Refuting Losing Salvation!

WordSword said:

I believe the Law for the Jews passed away "when all was fulfilled" by the Lord Jesus (Mat 5:18); when He said, "It is finished" (Jhn 19:30), He fulfilled all the Law. Jesus and His disciples taught the Law until His ascension!

The Law was for the Jews and nobody else. Even after His ascension I believe the Jews continued in the law until Rome destroyed the second Temple (40 years after His ascension), after which there could be no more sacrifices nor any ceremonies. The Jews no longer have a Covenant with God but are to receive a "New Covenant" latter (Jer 31:31-33; Eze 36:24-27). This Covenant will still involve new "statutes, judgments, ordinances and Law.

Click to expand...

Jesus did fulfill the Law, He was prophesized to magnified it Isa 42:21 which means makes larger, not smaller and He gave examples of this right from the Ten Commandments Mat5:19-30 relating with thoughts of anger that lead up to breaking the commandment of thou shalt not murder. If our heart is changed, the actions would be changed and thou shalt not murder would be kept. I find it odd that Jesus would come so we can now worship other gods or murder our neighbor. This is a man-made teaching, nothing Jesus taught, why He said not to break the least of these commandments Mat5:19 and doing so I would consider His warning because it shows our heart is still in the flesh Rom8:7-8 instead of walking and abiding in Him John15:10 John14:15-18

The New Covenant is the location of His Laws changing- from tablets of stone (Ten Commandments Deut4:13) to tablets of the heart 2Cor3:3 Heb8:10 God keeping His promise of not altering His words Psa89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat5:18 God’s Laws are not the issue they are perfect Psa19:7 and holy Rom7:12 the issue is man and our harden heart, rebelling against the law of God. Rom 8:7-8 Heb3:7-19. Why the NC is established on better promises Heb 8:6 not all new laws, it has God’s law Heb8:10 just placed in the NC believers heart. We need to enter into His covenant promise through faith, having our Fathers Laws written in our heart obeying Him through faith and love Exo20:6 John14:15 which reconciles us Rev22:14

WordSword said:

Hi SB!

Click to expand...

Hi WS!

WordSword said:

I like a lot of what you said,

Click to expand...

I am glad we can agree on some things that's always a good start.

WordSword said:

but I think we should realize what is meant by "till all be fulfilled"! Jesus is teaching the law to Jews who were under the law. No other nationality will ever be under the law, not even the new law which will be in their next new covenant later, beginning with the Millennial Kingdom. Mat 5:20 is probably one of the passages that demonstrates the law most. The righteousness of Christians far exceeds the law because theirs is Christ's righteousness.

Click to expand...

Lets actually look at these verses a little closer. I think this is a very important teaching of Jesus.


Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

What was prophesied on the law that Jesus is fulfilling?

Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

The Greek word here for magnify means to make larger or greater. Jesus just said plainly He did not come to destroy the law or prophets but to fulfill.

18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one [b]jot or one [c]tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

There is nothing here that says "Jesus is teaching the law to Jews who were under the law." and I am a big believer of not adding to His Word but allowing Him to explain, especially when its Jesus speaking directly.

Jesus said plainly He did not come to destroy the law but was predicted He would make His laws greater, not smaller and not a jot or tittle shall pass from the law until ALL is fulfilled.

1. Heaven and earth have to pass (which has not happened)
2. Not all is fulfilled like these prophecies that Jesus plainly said He did not come to destroy


Isa 25:8
he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

So not all is fulfilled until heaven and earth pass, Jesus comes in the clouds, judgement is served John12:48 Jesus makes a New Heaven and New Earth Isa66:22-23

So therefore:

19 Whoever (not just Jews- everyone) therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Were the Pharisees keeping the commandments of God? No Jesus condemned them because they laid aside the commandments of God in lieu of man-made commandments and traditions and Jesus said in doing so they made the word of God of no effect by their traditions Mat 15:3-14 Mark7:7-13 so following in their footsteps Jesus said by no means will one enter into heaven

And if you keep reading in this passage you will see Jesus magnifying His laws using two of the Ten Commandments as examples but they apply to all of them- not breaking the least of these commandments Mat5:19 and relates anger in our heart is what leads up to sin and if our heart is changed, the outward part would be changed and thou shalt not murder would be kept Mat5:19-30

WordSword said:

Jesus only taught the Jews because He was sent only to the Jews (Mat 15:24);

Click to expand...

This is a misunderstanding of what Israel means. It means God's sons. Exo4:22 Are we not all called to be sons and daughters of God? It was never meant to be only literal. God shows no partiality Acts 10:34 Romans 2:11

Jesus is everyone's example to follow, not just Jews 1 John2:6 1 Peter 2:21-22 and Jesus is the way John14:6 and I understand how convenient it would be not to have to follow His teachings, but its an error in human teaching, not coming from God's Word.

WordSword said:

His Apostles and disciples, esp. Paul, taught the Gentiles concerning Christianity. Eph 2:15 shows how the Lord Jesus has made Jews and Gentiles as one people in Christ. This involves the Jews who, with the Gentiles believe in Christ.

Click to expand...

Amen. There is only one people in Christ and God's people keep God's commandments Rev14:12 His version because no one can change a jot or tittle of the Testimony of God Exo31:18 Psa89:34 Deut4:13

WordSword said:

The Jews that love and believe in God but not yet in Christ inherit the New Earth; and the Christians inherit the New Heaven!

Click to expand...

No Scripture says this. There are only two groups, the saved and the lost. Rev 20 Rev22:14-15

WordSword said:

Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, that is, all the Prophecies that concerned Him and the Law.

"Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, which refers to the entire Old Testament. This means he completed the purpose of the law by embodying its true meaning and achieving what it pointed towards, particularly in terms of salvation and reconciliation with God." - cbtseminary.org

Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, meaning His purpose was to bring the Old Testament scriptures to completion through His life, teachings, and sacrificial death. This fulfillment involves perfectly obeying the law, embodying the prophetic messages, and providing a way for believers to be saved from their sins through His sacrifice. - Google AI

Click to expand...

Why are you using other sources instead of the words of Jesus Christ, as if they mean more than what Jesus Himself said? He said not a jot or tittle shall pass from His laws and not to break the least of these commandments. Mat5:18-19 destroying prophecies of His second coming that has yet to be fulfilled that He just said He did not come to destroy. Mat5:17 Why would Jesus fulfilling His laws means we can go vain His holy name or steal from our neighbor or do the exact opposite of what Jesus just said. I would consider prayerfully reading more Scripture and less commentaries made from man. We have this warning in Scripture if anyone teaches this Isa8:20 so we won’t be deceived. Jesus in His own words said when we lay aside the commandment of God again quoting from the Ten Commandments, we are making the word of God of no effect Mat15:3-14 Mark7:7-13. It sad people gloss over His teachings as if they are made for “other people” and His teachings and life as our example are not for us, only His death, what He can do for us, not what He asks of us and showed us how to do so. 1 John2:6 1 Peter 2:21-22 Heb4:15 It’s sad but what was predicted 2 Tim4:3-4

WordSword said:

I think we have a difference of opinion with "till all is fulfilled." Everything Jesus did completed the Law, because He was still teaching the law while He was teaching Grace.

Click to expand...

If He completed the law as if to say because He "completed" we do not need to keep it, why would He say this in the very next verse?

Mat5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. According to the very next verse least in heaven is not there.

Can you please tell me when this was completed?

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Jesus just said He did not come to destroy the law or prophets and heaven and earth shall pass away before a jot or tittle of the law shall pass util ALL is fulfilled. Heaven and earth are still here therefore not a jot or tittle of the law shall pass and therefor whoever breaks the least of these commandments (quoting from the Ten) shall me least in heaven.

God does not want us to sin and break His commandments, this teaching is not coming from God. Isa8:20 1John3:8 Jesus said if you love Me, keep My commandments John14:15 He came to magnify His laws Isa42:21, not destroy. Mat5:17

WordSword said:

Because He kept it for the Jews, which nobody could do. Gentiles Christians are never under the Law but under Grace!

Click to expand...

Where does it say this in this passage? Jesus said "Whoever" not Jews.

WordSword said:

Jesus was still teaching the Law at that time. I believe until the Temple was destroyed 40 years after His ascension the law was still in force. But with no more Temple there could be no more law. Also, one cannot keep the law and Grace.

Click to expand...

Where does it say we are not supposed to keep God's laws- its kept by God's faithful until He returns Rev14:12 Rev22:14 Just as Jesus said Mat5:17-30 Grace does not mean one can sin Rom6:1-4 and sin is breaking God's laws 1John3:4 James 2:11

WordSword said:

His death "finished" all the OT prophecies concerning His expiation for our sins (Jhn 19:30). His death was our condemnation; His Life and ascension is our growth in our faith in Him (Eph 4:15).

Click to expand...

So forget the OT prophecies of His Second Coming that Jesus said He did not come to destroy? I believe allowing the Text to interpret Itself one will find the message God is telling us.

WordSword said:

I say this because only Jews were under the Law; Christians (Jews and Gentiles) came under Grace.

Click to expand...

I think Jesus saying "whoever" in Mat5:19 begs to differ as if Gentiles can worship other gods and steal from their neighbor and break the least of these commandments but Jews can't why Jesus said "Whoever" which means His sayings apply to you and me and everyone else.

WordSword said:

I don't think the "commandments" here in Rev. are in reference to the Law's commandments, but God and Christ's commands of the Gospel.

Click to expand...

I think they mean exactly what they say they do, they are God's commandments the ones He wrote and defined as His. Who better to tell us His own laws that God Himself, He calls it His Testimony written and spoken by God Exo31:18 Deut4:13 and claims they as His Exo20:6

WordSword said:

John Gill: "Here are they that keep the commandments of God;" and not the inventions of men, and the traditions of antichrist, but the ordinances of the Gospel, as they were at "first delivered" (1Co 15:3), without any adulteration and corruption; and who kept them because they were enjoined by God, and from a principle of love to him, and with a view to his glory

Grace goes beyond Law, in that it is received by faith only, and keeping the Gospel manifests you love and believe in Him. Law was works. If you tried to keep the Law (Decalogue and ordinances - first 5 Books of Moses - the Pentateuch) it manifested you loved God and had faith in Him, and you were in fellowship with Him.

Also, the Law in its sin sacrifices typified Christ's expiation for our sin; but the prophecies of His coming was not in the Law as this came latter e.g. Isa 9:6; 7:14; Mic 5:2, etc. .

Until the Romans destroyed the Temple 40 years after the Lord Jesus' ascension, the Jews were still under the Law. Without a Temple they could not continue serving the Law. God wanted them to move on into the New Covenant in Christ by "taking away the first, that He may establish the second" (Covenant - Heb 10:9; 8:7, 13).

Click to expand...

You keep going to commentaries as the authority when what I quoted was Jesus Himself speaking as if there is anyone greater than He.

I am okay agreeing to disagree, but believing in the wrong person over what Jesus said plainly I believe will come with some consequence's. No one else can save us but Jesus and He said:


Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings (not John Gill, or Paul, or anyone else but He) and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was [j]founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it [k]fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

I am not too familiar with John Gills writings to be honest but from my understanding he did not teach we do not have to obey God's commandments. This is what AI said about that topic


No—John Gill did not teach that Christians don’t have to keep the Ten Commandments in the sense of “they’re irrelevant / optional.”

What he does teach (classically Reformed/Baptist) is more like:

• Believers are not justified by keeping the law (including the Ten Commandments),
• but the moral law (summarized in the Ten Commandments) remains the rule of righteous living, while ceremonial/judicial aspects tied to Israel are not binding in the same way.

Gill explicitly identifies “the commandments” as the Ten Commandments​

For example, commenting on Luke 18:20 he says:

• “Thou knowest the commandments… The ten commandments given to Moses …” John Gills Exposition of the Bible

And on Deuteronomy 6:17 he urges keeping God’s commandments, noting “Not only the ten commands, but all others…” BibliaPlus

The view he rejects​

Gill rejects the idea that people can inherit eternal life by law-keeping as a basis of acceptance—he stresses the need for the law to be fulfilled and satisfaction made for its violations (i.e., Christ), rather than sinners earning life by obedience. John Gills Exposition of the Bible

Bottom line​

If someone claims “John Gill said we don’t have to keep the Ten Commandments,” that’s misleading unless they mean a narrower point like:

• “We are not under the law as a covenant of works / not justified by it,”

…which is very different from “no need to obey God’s moral commands.”

WordSword said:

I say this because only Jews were under the Law; Christians (Jews and Gentiles) came under Grace.

I don't think the "commandments" here in Rev. are in reference to the Law's commandments, but God and Christ's commands of the Gospel.

John Gill: "Here are they that keep the commandments of God;" and not the inventions of men, and the traditions of antichrist, but the ordinances of the Gospel, as they were at "first delivered" (1Co 15:3), without any adulteration and corruption; and who kept them because they were enjoined by God, and from a principle of love to him, and with a view to his glory

Grace goes beyond Law, in that it is received by faith only, and keeping the Gospel manifests you love and believe in Him. Law was works. If you tried to keep the Law (Decalogue and ordinances - first 5 Books of Moses - the Pentateuch) it manifested you loved God and had faith in Him, and you were in fellowship with Him.

Also, the Law in its sin sacrifices typified Christ's expiation for our sin; but the prophecies of His coming was not in the Law as this came latter e.g. Isa 9:6; 7:14; Mic 5:2, etc. .

Until the Romans destroyed the Temple 40 years after the Lord Jesus' ascension, the Jews were still under the Law. Without a Temple they could not continue serving the Law. God wanted them to move on into the New Covenant in Christ by "taking away the first, that He may establish the second" (Covenant - Heb 10:9; 8:7, 13).

Click to expand...

A problem arises with the statement that only Israel was under the law, the Ten Commandments. I do agree that the church is not under the law but we must look closely at other scriptures. The law, the Ten Commandments are what defined sin and the wages of sin is death, the sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is the law. Scripture says all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of GOD. If the gentiles were not under the law then they could not sin. Were the Gentiles sinless ? Paul said that both Jews And Gentiles are all under the power of sin. Romans 3:9 Efforts have been made to evade this plain statement by assuming there must have been some other law that condemns Gentiles apart from the Ten Commandments. These efforts are lies. It is just that the Gentiles never kept the law, they were without the law but still under the law. It would not be fair to have two different sets of laws, there is one law for all people Jew or Gentile. The righteous condemnation of the law to kill sinners is the ministry of death Paul wrote about. 2 Corinthians 3:7 This is because everyone under the law is dead because everyone has sinned. Jesus provided a new covenant, a way to escape the Ten Commandments and come under the two commandments he gave and the program of the message of the gospel. Jesus did this without abolishing the Ten Commandments. Both covenants operate simultaneously today because GOD yet uses the Ten Commandments as a schoolmaster to draw sinners to HIS son but after we are in Christ we are no longer under a schoolmaster, the Ten Commandments. The church is the only people in the world that is not condemned to death by the Ten Commandments because there is no new condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. When we neglect living by every word of GOD and form a theory or doctrine by using only a few scriptures we will be incorrect. I have demonstrated this here with the idea that Gentiles are not under the law. It’s not true , they are. People that claim to be Christians but yet think they must keep the Ten Commandments actually deny the work that Christ did to rescue us from the Ten Commandments and they have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4 Usually there is no way to convince these people of their error. I love GODS law, just like King David did because it was what GOD used to draw me to HIS son . As a schoolmaster the law can teach us many things as it served only as a shadow of the good things to come in Christ. As we grow in grace we come to see the fulfillment of those law shadows and gain an understanding that adds to our spiritual growth.

By the way you are also correct about the word Commandments in Revelation, they are not the ten but are the two. The ten do not fit with the testimony of Jesus . The same is true in , Genesis 26:5 , as we know that Moses didn’t even give the law until 430 years after Abraham and Moses said that the Ten Commandments covenant was not given to the fathers. Deuteronomy 5:3 You and I and all true Christians should tell people in the world, the unconverted, that they need to keep the Ten Commandments because they are under the law and this is done in the hope that by their trying will find it impossible to do. This then is the opportunity for GOD to draw the if HE so desires. This is why Jesus said, Matthew 5:19 , This is the approach Jesus used with the rich young ruler. Remember the Ten Commandments can only be fulfilled with GODS love in us, love is the fulfillment of the law. This is how Christians establish the law. This is why Isaiah said, Isaiah 8:20 The old covenant was used by the Apostles and Jesus to preach the new covenant because with the spirit of GOD the shadows, the symbolism, became understood. People who abolish the law in their minds throw out all that can be learned from the schoolmaster.