcome. Thank you for also sharing your thoughts on these matters in turn. I appreciate your brotherly composure.

Yeah, I believe we can have friendly and civil discussions and share what we believe and why we believe it.

Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

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Actually, the Earth does go around the Son!

Actually, the Earth does go around the Son!

Actually, the Earth does go around the Son!

Genesis 11:7-9​

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.​

​

So yes, you can burn your diploma ​

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Actually, the Earth does go around the Son!

Actually, the Earth does go around the Son!

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

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Actually, the Earth does go around the Son!

Actually, the Earth does go around the Son!

Know what you believe and why you believe it

Know what you believe and why you believe it

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Believer

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Know what you believe and why you believe it

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Genesis 11:7-9

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

So yes, you can burn your diploma