What is the meaning of Total Depravity?

fhansen · Thursday at 9:17 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
There is no difference between immortal life and eternal life

Immortal life is just existing. Eternal life is existence with God. To exist apart from Him would be a kind of "eternal death".

This world is a kind of halfway house where good and evil are experienced, are literally known, with one foot in heaven and one in hell but not yet totally in either. Here we choose between the two, with the help of grace which is always drawing us towards the right choice.

Clare73 · Thursday at 9:32 AM

fhansen said:
A ridiculous unbiblcal pattern if imputation is said to be the only reason for man's unrighteousness before God and his restored righteousness through Christ.

You'll have to take that up with the apostle:

". . .death reigned from Adam to Moses even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam who was a type (tupos; figure, type, pattern) of the one who was to come." (Ro 5:14)

fhansen · Thursday at 10:00 AM

Clare73 said:
You'll have go take that up with the apostle:

". . .death reigned from Adam to Moses even over those whose sns were not like the transgression of Adalm who was a type (tupos; figure, type, pattern) of the one who was to come." (Ro 5:14)

You'll have to do that. It's already been explained why death reigned over all, because all were separated from the Author of life. This killed them spiritually as well as introducing its physical parallel: the death of the body. The many were made unrighteous-sinners-by Adam while the many are made righteous again by Jesus.

Clare73 · Thursday at 10:15 AM

fhansen said:
You'll have to do that. It's already been explained why death reigned over all,

Indeed . . ."that ridiculous unbiblical pattern" is explained in Ro 5:14

". . .death reigned from Adam to Moses even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type (tupos; figure, type, pattern) of the one who was to come." (Ro 5:14)

Sinful Adam was a type of the righteous Christ? . . .how could that be?

fhansen · Thursday at 10:22 AM

Clare73 said:
Indeed "that ridiculous unbiblical pattern" is explained in Ro 5:14

". . .death reigned from Adam to Moses even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam who was a type (tupos; figure, type, pattern) of the one who was to come." (Ro 5:14)

Nothing about imputation of righteousness tho:

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:17-19

The many will be made righteous, no longer sinners.

Clare73 · Thursday at 10:27 AM

fhansen said:
Nothing about imputation of righteousness tho:
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:17-19
The many will be made righteous, no longer sinners.

The above is the parallel of the imputation of Adam's sin (to all those of Adam) with the imputation of Christ's righteousness (to all those of Christ.)

We find imputation of Christ's righteousness (to all those of Christ) in Ro 4:1-5, 5:14, (Ge 15:5-6).
We find imputation of Adams sin (to all those of Adam) in Ro 5:12-16, 17, 18-19.
We find both in each of the two opposing parallels of Ro 5:18-19.

fhansen · Thursday at 10:33 AM

Clare73 said:
We find imputation of righteousness in Ro 4:1-5, Ge 15:5-6.

We find the accounting of righteounesness there, because faith is righteous.

BelieveItOarKnot · Friday at 7:43 PM

Clare73 said:
The natures of divine life, angelic life and human life are not the same.

When discussing "eternal life" and "immortal life" they are technically identical

Your claim differentiated these states and your response didn't seem to pick up on the logic flaw

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-11-15T08:13:55-0600

fhansen said:
This world is a kind of halfway house where good and evil are experienced

Which of course renders any notions of ignoring or denying the evil facts useless lies by the bearer

Good choices never eliminated evil thoughts to "choose from"

Find honest answers from there

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-11-15T08:31:55-0600

Maria Billingsley said:
Pretty clear that the concept of depravity is illusory.

All we have to understand is when we insert the tempter, our adversary into the picture, total depravity is abundantly clear and accurate, but unseen

That's the one critical piece that Calvin missed but it's so obvious

Clare73 · 2025-11-15T10:39:25-0600

BelieveItOarKnot said:
When discussing "eternal life" and "immortal life" they are technically identical

Hardly. . ."eternal life" is more than just "immortal," it is God's life. . .which is not the same as human life which is not the same as animal life which is not the same as plant life.
My human spirit has immortal life, but it does not have God's (eternal) life, apart from the new birth into that life (Jn 3:3-8).

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Your claim differentiated these states and your response didn't seem to pick up on the logic flaw

It's not about logic, it's about their nature. . .they are not the same life, as easily seen between human life and plant life.

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-11-15T10:55:05-0600

Clare73 said:
Hardly. . ."eternal life" is more than just immortal, it is God's life

And God then gives immortal life to others, but that giving is not from God?

Do you see the dilemma in such postures yet?

Only God can grant immortality and God ALONE dwells in and has the power to grant HIS immortality in order to "give it."

Said "immortality" therefore has to come from God, which is the general point. You are trying to isolate God from immortality, which is kinda nutz.

fhansen · 2025-11-15T11:23:08-0600

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Which of course renders any notions of ignoring or denying the evil facts useless lies by the bearer

Good choices never eliminated evil thoughts to "choose from"

Find honest answers from there

Either way, grace give us the means to choose good thoughts, and acts, over evil ones.

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-11-15T12:51:34-0600

fhansen said:
Either way, grace give us the means to choose good thoughts, and acts, over evil ones.

Evil thoughts defile all regardless of choices, the general point of our Lord in Matt. 7:21-23

There is no escaping that fact by acting good and thinking that eliminates God's Facts

Clare73 · 2025-11-15T13:03:10-0600

BelieveItOarKnot said:
And God then gives immortal life to others, but that giving is not from God?

Immortality is not eternal life.
All human spirits have immortality, not all have eternal (God's) life.

Rather, immortality is no death.
God created all human spirits immortal (no death).
Eternal life is God's life within the immortal human spirit of the born again (Jn 3:3-8), which not all are.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Do you see the dilemma in such postures yet?

Only God can grant immortality

God creates the human spirit in immortality.
Our human spirit is immortal (without ending) from its existence.
The human spirits of the damned are immortal.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
and God ALONE dwells in and has the power to grant HIS immortality in order to "give it."

God's dwelling within the human immortal spirit is not the source of its immortality (no cessation of its existence), immortality of the human spirit comes with its creation.
God does not dwell within any immortal spirit which has not received eternal (God's) life and faith.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Said "immortality" therefore has to come from God, which is the general point. You are trying to isolate God from immortality, which is kinda nutz.

Yes, immortality (without ending) of the human spirit comes from God at its creation.
The human spirits of the damned are immortal at their creation.

fhansen · 2025-11-15T13:28:16-0600

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Evil thoughts defile all regardless of choices, the general point of our Lord in Matt. 7:21-23

There is no escaping that fact by acting good and thinking that eliminates God's Facts

Matthew 7:21-23 refers to many, not all. And the gospel has nothing to do with just acting good, which Jesus denounces. It has to do with what happens when we turn to God in faith, becoming His people.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people. Jer 31:33

God begins a work in us that we could never do on our owm, apart from Him.

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-11-16T07:22:02-0600

fhansen said:
Matthew 7:21-23 refers to many, not all.

IF I stated Matt. 7:21-23 it should have been MARK 7:21-23. There is a similar almost identical statement in MATT. 15:18-20

BUT since you brought it up, YES, Matt. 7:21;23 applies to ALL of us as well. Either at the end of our lives or at the end of this wicked age, enmasse, ala Matt. 25's sheep and goat account or Paul's account of it at the end of 1 Cor. 15.

Funny how we chuck all the stuff that's seemingly against us huh? And then lay them on other people. What kind of method is that anyway?

Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3 ALL state quite the opposite of your claim, from Gods Own Lips

And yes, we all are still sinners and yes, our sin is still "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

SO, who says LORD LORD in that equation? IF you say people, you missed the point again.

Luke 4:41
And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

IT is one of the most obvious matters of the Gospels, Jesus casting out devils from people. YET few believe it to be a fact for themselves. They think they are immune from the tempter in their own minds.

And NO ONE can be further from the truth of the matter. Interestingly ALL of these also want to see our neighbors burned alive forever or eternally annihilated.

Hmmmm? What's up with that I wonder....not

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-11-16T07:29:06-0600

Clare73 said:
Immortality is not eternal life.

But they live forever and that immortality is not eternal? Uh, probably not the case, as stated prior. Immortality IS ETERNAL.

I appreciate your attempt to dig the position out of the hole but it's not working

Clare73 said:
God creates the human spirit in immortality.

God gave people His Spirit. That is what returns to God, as previously cited in Eccl. 12:7 for example. Or as stated by Jesus in Matt. 23:9, Psalm 82:6, or noted by Paul in Acts 17:28-29

It is generally accepted within orthodoxy that all people are in fact God's children, and I accept the position as well.

So should you. Then you might not be so quick to burn our neighbors alive forever.

Clare73 said:
The human spirits of the damned are immortal.

Jesus didn't come to save devils if you are trying to claim people are devils.

You and I are no better and no different than any other given sinner. Romans 3:9, 1 Tim. 1:15

Clare73 said:
Yes, immortality (without ending) of the human spirit comes from God

Yeah, that's why your positional claim is pretty well nonsense.

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