Is Hell Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

[Hentenza]

Personally, I don't invest in this sort of thread since I think the topic itself is underdetermined and can be seen from either viewpoint.

I’m just following the scriptural thread weaved through scripture. The preponderance of the evidence points a certain direction. But at the end of the day there are a few competing arguments that hold water. I’ve been involved in several arguments that go the predictable way and that is a shame because they are usually based on faulty linguistic context. I think that in all the years that I’ve been here there has only been two or three debaters that argued within the hermeneutical framework. I learn from those.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I’m just following the scriptural thread weaved through scripture. The preponderance of the evidence points a certain direction. But at the end of the day there are a few competing arguments that hold water. I’ve been involved in several arguments that go the predictable way and that is a shame because they are usually based on faulty linguistic context. I think that in all the years that I’ve been here there has only been two or three debaters that argued within the hermeneutical framework. I learn from those.

I understand what you're saying, and it's one reason I don't get into these more secondary discussions. Because if I do, I demand and expect professional level support, which is what I'm going to bring to the table.

But as it is, the Nature of Hell just isn't a topic I want to spend more time on in my life than what I've already spent on it. I don't think it matters either way since, either way, people should sense some healthy fear in coming before a Holy Lord.

 

[Hentenza]

I understand what you're saying, and it's one reason I don't get into these more secondary discussions. Because if I do, I demand and expect professional level support, which is what I'm going to bring to the table.

But as it is, the Nature of Hell just isn't a topic I want to spend more time on in my life than what I've already spent on it. I don't think it matters either way since, either way, people should sense some healthy fear in coming before a Holy Lord.

Agreed. But I’m one of those that migrate to the topic. We all have our topics of interest.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Agreed. But I’m one of those that migrate to the topic. We all have our topics of interest.

I understand. I try to stick to Apologetics, Philosophy and History rather than General Theology. I didn't really come to these forums long ago to argue with fellow Christians.

 

[JulieB67]

Earthly death

This would be considered the first death, punishment or not.

but the spirit returns to the one who made it

Yes, and at Judgement Day (hasn't happened yet) the second death happens. Which coincides with Christ's teaching with Matthew 10:28.

The preponderance of the evidence points a certain direction.

If you don't want to believe death is not really death. Christ even calls it the "second death". I don't think we need to add or take away from that. And to say, well Christ doesn't really mean death.

And Malachi makes it pretty clear that the wicked will be turned to ashes. That's what a fire does. Which also coincides with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28

We have many verses that state that the wicked will be burned up, shall perish, be cut off, consumed away and so on.

 

[BobRyan]

You are very confused, I corrected you by teaching you that Ezekiel was not speaking about Satan/The Devil.

you did do your own teaching but you failed to show that the Bible agrees with your ideas on that point.

Satan/The Devil did not exist when Lucifer was in heaven.

true since Lucifer only became the devil when he fell.

However Rev 12 makes it very clear that he fell while in heaven and in heaven was called the devil.

Lucifer left His first estate and He morphed into a vile and totally depraved evil creature.

fiction. There is no "morphing" in the Bible, Good angels did not "morph" in order to disobey. Neither did Adam.

So, please go and join a bible class for beginners

I teach those classes and lesson one is "do not make stuff up. Stick with what the Bible says"

Satan believes and knows full well that the Lord Jesus will torment Hi in the lake of fire for all eternity.

If you were writing the Bible just then, I would finally have a Bible text to back that speculation up

 

[Hentenza]

This would be considered the first death, punishment or not.

Early death for the saved includes going to paradise just like the thief on the cross while early death for the wicked included going to hell like the rich man in the Lazarus and the rich man story.

Yes, and at Judgement Day (hasn't happened yet) the second death happens. Which coincides with Christ's teaching with Matthew 10:28.

It is going to happen exactly as Jesus say that it will. You cannot be dogmatic about the definition of apollumi since there are several definition that fit Matt. 10:28. I posted the full definition in a previous post 72.

If you don't want to believe death is not really death. Christ even calls it the "second death". I don't think we need to add or take away from that. And to say, well Christ doesn't really mean death.

The definition does not dogmatically support your theory. If you look at the total times that Jesus used the word “death” and its variances out of 100 times 86 referred to physical death while only 9 referred to both death and separation from God.

And Malachi makes it pretty clear that the wicked will be turned to ashes. That's what a fire does. Which also coincides with Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28

Their bodies turn to ashes but the spirit goes back to the one who made it (Ecc. 12:7).

We have many verses that state that the wicked will be burned up, shall perish, be cut off, consumed away and so on.

Not really. Post each one and we’ll discuss.

 

[JulieB67]

Not really. Post each one and we’ll discuss.

How about as a starting point start with Psalms and work your way through Proverbs. Quite a few verses in there about what ultimately happens to the wicked.

 

[Hentenza]

How about as a starting point start with Psalms and work your way through Proverbs. Quite a few verses in there about what ultimately happens to the wicked.

I’ve read them as part of my many researches into scripture and there are written using a great assortment of literary devices. For example, psalms are mostly poetic and some of them were meant to be sang so a lot of symbolic teachings. I’ve yet to find support for annihilation there.