what is Calvinism answer to how God works?

JohnB445 said:

Is the position on Calvinism, that God created people who he would never save, and they will live a short meaningless life only to burn in hell for all eternity with never having even the slightest possibility of avoiding it?

Click to expand...

Yes. John Calvin himself wrote that not all are created in the same condition, but "eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others."

JohnB445 said:

Suppose you came to the conclusion Calvinism was true all along, are you fine with that, and would it bother you?

Click to expand...

It would bother me because it would mean God wasn't a fair/just God. Creating someone just to spend eternity in torment and there is nothing they could have even done about it makes God out to be evil.

Look up "the arsonist mentality".

The thing about Calvinism, though, is that it is a logically necessary system once the first petal of the TULIP is presumed true. Which is why it took root in Western Christianity, both among Calvinists in the Protestant camp and Jansenists in the Catholic camp, but was quickly cut down when it cropped up in the East by the efforts of Cyril Lucaris...because the Eastern understanding stems from John Cassian's reply to Pelagius, not Augustine's.

JohnB445 said:

what concerns me, if Calvinism is saying that some will become believers but then fall away because they were never going to be elect, it's like giving pretending to give someone an amazing gift only to take it away like some kind of joke.

I don't know if that is what Calvinism is teaching, but if it is then how would a Calvinist be sure of their eternal destiny if they have no idea if they were elect?

Click to expand...

Same thing with Jehovah's Witnesses and their 2 class system. The people who think they are apart of the 144,000 just think they are. And it seems the Calvinist is the same for whatever reasons they have, it comes down to belief that they just think they are. The entire idea that God chooses who is saved and who isn't and there is nothing anyone can do about it, has a lot of issues due to Gods nature. I don't think for a second that Calvinists are correct in this idea.

JohnB445 said:

Is the position on Calvinism, that God created people who he would never save, and they will live a short meaningless life only to burn in hell for all eternity with never having even the slightest possibility of avoiding it? The other position is everyone has a free will choice to choose or reject God, and because they chose to reject, they go to hell and it's their fault.

Click to expand...

Hello John, yes, the "L" in Calvinism's TULIP acrostic (as well, really, the other two middle "petals") teach (in various ways) that the atonement that the Lord Jesus secured for us on the Cross is "limited" to the saints alone.

That said, here are a couple of things to consider about that.


I'll stop here and wait for your reply (to the two questions that I just asked you above, that is).

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

JohnB445 said:

Is the position on Calvinism, that God created people who he would never save, and they will live a short meaningless life only to burn in hell for all eternity with never having even the slightest possibility of avoiding it?

The other position is everyone has a free will choice to choose or reject God, and because they chose to reject, they go to hell and it's their fault.

Suppose you came to the conclusion Calvinism was true all along, are you fine with that, and would it bother you?

And I wanted to give my stance on the matter, I have no idea, and I'm honestly not too concerned I'm more focused on just living the way God would like me to live than figuring out how everything works. If I find out it's true I accept it and move on, I am a believer so I have no reason to be concerned if its true.

But if Calvinism is saying that some believers are not elect and predestined to hell and we HAVE NO IDEA WHO IT IS, and i find that out then yes i would be really concerned.

Click to expand...

Delvianna said:

Yes. John Calvin himself wrote that not all are created in the same condition, but "eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others."


It would bother me because it would mean God wasn't a fair/just God. Creating someone just to spend eternity in torment and there is nothing they could have even done about it makes God out to be evil.

Click to expand...

JohnB445 said:

what concerns me, if Calvinism is saying that some will become believers but then fall away because they were never going to be elect, it's like giving pretending to give someone an amazing gift only to take it away like some kind of joke.

I don't know if that is what Calvinism is teaching, but if it is then how would a Calvinist be sure of their eternal destiny if they have no idea if they were elect?

Click to expand...

All these are "strawmen" representations of Calvinism, and, as far as I can tell, based on presumptions concerning the equal validity of the generic sentient creature in the Creator's intentions. FAIR??? Can you describe God's respect for those mere creatures who demand recognition on God's level of sentience?

Calvinism doesn't say that anyone lives a short meaningless life. He doesn't create anyone JUST TO spend an eternity in torment. We all serve God's purposes, which are clearly enough defined concerning the ultimately condemned in such places as Romans 9, particularly in verses 21-23, for us to have some understanding of the validity of the notion that he would (and did) make some for the purpose of destruction. Understand God's —let's call it "primary"— reason for creating, after all: The Bride, the Body of Christ, the Children of God, the Dwelling Place of God and God With Us. His Glory. Contrast this with the illogical notion that the self-existent, omnipotent, first causer, God can be subject to facts beyond himself—facts that he did not cause!
1. Nobody is saying that the destruction of the reprobate is his primary cause in making them.
2. Nobody is saying that he doesn't use them for other purposes, just as he uses all things he made.
Serving God's purposes is more meaningful than any of us could hope to deserve!

Eternal damnation foreordained by God is a mere statement of fact: God created and what he set out to accomplish by that creating will be accomplished, and nothing else can happen, because as I said above, God came before absolutely all things: He is not a co-resident with us within a larger reality. Consider that omniscient God, who, by the description of some, "looked down the halls of time and saw that some would condemn themselves", yet, knowing that would happen, he created anyway, those facts which he knew would result in that very thing —logically, then, he INTENDED that those things ALL happen.

Calvinism doesn't say that some become believers but then fall away. See the "Perseverance of the Saints" of TULIP. If they fall away, they were at most pretenders, many even to the point of fooling themselves. If (having seen their failings, their disobediences,) one isn't sure where they stand on the question, they should see to it —repent and obey— and find themselves as always depending on the glorious mercy of God. We know without a doubt that Almighty God will accomplish whatsoever he set out from the beginning to do. One need not be sure of one's destiny but to glory in the fact that God is more than pleased with what he is making, and to rest in his everlasting mercy. Our destiny is altogether dependent on his mercy, on his plan, and on his use of us. THAT is the only safe place, solid and secure, independent of my fickle emotion-driven ignorant foolish self-important decisions. My end is according to God's choice—not mine. (No, I did not say I don't choose—as a matter of fact, I insist that those God ordained for mercy sooner or later do indeed all choose!)

Now, this does not mean that the condemned do not deserve what they've got coming. Remember, they are at enmity with God at the core, regardless of how they think they regard him. They don't even know him. The condemning fact that should make us all fall to our knees is that even though they may insist otherwise, the reprobate also choose —even those who have fooled themselves thinking they chose life— in that they have chosen, as always, at enmity with God. They are indeed without hope.

So then, it does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. This life is not about us and our well-being. It is about Christ. It is by, about and for God.

JohnB445 said:

Since I have not yet studied this, I don't know how to answer this question until I do.

maybe I am not understanding correctly, is Calvinism teaching that nobody can be certain they have salvation? Because how does someone know if they are elect or not?

If you tell me, it's because they believe in Jesus, then how do we explain them leaving the faith and losing belief? Unless they lied and never believed and said they did. I don't understand how someone can be a Calvinist, and have any idea if they are saved or not.

Does Calvinism teach it is possible for someone to believe, but not be saved because they are not the elect? or is this not possible?

Click to expand...

It is worth some study that the born again do, (as long as their sins don't have them feeling condemned), have the Spirit of God witnessing to their spirit, that they are indeed the Children of God. (Romans 8:16) —Just a note here: Romans 8 is a significant read as to the need for that witness. It is not we who convince ourselves of our salvation, but the mercy of God.

JohnB445 said:

Since I have not yet studied this, I don't know how to answer this question until I do.

Click to expand...

Hello again John, that's fair enough, and I'll try to give you some useful information/insights whenever I feel that I am able to, so make whatever points/ask whatever questions you'd like to, whatever comes to mind as we look at all of this

JohnB445 said:

maybe I am not understanding correctly, is Calvinism teaching that nobody can be certain they have salvation? Because how does someone know if they are elect or not?

Click to expand...

None of us can see the heart, not even Calvinists , so the only way that we can know if a person is numbered among God's elect is by knowing whether they have come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ or not.

As far as whether Calvinism teaches that a believer can have assurance/know that they are saved or not, yes, that is certainly part of what Calvinism teaches (because the Bible teaches it .. e.g. 1 John 5:13).


Here's what the Westminster Confession of Faith, Part 18, has to say about the Assurance of Salvation (this is a Presbyterian / Reformed confession, and it is, specifically, what Calvinists teach and believe:


As long as you are there, you may also want to scroll back to Part 17 of the WCF, The Perseverance of the Saints, and see what the Confession has to say about that too, as Assurance and Perseverance go together in many respects.

JohnB445 said:

If you tell me, it's because they believe in Jesus, then how do we explain them leaving the faith and losing belief? Unless they lied and never believed and said they did. I don't understand how someone can be a Calvinist, and have any idea if they are saved or not.

Click to expand...

Again, a Calvinist knows if someone is saved or not the same way that any other Christian does, and election (which is a doctrine that God included in the Bible as a means of comfort for HIs saints, not fear) is based upon/assumed in accordance with that same understanding (of who is and who isn't "saved").

As far as someone who claims to be a believer eventually rejecting the Savior and leaving the faith goes, Calvinism teaches the "Perseverance of the Saints", or perhaps better, the "Preservation of the Saints" (IOW, that all who have come to true, saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will certainly endure/persevere in the faith to the end, because God will make sure that we do ). Again, this is taught by Calvinism because this is what the Bible teaches.

In quick summation, we/believers "persevere" in the faith because God "preserves" us in the faith .. e.g. John 10:27-28; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25, just like we believe that He will in the age to come (in Heaven/on the New Earth).

On the other hand, if a person who claims to be a believer chooses to leave the faith at a later time, Calvinism, again, along with the Bible, teaches that such a person was never truly saved to begin with (even though they may have believed that they were) .. e.g. 1 John 2:19; Matthew 7:22-23, 13:3-9, 18-23 cf Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43.

This is why it is important for all believers to make sure that we really and truly are, in the faith. In fact, we are commanded to do so, yes .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 13:5.

JohnB445 said:

Does Calvinism teach it is possible for someone to believe, but not be saved because they are not the elect? or is this not possible?

Click to expand...

No, all who truly believe and are saved are always numbered among God's "elect".

I hope that helps a bit. Additional questions? Please don't hesitate to ask them (though I probably will not be able to get to them until tomorrow evening at this point)

God bless you!!

--David

JohnB445 said:

can you give me a video I can watch or videos to help me understand? I don't mind if they are over an hour long.

Click to expand...

Truly, understanding begins with the Doctrine of God proper —that is, the theology of just what and who God is— which brings about the understanding of his absolute being, his sovereignty, and the fact that he is the causer and the beginning of all fact, and his burning purity and purpose (among many other things). Life is about him. Reality is his 'invention', and absolutely depends on him. He is subject to nothing but himself.

That said, the best videos I've seen on that, and some others, more directly on what you are asking, are by RC Sproul, though there are many many other sources. Here's a couple that might serve some of both purposes:

Mark Quayle said:

Calvinism doesn't say that anyone lives a short meaningless life. He doesn't create anyone JUST TO spend an eternity in torment.

Click to expand...

That is the out come of their teaching. "eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others." Is a literal John Calvin quote. So the implications of that quote would be essentially that God created people TO spend eternity in torment if God was never going to select them in the first place.

Mark Quayle said:

—that is, the theology of just what and who God is—

Click to expand...

Which is precisely where Calvinism goes wrong, because the Calvinist view of God is marked with pride. It totally misses the God that humbled Himself to save His enemies, subjecting Himself to a shameful death for the sake of those who had strayed. Calvinism totally misses the God of love, and instead pictures a tyrant who is obsessed with His own "glory".

St_Worm2 said:

Hello John, yes, the "L" in Calvinism's TULIP acrostic (as well, really, the other two middle "petals") teach (in various ways) that the atonement that the Lord Jesus secured for us on the Cross is "limited" to the saints alone.

That said, here are a couple of things to consider about that.

1) Do you believe that God knows what's going to happen long before it actually happens (just like the Bible tells us that He does) and that He is able, thereby, to "declare the end from the beginning"?​

​

Isaiah 46​

9 "I am God, and there is no other; ​

I am God, and there is no one like Me, ​

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, ​

And from ancient times things which have not been done, ​

Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, ​

And I will accomplish all My good pleasure"​

​

2) Do you agree with Protestantism's "other position" (or systematic theology), Arminianism, that God looks down through a tunnel of time (so to speak) and "chooses" or "elects" unto salvation those who He sees (via His "foreknowledge") responding positively to the Gospel message?​

I'll stop here and wait for your reply (to the two questions that I just asked you above, that is).

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

T - Total Depravity​

U - Unconditional Election​

L - Limited Atonement​

I - Irresistible Grace​

P - Perseverance of the Saints​

Click to expand...

God exists throughout human time at the same time, so there really is no past or future for God, so when we talk about the future, it is only future for us and not God.

It is not that God knows what future you will chose in the future (suggesting the future, is also God’s future), but God knows the free will choices you did make in the future (it is history for God).



The reason God knows a free will choice you will make tomorrow is because you already made that choice for the God which exists at the end of time, so with God being outside of time the God at the end of time is communicating (within Himself) to the God of today the choices you made tomorrow.

Yes, tomorrow’s choice has not been made as far as you are concerned but has been made as far as God is concerned.

Time is totally “relative” for God and for the last 100 years now, time has been shown to be relative, and nothing has even gone against the Theory of Relativity.

Think for a moment about this: If you got an actual video recording of a free will choice a man in China made one hours from now, that choice is set in history, so he cannot make any other choice, yet does that mean the choice will not be a free will choice? You cannot get in touch with him to change anything in the next hour. What you have is the history of his choice ahead of time and history does not keep the choice from being a free will choice.

The idea of a “Block Universe” is held by many non-Christian scientist, since it would explain a lot.