Vatican stops use of titles for Mary

Fervent · 2025-11-09T09:11:36-0600

Always in His Presence said:
How about staying on point?

The term is co-redemptrix - not assistant to the Savior.

I think the Roman Catholic Church is doing the right thing personally.

What, am I not allowed to have a little fun?

Co-manager is ambiguous. It could mean equivalent, or it could be a lesser title. Depends on whether the other is manager or also co-manager. So is Jesus co-redeemer or redeemer? That'll tell you whether co-redemptrix is a lesser title or an equivalent one.

kuwn · 2025-11-09T09:19:50-0600

Fervent said:
What, am I not allowed to have a little fun?

Co-manager is ambiguous. It could mean equivalent, or it could be a lesser title. Depends on whether the other is manager or also co-manager. So is Jesus co-redeemer or redeemer? That'll tell you whether co-redemptrix is a lesser title or an equivalent one.

Where in the Bible is Mary called a redemptrix? Sorry, but I am not familiar with Catholic theology.

Always in His Presence · 2025-11-09T09:49:00-0600

kuwn said:
Where in the Bible is Mary called a redemptrix? Sorry, but I am not familiar with Catholic theology.

No where - in fact she was not referred to as that for hundreds of years.

chevyontheriver · 2025-11-09T09:50:23-0600

Always in His Presence said:
What is someone is titled co-manager? What does that mean?

Could mean a 50-50 equal manager. But we Catholics aren't pretending Mary is anything other than a derivative power in anything. So you can go ahead and try to force your understanding on something where it does not apply. Or try to understand it as used by actual Catholic theology. It's up to you. You do have that theology degree after all.

Always in His Presence · 2025-11-09T09:52:16-0600

Fervent said:
What, am I not allowed to have a little fun?

Perhaps you should indicate that you are not serious about a post then?

Fervent said:
Co-manager is ambiguous.

Not in the business world - there is no ambiguity.

Fervent said:
It could mean equivalent, or it could be a lesser title. Depends on whether the other is manager or also co-manager. So is Jesus co-redeemer or redeemer? That'll tell you whether co-redemptrix is a lesser title or an equivalent one.

Jesus is our Redeemer - singular - solo - the only.

He does not need, nor have an assistant - not even His mom.

The Liturgist · 2025-11-09T09:53:44-0600

RileyG said:
Makes sense it's no longer use since the Church indeed teaches we are saved by Christ and only Christ (as well as the Holy Trinity as a whole) is divine...

Indeed, and the Mother of God herself was saved by her Son, a paradox explored by much of the Eastern Orthodox and other ancient hymnography about her.

So even as we have hymns which pray for her to save us (which are actually praying for her to pray for her son to save us, but are abbreviated for the sake of convenience), we have other hymns which stress how her salvation came from her giving birth to the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, who put on our human nature, so that God could dwell among us incarnate. Thus in the Son of Man the fullness of God dwelt bodily.

Or as the hymn Ho Monogenes, used in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox liturgy and in the Eastern Catholic liturgies, and most likely composed by Mor Severus of Antioch, puts it,

Only-Begotten Son and Immortal Word of God,
Who for our salvation didst will to be incarnate of the holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary;
Who without change didst become man and was crucified;
Who art one of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit:
O Christ our God, trampling down death by death, save us!

Fervent · 2025-11-09T09:54:57-0600

Always in His Presence said:
Perhaps you should indicate that you are not serious about a post then?

The reference clearly was missed on you.

Always in His Presence said:
Not in the business world - there is no ambiguity.

Yeah, and the disambiguation works the way I explained. If there are two co-managers, they are equal. If there is a manager and a co-manager, the manager is senior to the co-manager.

Always in His Presence said:
Jesus is our Redeemer - singular - solo - the only.

So Mary as co-redemptrix is a lesser title. Glad we got that sorted.

Always in His Presence said:
He does not need, nor have an assistant - not even His mom.

No one said He does, the title is more an indication of her status as first among the believers.

Valletta · 2025-11-09T10:55:15-0600

kuwn said:
Where in the Bible is Mary called a redemptrix? Sorry, but I am not familiar with Catholic theology.

Catholics are not Bible-only.

Always in His Presence · 2025-11-09T11:53:57-0600

Fervent said:
So Mary as co-redemptrix is a lesser title. Glad we got that sorted.

I support your right to believe that -

it differs from both Scripture and now the Roman Catholic Church

Have an issue - take it up with the pope

Always in His Presence · 2025-11-09T11:59:14-0600

chevyontheriver said:
Could mean a 50-50 equal manager. But we Catholics aren't pretending Mary is anything other than a derivative power in anything. So you can go ahead and try to force your understanding on something where it does not apply. Or try to understand it as used by actual Catholic theology. It's up to you. You do have that theology degree after all.

I'm only quoting what the Vatican said and the pope agreed with. I figured they would actually know actual Roman Catholic Theology - especially since the Author is DDF prefect Cardinal Víctor Manuel Fernández and authorized by the Pope.

Seems your issue is with them.

I actually read Mater Populi Fidelis and linked to the actual document. I encourage you to read what is says.

concretecamper · 2025-11-09T15:23:57-0600

Fervent said:
How about Assistant to the Regional Manager?

I think that Co-Pilot is a better example.

concretecamper · 2025-11-09T15:26:10-0600

kuwn said:
Where in the Bible is Mary called a redemptrix? Sorry, but I am not familiar with Catholic theology.

Where in the Bible does it say Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Trinity?

The Liturgist · 2025-11-09T15:38:48-0600

concretecamper said:
I think that Co-Pilot is a better example.

Except remember, the co-pilot can relieve the captain and take over the controls if he believes the captain has become incapacitated, or prevent the flight from taking off if he believes the captain or aircraft is unsafe to fly, under the principles of crew resource management.

It’s no longer like Robert Stack in The High and the Mighty; indeed I have an amusing memo to co-pilots at American Airlines from the 1940s which completely clashes with the roles and responsibilities they now enjoy at present.

Thus on the basis of CRM, co-pilot is no longer a good analogy. The seniormost flight attendant, sometimes called the Purser, or Cabin Services Director on British Airways back in the day, might be a better analogy, in that the Blessed Virgin Mary makes sure everyone, including the angels and other saints (who I suppose under this analogy we could liken to cabin crew), pay attention when her Son is speaking.

Since with CRM, the Holy Trinity really becomes more like the Captain, First Officer and Second Officer, except the Second Officer or Flight Engineer is now an extremely rare position with the retirement of most older 747s, DC-10s, and the last of the 727 and DC-8 freighters.

That said, to be clear, in engaging with the airliner crew metaphor at all I am making a huge leap and all of these metaphors fall short of the precise technical language used to describe the Holy Trinity and the relationship of Christ our Lord, God and Savior, the Incarnate Logos, to His Father and to us, and the role and purpose of our most blessed and glorious lady Theotokos and ever Virgin Mary.

concretecamper · 2025-11-09T15:54:01-0600

The Liturgist said:
Except remember, the co-pilot can relieve the captain and take over the controls if he believes the captain has become incapacitated, or prevent the flight from taking off if he believes the captain or aircraft is unsafe to fly, under the principles of crew resource management.

In the example, I doubt the pilot would become disabled.

concretecamper · 2025-11-09T15:56:55-0600

Despite what the original poster claimed, the Vatican DID NOT STOP the use of titles for Mary. Here is just a few examples as shown in the CCC

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

kuwn · 2025-11-09T16:46:44-0600

concretecamper said:
Where in the Bible does it say Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Trinity?

Jesus is NOT the "2nd person" of the Trinity. All three Members of the Godhead are co-equal. You are not reading the right scholars.

concretecamper · 2025-11-09T17:33:45-0600

kuwn said:
Jesus is NOT the "2nd person" of the Trinity. All three Members of the Godhead are co-equal. You are not reading the right scholars.

Hmm, if you say so.

The fruits of Sola Scriptura with no authoritative teaching.

Jipsah · 2025-11-09T18:52:00-0600

concretecamper said:
I think most who don't agree with the Title Co-Redemptrix view it as a title of equality with Jesus.

Yep, and that's ungood. Thinks of it this way: A co-pilot is also flying the plane. A co-author also wrote the book. A co-conspirator also conspirered, and a co-defendant is also on trial. But the VBM didn't also redeem. Redemption as solely the work of our Lord.

concretecamper said:
That is an incorrect view. iMO, the Church should combat the misinformation rather than retreat from the Title.

I disagree. The Title has a connotation isn't at all appropriate.

Jipsah · 2025-11-09T19:10:44-0600

Jipsah said:
Co-pilot is still one of the pilots, and on a long run he's going to be doing the flying a goodly portion of the time.

Anyway, the term co-redeemer creates more confusion than understanding, and on that basis alone it ought to be dropped.

concretecamper · 2025-11-09T20:21:33-0600

Jipsah said:
Redemption as solely the work of our Lord

Redemption is impossible without our Lord, but I am sure there are people who YOU (with His Grace) brought to Him through your witness or example. So in a sense, you are a Co

As I said earlier, and the responses prove me correct, it is misconception thay people brissle against.

Vatican stops use of titles for Mary

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Jesus is the only Way

Well-Known Member

Jesus is the only Way

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Jesus is the only Way

Jesus is the only Way

I stand with Candice.

I stand with Candice.

Traditional Liturgical Christian

I stand with Candice.

I stand with Candice.

Newbie

I stand with Candice.

Blood Drinker

Blood Drinker

I stand with Candice.

Similar threads