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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

fhansen

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Yes according to the Bible. Where you think I saw the word Elect from ? The Bible!
Of course, but it's not only about the elect, as you put it. It’s not only about those who come and then persevere to the end. God wants all to repent, all to become the elect, IOW, as Paul made clear in his appeal to the Athenians. Also here in 2 Cor 5:20:
"We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God."
 
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Brightfame52

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Of course, but it's not only about the elect, as you put it. God wants all to repent, all to become the elect, IOW, as Paul made clear in his appeal to the Athenians. Also here in 2 Cor 5:20:
"We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God."
Yes salvation is only for the elect. That scripture is only for the chosen of God
 
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fhansen

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Yes salvation is only for the elect. That scripture is only for the chosen of God
Except for the bible, where God wants all to be saved. No one can even know with 100% certainty that they're one of the elect anyway, for that matter.
 
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Fervent

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Similarly, if the Father attempts to ἑλκύω and fails, the failure is external to the verb itself. The verb still means "to haul/drag with decisive force." It is not inherently soft or conditional. Any context of failure is determined by circumstance, not the definition of ἑλκύω. Thus, the term should not be rendered "attract" or "woo" with the understanding of inherent resistibility.
TdNT (Littel Kittle) likely has the most extensive research on terms like this, and their conclusion is as follows; "There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God of Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic. "

Calvinist attempts to turn it into a forceful action fail to understand that context determines meaning, and when it is used in the context of influence on humans the forceful implications are not present.
 

fhansen

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It's not an issue of my understanding. The issue is you're wanting to force me to argue something I haven't argued. Let's make this very simple.

You have said that the drawing of the Father (in John 6:44) can fail, correct?

The drawing of the Father (in John 6:44) makes salvation possible, correct? It enables one to come to Christ.

How is it possible, then, for one to come to Christ, if the Father's act of enabling them, can fail? You keep saying "God provides the ability to come." That contradicts your earlier argument that God's provision of that ability can fail.

We're not talking about whether or not the drawing is effectual in producing faith. As I have repeatedly pointed out to you, my argument that it is has nothing to do with the meaning of ἑλκύω itself. We were talking about the meaning of ἑλκύω. You argued that ἑλκύω in John 6:44 can fail. Yet does not ἑλκύω refer to God's provision of the ability to come? How then is it possible to come, if God's attempt to provide the ability can fail?

I'm not arguing for my point of view right now; I'm critiquing the consistency of yours. I'm trying to show you ἑλκύω means a decisive movement from one position (inability) to another (ability). That does not mean that the movement in view is necessarily from unbelief to irresistible faith. The meaning of ἑλκύω is not the basis of that argument. That is a different argument. What I am focused on right now is trying to show you that your attempt to soften the definition of ἑλκύω does not aid your point of view, nor does it challenge mine.
I see. You don’t even believe what you’re saying here yourself. No alternative makes any sense. It’s not His attempt to provide the possibility, BTW; He really does provide it.

“It is the grace of God that helps the wills of men; and when they are not helped by it, the reason is in themselves, not in God.” St Augustine
 
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fhansen

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Perhaps, my friend, you and I, with our knowledge of Patristics and the history of the early church and our shared sacramental, Trinitarian, iconographic and anti-Nestorian Christianity, and our veneration of the Theotokos, could find something interesting to talk about, if not on this subject, which seems to be a boring attempt to prove Calvinism from the scriptural text, which is impossible (I can’t completely disprove monergism or prove synergism, which is why I am patient with our Lutheran friends although I disagree with them on this issue because of the Fifth Ecumenical Synod and many NT texts), then on a related subject.
I often find myself bowing to your knowledge, Liturgist, especially as it pertains to history and the various denominations. I also find that much is compromised and twisted and diminished when exegesis becomes the whole focal point in knowing the faith. Error is unavoidable where the doctrine of Sola Scriptura prevails.
 
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fhansen

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I'm not sure you're grasping the point of my question: "Can a perfectly holy and righteous being delight in that which is less than perfectly holy and righteous (man), more than that which is (Himself)?"

The question concerns the nature of holiness and righteousness. Perfect holiness and righteousness entail delighting preeminently in what is perfectly holy and righteous. If God's ultimate focus were on man rather than on Himself (that is, if the manifestation of His glory is not what drives His creative and redemptive purposes), then His ultimate delight would be directed toward what is imperfect. By definition, that would be unholy and unrighteous, a contradiction to His perfect nature.
Historic teachings have emphasized that God created the universe “in statu viae", in a state of a journeying, to perfection, a perfection that is possible only to the extent that man comes to and remains in Him. God has a purpose for man, IOW, which goes far beyond merely putting some otherwise obnoxious and sinful fools in heaven and some in hell. His purpose is to make us like Himself, to the extent possible. This is why Jesus is our model, whose image we’re to be conformed to, transformed into. We can thwart that purpose, that telos, or not; we can also participate in it, in His work. And step one is most certainly that we begin to appreciate and delight in perfect holiness and righteousness, to delight in love, to put it best, to delight in Him. But, again, because He is love, He wants more for us than to only worship Him; He wants us to become holy and righteous as well, and to share in the happiness that comes with that. Wanting to become like and imitating the object of our love is true worship. God’s glory is first of all His love, which is far more awesome than His power and might, even.

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt 5:48

“Be holy, because I am holy.” 1 Pet 1:16

A related teaching I've come to appreciate:
398 In that [original] sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God".279
 
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fhansen

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One thing I think I have learned in this discussion. Grammar is just one part of lingustics. It takes more than grammar to get the right interpretation.
Yes, much more. Everyone here in this discussion is sincere, and has faith. And many here, probably most, adhere to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, so that exegesis is king for them-even if and even though they disagree with each other on major points of theology based on Scripture alone. But they'll all have their answers, their particular interpretations, often based on a few isolated passages to support their points of view, and often quite plausibly. Even JWs have some reasonable sounding arguments for some of their positions, “reasoning from Scripture” as they claim.

And a lot of those answers are off-the-shelf, so to speak; they've been formulated and polished or refined over the years for the purpose of apologetics. You're not necessarily hearing from a scholar but from someone who, themselves, has heard from scholars. And, as I've found, two equally erudite scholars can and often do disagree 180 degrees from each other on any of the same points discussed here on these forums. So we see pet, pat answers that seek to resolve theological questions and satisfy the mind, which is certainly a noble enough quest. And some do a decent job of it, while usually generating even more questions, however.

The bible can often appear to be contradictory or vague/ambiguous on some points; it simply isn't always perfectly perspicuous as some prefer to believe, and was never intended or structured as some sort of exhaustive and clearly defined catechism. The bible contains over 30,000 verses covering a wide range of subjects, and anyone can manage to find something there to support their particular POVs. But it doesn't work that way. The church received and taught the gospel before a word of the New Testament was written and that basic faith has a particular character or flavor that is consistent in the ancient churches until today, was attested to by the early fathers, and runs throughout Scripture. It's a particular voice, that reveals the nature and will of God. And that voice, resonating with the heart and soul of the true faith, is often deadened or modified by private human reasoning. Divorced from the church and the historical context of the New Testament writings, we’re often only guessing on the truths of the faith.
 
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Dikaioumenoi

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TdNT (Littel Kittle) likely has the most extensive research on terms like this, and their conclusion is as follows; "There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God of Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic. "
TDNT has several well-known issues among actual Greek lexicographers. Its method is concept-historical and frequently theological rather than strictly lexical. That means its entries often trace interpretive traditions around a word rather than isolate the word's semantic core in Koine usage. So yes, it is extensive, but page count doesn't equal precision. It can and does sometimes import Johannine theology (or an interpretation of it) into its lexical discussion, effectively commenting the text back into the word. It functions more like a commentary than careful lexicography.

Barr's Semantics of Biblical Language is the classic critique (a dismantling, really) of this style of semantic history. Moisés Silva, John Barton, and others have also shown the limits of TDNT's approach. BDAG, Louw-Nida, etc. are corpus-based, usage-driven works that aim for tighter semantic delineation. Hence, their conciseness is a strength. It reflects disciplined lexical method.

As to the quote itself, TDNT is correct to note that ἑλκύω has both literal and figurative uses (e.g. John 18:10, 21:6 literally; John 6:44, 12:32 figuratively). What it misdescribes is the figurative sense: figurative application to persons or will does not by itself strip the verb of its forceful, effectual core. The figurative use shifts the object of the pull (from net or rope to a person), not the verb's basic sense of bringing about movement. This doesn't entail success of the action, but it does mean that failure (in both the literal and figurative senses) requires contextual indication (e.g., John 21:6); that is, "an attempt that may fail" is not implicit in the verb's meaning, and that is not what is "figurative" about the figurative use. Just as "lift" in English still means "raise off the ground" even when someone fails to lift a boulder, ἑλκύω carries an effectual sense; apparent failure in a context is an extra-lexical matter to be proven from context, not assumed as part of the lemma.

So TDNT should be treated as theological commentary; it is the wrong authority if you expect a discipline-level lexical argument about what ἑλκύω means in Koine.

Calvinist attempts to turn it into a forceful action fail to understand that context determines meaning, and when it is used in the context of influence on humans the forceful implications are not present.
You're not representing the Calvinist argument accurately. The claim is not that ἑλκύω must mean "force" in order for the conclusion to follow. The reason Calvinists hold that all who are drawn are saved is grammatical, not because of the semantics of ἑλκύω. The argument is that the grammatical objects of ἑλκύσῃ and ἀναστήσω in John 6:44 are identical. The one who is drawn is the one who is raised. That observation does not depend on a particular interpretation of the verb's "forcefulness." The preoccupation with arguing for a "less forceful" understanding of ἑλκύω frequently leads to this misunderstanding of what the Calvinist argument even is.

More than that, it undermines the critique! Which has been my point in this exchange:

If you build potential failure into ἑλκύω's definition, you introduce a fatal problem for your own reading of John 6:44. The verb answers οὐδεὶς δύναται ("no one is able"), not ἐλθεῖν ("to come"). That is, ἑλκύω describes the enabling act that moves the sinner from inability to ability. So if you say ἑλκύω in John 6:44 can fail, what you're actually saying is that this enabling act itself can fail, in which case the very possibility of coming to Christ collapses. The failure would not lie in a person declining to come after being enabled; the failure would lie in the enabling never having occurred at all. That is a syntactical consequence of your proposed lexical meaning.

So while I understand the theological point you wish to make, attempting to make it from the semantics of ἑλκύω itself is in a way self-defeating. There is inherent "forcefulness" (i.e., a change effected) of ἑλκύω in John 6:44, and this remains consistent with non-Calvinism. It is this: The drawing of the Father effects a change of position from inability to ability.

Again, this doesn't mean ἑλκύω can't fail, but the failure would never be implicit in the verb's meaning. It would always be indicated by context or theology. The semantic core of ἑλκύω, both literally and figuratively, is the effecting of a change of position: movement from one state to another. In John 6:44, the movement in view is precisely the transition from inability to ability. That is the inherent "forcefulness" the verb carries there. We ought to be able to agree that that movement is not thwarted. Likewise, in John 12:32, the movement in view is the transition from a posture of alienation to a posture of presentation before the Son. That is, being brought out of estrangement and set before him. The contexts differ, but the verb's semantic core remains the same: it denotes the effective initiation of a new relational or existential position, not a tentative attempt that may or may not occur (John 12:32 is about the effects of the gospel going out to the nations, not the internal mechanics of a person's salvation).



As to the Calvinist argument that all those drawn will come and be saved, that argument is based in the syntax of John 6:44 -- particularly, how the final clause (κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ) relates to the conditional statement preceding it. It is not based on loading "irresistibility" into the meaning of ἑλκύω. Which means attempts to rebut Calvinism by arguing for a "soft" definition of ἑλκύω tend to just undermine one's own position without actually addressing what the Calvinist argument is.

The conditional statement itself -- no one is able to come unless the Father draws -- tells us only that drawing removes inability. By itself, it does not specify whether all who are drawn come. However, the verse does not end with the condition. There's another clause: and I will raise him up on the last day. This clause stands outside the conditional statement altogether and supplies additional information about the one in view when the condition is fulfilled. The contrapositive makes this clearer:

"If he is able to come to me, then the Father has drawn him, and I will raise him up on the last day."

The future indicative ἀναστήσω predicates a certain outcome of the one who is drawn; that is, the one who has been enabled. The text permits no categorical distinction between "enabled" and "raised." The only coherent interpretation is that the Father's enabling act is effectual: it changes the sinner's state from hostility and inability (Rom. 8:7-8) to receptivity and love for Christ. The coming that follows is genuine, free, and inevitable because the nature of the enabling is transformative.

Verse 45 reinforces this. The phrase διδακτοὶ θεοῦ, "taught by God," or "God-taught," is a rather rare predicate adjectival construction. It does not refer to a teaching offered; rather, it's a descriptive phrase about those upon whom a divine act has been performed. It refers to the impartation of knowledge, the effect of a divine act.

Verses 37 and 65 also confirm the same. Verse 37 establishes the order clearly: all those given by the Father will come to the Son. Verse 65 restates verse 44 but replaces ἑλκύω with δίδωμι, the same verb used in verse 37, establishing a paradigmatic relationship between the two in this context. In other words, "drawing" and "giving," in this context, refer to the same divine action. Thus verse 37 says explicitly what verse 44 implies syntactically: "All that the Father gives (draws to) me will come to me."
 
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Dikaioumenoi

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I see. You don’t even believe what you’re saying here yourself. No alternative makes any sense. It’s not His attempt to provide the possibility, BTW; He really does provide it.

“It is the grace of God that helps the wills of men; and when they are not helped by it, the reason is in themselves, not in God.” St Augustine
Huh?
 
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Fervent

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TDNT has several well-known issues among actual Greek lexicographers. Its method is concept-historical and frequently theological rather than strictly lexical. That means its entries often trace interpretive traditions around a word rather than isolate the word's semantic core in Koine usage. So yes, it is extensive, but page count doesn't equal precision. It can and does sometimes import Johannine theology (or an interpretation of it) into its lexical discussion, effectively commenting the text back into the word. It functions more like a commentary than careful lexicography.

Barr's Semantics of Biblical Language is the classic critique (a dismantling, really) of this style of semantic history. Moisés Silva, John Barton, and others have also shown the limits of TDNT's approach. BDAG, Louw-Nida, etc. are corpus-based, usage-driven works that aim for tighter semantic delineation. Hence, their conciseness is a strength. It reflects disciplined lexical method.
This sounds like an unfounded presumptive attack, rather than a substantive critique. Louw-Nida is far more often theologically driven in its definitions, particulary because of their reliance on biased historical sources rather than dealing with the source material itself.
As to the quote itself, TDNT is correct to note that ἑλκύω has both literal and figurative uses (e.g. John 18:10, 21:6 literally; John 6:44, 12:32 figuratively). What it misdescribes is the figurative sense: figurative application to persons or will does not by itself strip the verb of its forceful, effectual core. The figurative use shifts the object of the pull (from net or rope to a person), not the verb's basic sense of bringing about movement. This doesn't entail success of the action, but it does mean that failure (in both the literal and figurative senses) requires contextual indication (e.g., John 21:6); that is, "an attempt that may fail" is not implicit in the verb's meaning, and that is not what is "figurative" about the figurative use. Just as "lift" in English still means "raise off the ground" even when someone fails to lift a boulder, ἑλκύω carries an effectual sense; apparent failure in a context is an extra-lexical matter to be proven from context, not assumed as part of the lemma.
None of this is relevant, and instead appears to be a pretext to force fit your pre-arrived at understanding rather than dealing with the contextual usage.
So TDNT should be treated as theological commentary; it is the wrong authority if you expect a discipline-level lexical argument about what ἑλκύω means in Koine.
and your whole argument is theologically driven, particularly in your failure to recognize the role of context in meaning and instead seeming to cling to a word-concept fallacy of meaning.
You're not representing the Calvinist argument accurately. The claim is not that ἑλκύω must mean "force" in order for the conclusion to follow. The reason Calvinists hold that all who are drawn are saved is grammatical, not because of the semantics of ἑλκύω. The argument is that the grammatical objects of ἑλκύσῃ and ἀναστήσω in John 6:44 are identical. The one who is drawn is the one who is raised. That observation does not depend on a particular interpretation of the verb's "forcefulness." The preoccupation with arguing for a "less forceful" understanding of ἑλκύω frequently leads to this misunderstanding of what the Calvinist argument even is.
In order for the Calvinist conclusion to follow, sure. But not for it to make sense in the context of the passage. All you're doing is imposing your theological baggage onto the word rather than actually presenting a grammatical argument. It's abusive of how languages actually work, and fails to carry force with anyone who isn't set on arriving at your conclusion.
 
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Dikaioumenoi

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This sounds like an unfounded presumptive attack, rather than a substantive critique.
And you're clearly just firing off a response just to have something to say. I would encourage you to engage the actual literature on the subject. Nothing I said is novel or even controversial among scholars who work in lexical semantics. A simple Google search will confirm everything I said.

Barr's critique of TDNT is one of the most widely cited methodological corrections in 20th-century biblical studies. Silva's work on lexical method (see Biblical Words and Their Meaning) demonstrates why concept-historical studies produce semantic anachronism and illegitimate totality transfer. You're dismissing fifty years of scholarship just to have something to say in reply. That's a great witness for your position.

As for the claim that Louw-Nida is "far more theologically driven" than TDNT, that is demonstrably false. Louw-Nida is explicitly usage-based and organized by semantic domains drawn from actual corpora, not by theological trajectories or concept-histories. Kittel explicitly states that TDNT is a theological project. Read the preface.

None of this is relevant, and instead appears to be a pretext to force fit your pre-arrived at understanding rather than dealing with the contextual usage.
Establishing a verb's semantic core is always relevant before discussing its contextual function. Context determines usage, not lexical meaning. Pretending the lexical question is irrelevant demonstrates a clear misunderstanding of how language works.

Nothing in my explanation "force fit" a conclusion, and I wager you won't actually attempt to show otherwise. It was a summary of standard lexical method: (1) identify the semantic core; (2) distinguish meaning from contextual effect; (3) prevent theological conclusions from being smuggled into the lexeme itself. If you want to argue that the context of John 6 modifies, nuances, or limits the force of ἑλκύω, then make that case from the text. But right now, the dismissive nature of your comments only signals that you don't want to deal with the steps necessary to make a coherent argument.

and your whole argument is theologically driven, particularly in your failure to recognize the role of context in meaning and instead seeming to cling to a word-concept fallacy of meaning.
This is not even coherent. My argument did three things that are simply standard lexical method (as noted above). That is the opposite of a "theologically driven" approach. You're just throwing out assertions, again just for the sake of responding.

If you think I've confused lexeme and concept, then quote the sentence where I equate ἑλκύω with a theological construct. The word-concept fallacy occurs when someone loads a term with an entire doctrinal trajectory. I argued against that very move in TDNT's handling of ἑλκύω. Likewise, context has a central role in my analysis. I explicitly stated that success or failure of the action is determined by context, not by the lexeme itself -- contra your argument.

In order for the Calvinist conclusion to follow, sure. But not for it to make sense in the context of the passage. All you're doing is imposing your theological baggage
Your entire response has been very disappointing and underwhelming. You'll have to do a lot better for me to read and respond again. Your claim that I've "imposed theological baggage" on ἑλκύω is exceptionally absurd, given what I actually argued (most of which you simply ignored). What I actually did was isolate the term's semantic core and show how the syntax of John 6:44 functions independently of any theological overlay. The grammatical point -- the identity of the objects of ἑλκύσῃ and ἀναστήσω -- does not depend on whether you interpret the verb as "forceful" or "an attempt." That's the argument itself, and disputing the verb's semantics misses it entirely.
 
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Fervent

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And you're clearly just firing off a response just to have something to say. I would encourage you to engage the actual literature on the subject. Nothing I said is novel or even controversial among scholars who work in lexical semantics. A simple Google search will confirm everything I said.

Barr's critique of TDNT is one of the most widely cited methodological corrections in 20th-century biblical studies. Silva's work on lexical method (see Biblical Words and Their Meaning) demonstrates why concept-historical studies produce semantic anachronism and illegitimate totality transfer. You're dismissing fifty years of scholarship just to have something to say in reply. That's a great witness for your position.
I'm not dismissing "50 years of scholarship", I'm dismissing your assessment of said scholarship.
As for the claim that Louw-Nida is "far more theologically driven" than TDNT, that is demonstrably false. Louw-Nida is explicitly usage-based and organized by semantic domains drawn from actual corpora, not by theological trajectories or concept-histories. Kittel explicitly states that TDNT is a theological project. Read the preface.
Those semantic domains are highly subjective, and a lot of the usage data was drawn from English glosses.
Establishing a verb's semantic core is always relevant before discussing its contextual function. Context determines usage, not lexical meaning. Pretending the lexical question is irrelevant demonstrates a clear misunderstanding of how language works.
Sure, but lexical indexing is a misconception of how language functions. Context determines meaning, because meaning is not a function of individual words but a function of whole passages. Semantic mapping can be helpful, but ultimatelly it is context that sets the meaning.
Nothing in my explanation "force fit" a conclusion, and I wager you won't actually attempt to show otherwise. It was a summary of standard lexical method: (1) identify the semantic core; (2) distinguish meaning from contextual effect; (3) prevent theological conclusions from being smuggled into the lexeme itself. If you want to argue that the context of John 6 modifies, nuances, or limits the force of ἑλκύω, then make that case from the text. But right now, the dismissive nature of your comments only signals that you don't want to deal with the steps necessary to make a coherent argument.
The method itself is built on a flawed conception of meaning that provides undue weight to individual words, and goes wrong at the first step by artificially restricting the semantic range.
This is not even coherent. My argument did three things that are simply standard lexical method (as noted above). That is the opposite of a "theologically driven" approach. You're just throwing out assertions, again just for the sake of responding.
You did no such thing, you determined the conclusion and then read matched the grammatical argument to your conclusion.
If you think I've confused lexeme and concept, then quote the sentence where I equate ἑλκύω with a theological construct. The word-concept fallacy occurs when someone loads a term with an entire doctrinal trajectory. I argued against that very move in TDNT's handling of ἑλκύω. Likewise, context has a central role in my analysis. I explicitly stated that success or failure of the action is determined by context, not by the lexeme itself -- contra your argument.
You've confused the basic element of meaning by reducing the meaning of words to their lexical form.
Your entire response has been very disappointing and underwhelming. You'll have to do a lot better for me to read and respond again. Your claim that I've "imposed theological baggage" on ἑλκύω is exceptionally absurd, given what I actually argued (most of which you simply ignored). What I actually did was isolate the term's semantic core and show how the syntax of John 6:44 functions independently of any theological overlay. The grammatical point -- the identity of the objects of ἑλκύσῃ and ἀναστήσω -- does not depend on whether you interpret the verb as "forceful" or "an attempt." That's the argument itself, and disputing the verb's semantics misses it entirely.
That isolate is exactly why your method is flawed, because it is only within the overall context of the passage that the force of the word can be determined not by atomizing the text and introducing foreign frameworks via lexical methodology.
 
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Dikaioumenoi

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I'm not dismissing "50 years of scholarship", I'm dismissing your assessment of said scholarship.

Those semantic domains are highly subjective, and a lot of the usage data was drawn from English glosses.

Sure, but lexical indexing is a misconception of how language functions. Context determines meaning, because meaning is not a function of individual words but a function of whole passages. Semantic mapping can be helpful, but ultimatelly it is context that sets the meaning.

The method itself is built on a flawed conception of meaning that provides undue weight to individual words, and goes wrong at the first step by artificially restricting the semantic range.

You did no such thing, you determined the conclusion and then read matched the grammatical argument to your conclusion.

You've confused the basic element of meaning by reducing the meaning of words to their lexical form.

That isolate is exactly why your method is flawed, because it is only within the overall context of the passage that the force of the word can be determined not by atomizing the text and introducing foreign frameworks via lexical methodology.
I skimmed your latest set of assertions. I will not waste my time responding point by point because the pattern is clear: claims are being offered without engaging the actual argument or evidence I've presented. It is not my burden to disprove your assertions; it is yours to substantiate them. If you want a substantive discussion, raise focused, textually and methodologically grounded objections. Broad dismissals and unfounded accusations do not qualify as argument and do not merit serious engagement.

To clarify the stakes: your position on ἑλκύω implies that, syntactically, John 6:44 leaves coming to Jesus potentially impossible -- a consequence of your view I have already argued and that you have ignored. You have also ignored that the semantics of ἑλκύω are irrelevant to the Calvinist argument itself. Once again, you are sidestepping the actual issue and fishing for something to latch onto just to have a reply. I am not going to play that game. Until you offer a focused, substantive objection that engages these points seriously, this conversation is over.
 
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Fervent

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I skimmed your latest set of assertions. I will not waste my time responding point by point because the pattern is clear: claims are being offered without engaging the actual argument or evidence I've presented. It is not my burden to disprove your assertions; it is yours to substantiate them. If you want a substantive discussion, raise focused, textually and methodologically grounded objections. Broad dismissals and unfounded accusations do not qualify as argument and do not merit serious engagement.

To clarify the stakes: your position on ἑλκύω implies that, syntactically, John 6:44 leaves coming to Jesus potentially impossible -- a consequence of your view I have already argued and that you have ignored. You have also ignored that the semantics of ἑλκύω are irrelevant to the Calvinist argument itself. Once again, you are sidestepping the actual issue and fishing for something to latch onto just to have a reply. I am not going to play that game. Until you offer a focused, substantive objection that engages these points seriously, this conversation is over.
It most certainly does not leave any such impossibility. There's no need for the success of the drawing to depend on force in order for it to create the possibility of success. It is only within a Calvinist framework that the need for force is required, because the act of being drawn is presented as a sufficient grounds for coming to Jesus. You are imposing your conclusion onto the text, and then engaging in grammatical puffery as if that is argumentation.
 
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