Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

Hentenza · 2025-12-04T08:06:55-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
Personally, I don't invest in this sort of thread since I think the topic itself is underdetermined and can be seen from either viewpoint.

I’m just following the scriptural thread weaved through scripture. The preponderance of the evidence points a certain direction. But at the end of the day there are a few competing arguments that hold water. I’ve been involved in several arguments that go the predictable way and that is a shame because they are usually based on faulty linguistic context. I think that in all the years that I’ve been here there has only been two or three debaters that argued within the hermeneutical framework. I learn from those.

2PhiloVoid · 2025-12-04T08:12:09-0600

Hentenza said:
I’m just following the scriptural thread weaved through scripture. The preponderance of the evidence points a certain direction. But at the end of the day there are a few competing arguments that hold water. I’ve been involved in several arguments that go the predictable way and that is a shame because they are usually based on faulty linguistic context. I think that in all the years that I’ve been here there has only been two or three debaters that argued within the hermeneutical framework. I learn from those.

I understand what you're saying, and it's one reason I don't get into these more secondary discussions. Because if I do, I demand and expect professional level support, which is what I'm going to bring to the table.

But as it is, the Nature of Hell just isn't a topic I want to spend more time on in my life than what I've already spent on it. I don't think it matters either way since, either way, people should sense some healthy fear in coming before a Holy Lord.

Hentenza · 2025-12-04T08:15:35-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
I understand what you're saying, and it's one reason I don't get into these more secondary discussions. Because if I do, I demand and expect professional level support, which is what I'm going to bring to the table.

But as it is, the Nature of Hell just isn't a topic I want to spend more time on in my life than what I've already spent on it. I don't think it matters either way since, either way, people should sense some healthy fear in coming before a Holy Lord.

Agreed. But I’m one of those that migrate to the topic. We all have our topics of interest.

2PhiloVoid · 2025-12-04T08:22:38-0600

Hentenza said:
Agreed. But I’m one of those that migrate to the topic. We all have our topics of interest.

I understand. I try to stick to Apologetics, Philosophy and History rather than General Theology. I didn't really come to these forums long ago to argue with fellow Christians.

JulieB67 · 2025-12-04T08:42:35-0600

Hentenza said:
Earthly death

This would be considered the first death, punishment or not.

Hentenza said:
but the spirit returns to the one who made it

Yes, and at Judgement Day (hasn't happened yet) the second death happens. Which coincides with Christ's teaching with Matthew 10:28.

Hentenza said:
The preponderance of the evidence points a certain direction.

If you don't want to believe death is not really death. Christ even calls it the "second death". I don't think we need to add or take away from that. And to say, well Christ doesn't really mean death.

And Malachi makes it pretty clear that the wicked will be turned to ashes. That's what a fire does. Which also coincides with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28

We have many verses that state that the wicked will be burned up, shall perish, be cut off, consumed away and so on.

BobRyan · 2025-12-04T09:59:45-0600

Dan1988 said:
You are very confused, I corrected you by teaching you that Ezekiel was not speaking about Satan/The Devil.

you did do your own teaching but you failed to show that the Bible agrees with your ideas on that point.

Dan1988 said:
Satan/The Devil did not exist when Lucifer was in heaven.

true since Lucifer only became the devil when he fell.

However Rev 12 makes it very clear that he fell while in heaven and in heaven was called the devil.

Dan1988 said:
Lucifer left His first estate and He morphed into a vile and totally depraved evil creature.

fiction. There is no "morphing" in the Bible, Good angels did not "morph" in order to disobey. Neither did Adam.

Dan1988 said:
So, please go and join a bible class for beginners

I teach those classes and lesson one is "do not make stuff up. Stick with what the Bible says"

Dan1988 said:
Satan believes and knows full well that the Lord Jesus will torment Hi in the lake of fire for all eternity.

If you were writing the Bible just then, I would finally have a Bible text to back that speculation up

Hentenza · 2025-12-04T11:20:47-0600

JulieB67 said:
This would be considered the first death, punishment or not.

Early death for the saved includes going to paradise just like the thief on the cross while early death for the wicked included going to hell like the rich man in the Lazarus and the rich man story.

JulieB67 said:
Yes, and at Judgement Day (hasn't happened yet) the second death happens. Which coincides with Christ's teaching with Matthew 10:28.

It is going to happen exactly as Jesus say that it will. You cannot be dogmatic about the definition of apollumi since there are several definition that fit Matt. 10:28. I posted the full definition in a previous post 72.

JulieB67 said:
If you don't want to believe death is not really death. Christ even calls it the "second death". I don't think we need to add or take away from that. And to say, well Christ doesn't really mean death.

The definition does not dogmatically support your theory. If you look at the total times that Jesus used the word “death” and its variances out of 100 times 86 referred to physical death while only 9 referred to both death and separation from God.

JulieB67 said:
And Malachi makes it pretty clear that the wicked will be turned to ashes. That's what a fire does. Which also coincides with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28

Their bodies turn to ashes but the spirit goes back to the one who made it (Ecc. 12:7).

JulieB67 said:
We have many verses that state that the wicked will be burned up, shall perish, be cut off, consumed away and so on.

Not really. Post each one and we’ll discuss.

JulieB67 · 2025-12-04T14:54:44-0600

Hentenza said:
Not really. Post each one and we’ll discuss.

How about as a starting point start with Psalms and work your way through Proverbs. Quite a few verses in there about what ultimately happens to the wicked.

Hentenza · 2025-12-04T15:18:42-0600

JulieB67 said:
How about as a starting point start with Psalms and work your way through Proverbs. Quite a few verses in there about what ultimately happens to the wicked.

I’ve read them as part of my many researches into scripture and there are written using a great assortment of literary devices. For example, psalms are mostly poetic and some of them were meant to be sang so a lot of symbolic teachings. I’ve yet to find support for annihilation there.

Dan1988 · 2025-12-05T00:55:28-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
You might be a bit too infatuated with your Minister if he's controlling your social choices.

And what exactly is the "TRUE GOSPEL" ?????????????????????? Which church do I have to go to to get that ???????????????????

Jesus also said to love your enemy as well. And I don't think He intended that to mean that all we need to do as Christians is simply flap our lips at people about avoiding Hell.

I think you've misunderstood my point.

My Minister, is appointed by the Lord, to teach me, to lead me and to watch over me, just as a Shepherd watches over his flock. The Lord raised him up and ordained him for this purpose, so I am obliged to submit myself to his authority because he is responsible to God for my soul.

Being a member of the Body of Christ, means that I'm a sheep and my Minister is the Shepherd. So I don't have the authority to challenge his teaching, so when He instructs me to have no fellowship with those who reject the gospel, then I must obey or, face disciplinarily action, including excommunication.

I can't tell you're not a leader of any kind yourself yourself, so you know what I mean.

There is only one true gospel and that is the gospel of the Lord Jesus, likewise there is only One true Church and that is the Body of the Lord Jesus. You can't find it because it's by election only, God draws His elect to His Son. He does this by quickening His elect to life (we are all born dead in sin), then He uses His men to preach the gospel to us and we respond by the faith that God gifted His elect with.

To understand what the Lord Jesus meant by saying "love your enemy", you first need to understand what the word "love" means. I'd suggest you do a bible study on what it means, but I'll just give you a brief overview here>>>

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things".

As you can see, love is not the sensual thing the world thinks it is. Gods people love ther enemies by living faithful lives and that preaches the gospel louder than words. So it's really about living the God given faith, and not simply "flapping our lips" as you rightly pointed out.

I still don't know what point you were trying to make, would you kindly stake your claim, in plain language. I'm not very good at solving riddles.

2PhiloVoid · 2025-12-05T06:46:00-0600

Dan1988 said:
My Minister, is appointed by the Lord, to teach me, to lead me and to watch over me, just as a Shepherd watches over his flock. The Lord raised him up and ordained him for this purpose, so I am obliged to submit myself to his authority because he is responsible to God for my soul.

Being a member of the Body of Christ, means that I'm a sheep and my Minister is the Shepherd. So I don't have the authority to challenge his teaching, so when He instructs me to have no fellowship with those who reject the gospel, then I must obey or, face disciplinarily action, including excommunication.

I can't tell you're not a leader of any kind yourself yourself, so you know what I mean.

There is only one true gospel and that is the gospel of the Lord Jesus, likewise there is only One true Church and that is the Body of the Lord Jesus. You can't find it because it's by election only, God draws His elect to His Son. He does this by quickening His elect to life (we are all born dead in sin), then He uses His men to preach the gospel to us and we respond by the faith that God gifted His elect with.

Yes, you are a sheep.

Dan1988 said:
To understand what the Lord Jesus meant by saying "love your enemy", you first need to understand what the word "love" means. I'd suggest you do a bible study on what it means, but I'll just give you a brief overview here>>>

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 "Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things".

Yeah..........................and how is your own personal application of 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 working out for you? I'm sensing you're having a difficult time applying it and don't do any better with it than I do, or anyone else.

Dan1988 said:
As you can see, love is not the sensual thing the world thinks it is. Gods people love ther enemies by living faithful lives and that preaches the gospel louder than words. So it's really about living the God given faith, and not simply "flapping our lips" as you rightly pointed out.

I still don't know what point you were trying to make, would you kindly stake your claim, in plain language. I'm not very good at solving riddles.

My point? I suppose one main point among hundreds I could make in the face of everyone on these forums, including you, is that I'm not going to drop kick to the trash any one of my own informative theological sources simply because you, or your minister, just shows up one day to tell me that I've got something wrong in my theology. Is that clear enough for you, Dan? For instance, I won't be taking a lighter to my copy of Millard J. Erickson's 1000+ page book on Christian Theology, or to any of my books by Peter Enns for that matter, simply because your minister might not agree either one....................................

So, I don't really believe that your minister is any more qualified or authorized to "command" anyone's attention than anyone else. What books or resources does your minister direct you to read? And where did he attend seminary or other theological school in order to learn his theology? And is your present understanding of the Bible and of the "True Gospel" merely conditioned solely and singularly on whatever your local minister says?

Despite what you think, the world does not revolve around your minister. I hope I've made myself clear "enough." You can tell him I said as much. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.

eleos1954 · 2025-12-05T08:45:59-0600

Dan1988 said:
That's all based on your own private opinion, but there are no scriptures to support this opinion. There are countless scriptures which support the doctrine of hell as "Eternal Conscious Torment".

Thanks for your opinion, but private opinions have no value in Gods economy.

What kind of a loving God would torture people for eternity? I would not ... could not worship a god like that.

Theres all kinds of scripture that teaches death is a sleep ... including from Jesus himself.

John 11:11-13:
Jesus says of the deceased Lazarus, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going to awaken him from his sleep." The disciples misunderstood, thinking He meant literal sleep, but Jesus clarified, "Lazarus is dead".
- 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14:
  Paul writes, "Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him".
- Daniel 12:2:
  "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt".
- Matthew 9:24
  & Luke 8:52: Jesus tells mourners at a girl's death, "Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep," before raising her.
- Acts 7:60:
  Stephen's death is described as "falling asleep in the Lord" after he cries out to Jesus.

Meaning of the Metaphor:

- Temporary State: Sleep is temporary, implying an eventual awakening (resurrection).
- Unconsciousness: It signifies a state of inactivity and unconsciousness, where the dead know nothing.
- Hope: For believers, it offers comfort, pointing to the resurrection and eternal life in Christ.

Fifty-four Texts That Describe Death as "Sleep" - Fulcrum7
Feb 5, 2021 — In Job, believed to be the oldest book in the Bible, death is again referred to as sleep: Job 7:21: “Now shall I sleep ...

Fulcrum7
Does My Soul Sleep After Death? | Desiring God
Apr 7, 2016

Desiring God
In Bible Is Death Like Sleep? : r/Christianity - Reddit
Nov 27, 2017 — saved_son. • 8y ago. Yes - death is like sleep in that we aren't aware of anything or the passage of time. But it's di...
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Dan1988 said:
That's all based on your own private opinion, but there are no scriptures to support this opinion. There are countless scriptures which support the doctrine of hell as "Eternal Conscious Torment".

Thanks for your opinion, but private opinions have no value in Gods economy.

No it's not opinion ... it's from scripture

1 Deuteronomy 31:16: “The Lord said to Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.”
II Samuel 7:12: “When thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers.""
I Kings 1:21: “When my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers.”
I Kings 2:10: “David slept with his fathers.”
I Kings 11:21: “David slept with his fathers.”
I Kings 11:43: “Solomon slept with his fathers.”
I Kings 14:20: “Jeroboam...slept with his fathers.”
I Kings 14:31: “Rehoboam slept with his fathers.”
I Kings 15:8: “Abijam slept with his fathers.”
I Kings 15:24: “Asa slept with his fathers.”
I Kings 16:6: “Baasha slept with his fathers.”
I Kings 16:28: “Omri slept with his fathers.”
I Kings 22:40: “Ahab slept with his fathers.”
I Kings 22:50: “Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers.”
II Kings 8:24: “Joram slept with his fathers”
II Kings 10:35: “Jehu slept with his fathers”
II Kings 13:9: “Jehoahaz slept with his fathers”
II Kings 13:13: “Joash slept with his fathers”
II Kings 14:16: “Jehoash slept with his fathers”
II Kings 14:22: “The king slept with his fathers”
II Kings 14:29: “Jeroboam slept with his fathers”
II Kings 15:7: “Azariah slept with his fathers”
II Kings 15:22: “Menahem slept with his fathers”
II Kings 15:38: “Jotham slept with his fathers”
II Kings 16:20: “Ahaz slept with his fathers”
II Kings 20:21: “Hezekiah slept with his fathers”
II Kings 21: 18: “Manasseh slept with his fathers”
II Kings 24:6: “Jehoiakim slept with his fathers”
II Chron. 9:31: “Solomon slept with his fathers”
II Chron. 12:16: “Rehoaboam slept with his fathers”
II Chron. 14:1: “Abijah slept with his fathers”
II Chron. 16:13: “Asa slept with his fathers”
II Chron. 21:1: “Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers”
II Chron. 26:2: “The king slept with his fathers”
II Chron. 26:23: “Uzziah slept with his fathers”
II Chron. 27:9: “Jotham slept with his fathers”
II Chron. 28:27: “Ahaz slept with his fathers”
II Chron. 32:33: “Hezekiah slept with his fathers”
II Chron. 33:20: “Manasseh slept with his fathers”

In Job, believed to be the oldest book in the Bible, death is again referred to as sleep:
Job 7:21: “Now shall I sleep in the dust”
Job 14:12: “They shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep”

In the Psalms, death is a sleep:
Psalm 13:3: “Lest I sleep the sleep of death”
Psalm 90:5: “Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep”

Daniel promises a resurrection of the sleeping dead:
Daniel 12:2: “Many of they that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake”

Jesus described death as “sleep”:
Matthew 9:24: “The maid is not dead but sleepeth.”
Mark 5:39: “The damsel is not dead but sleepeth”
Luke 8:52: “She is not dead but sleepeth”
John 11:11: “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth”

At Jesus’ crucifixion:
Matthew 27:52: “Many bodies of the saints which slept arose”

Luke reiterates I Kings:
Acts 13:36: “David...fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers”

Paul describes death as sleep:
I Cor. 15:20: “Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that sleep”
I Cor. 15:51: “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed”
I Thess 4:13: “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope”
I Thess. 4:14: “If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus”

JulieB67 · 2025-12-05T08:57:18-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
Yes, you are a sheep

Yes, apparently very much so. Sadly there are too many different flocks out there. But thank goodness we only have to worry about being in one -Christ's.

2PhiloVoid · 2025-12-05T09:02:11-0600

JulieB67 said:
Yes, apparently very much so. Sadly there are too many different flocks out there. But thank goodness we only have to worry about being in one -Christ's.

I quite agree with you that it is sad to see so many of our fellow brethren being more concerned with engaging other Christians via a "conflict" model of social interaction rather than in grace for fellowship.

At the same time, I'm waiting for Dan to come back at me in my emphasis of him being a sheep and double down on his statement for the sake of clarification and insist that he is indeed a sheep ................ and that folks like me are a 'goat.' I say this because Dan was using the term, 'sheep,' as a favorable motif in relation to his minister and to his understanding of being a Christian.

JulieB67 · 2025-12-05T09:26:56-0600

2PhiloVoid said:
I say this because Dan was using the term, 'sheep,' as a favorable motif in relation to his minister and to his understanding of being a Christian.

I agree.

And it's good to have teachers, etc. But there's nothing wrong with checking them out vs God's Word. Dan doesn't feel he has the right to do so. But I feel that is our responsibility to do so. Because that's the only way we can know if they're leading us on the right path. He thinks because someone has a degree that means something. But not in this day and age. I found that out personally.

2PhiloVoid said:
I quite agree with you that it is sad to see so many of our fellow brethren being more concerned with engaging other Christians via a "conflict" model of social interaction rather than in grace for fellowship.

Yes and that's sadly seems to be the MO of some on there. I admit I get pulled into these types of debates pretty heavily but I'm not setting out with the purpose to create a conflict. I just want to have honest discussions straight from the Gods' word, not man's.

Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

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