Did the Jews Introduce Morality to the Ancient World?

No.

timf said:

If one considers ethics to an an agreed upon set of rules for conduct such as the code of Hammurabi and other ancient laws, one might consider "morality" as going beyond conduct to motives for behavior such as the danger of "coveting". One might even ask if philosophies such as Stoicism were influenced by Jewish law.

There are elements of ethics in Jewish law as well as proscriptions for activities to remind them of the God they were supposed to remember. However, one can find elements of morality beyond don't steal because you might be punished to don't steal because it is wrong to hurt someone else.

One might even say that God used Israel to introduce morality such that people would start doing less harm to others. One might then see in Christianity and advance in that the idea of even doing good for others is introduced.

Interesting possibilities.

Click to expand...

At best, you could argue that the Jews elevated morality from an offense adjudicated by men, to one adjudicated by God.

timf said:

If one considers ethics to an an agreed upon set of rules for conduct such as the code of Hammurabi and other ancient laws, one might consider "morality" as going beyond conduct to motives for behavior such as the danger of "coveting". One might even ask if philosophies such as Stoicism were influenced by Jewish law.

There are elements of ethics in Jewish law as well as proscriptions for activities to remind them of the God they were supposed to remember. However, one can find elements of morality beyond don't steal because you might be punished to don't steal because it is wrong to hurt someone else.

One might even say that God used Israel to introduce morality such that people would start doing less harm to others. One might then see in Christianity and advance in that the idea of even doing good for others is introduced.

Interesting possibilities.

Click to expand...

God's laws, including the Ten Commandments, were/are a reflection of His own character, love, justice, and holiness. By living according to these principles, Israel was meant to demonstrate God's way of life to surrounding nations.

A "Light to the Nations": Israel was chosen to be a "light to the Gentiles" and a "kingdom of priests," standing in contrast to other nations. Their obedience was intended to make them a "marvel of prosperity" before the world, showcasing the blessings of a life lived in cooperation with God's principles.

Objective Morality: is rooted in God's word and unchanging principles. The law given to Israel at Sinai was a clear, written expression of this eternal moral code.

A Conditional Covenant: The promises and blessings offered to Israel were conditional upon their faithfulness and obedience. When they failed to live by the law and disobeyed, they experienced curses instead of blessings, serving as an example of the consequences of forsaking God's moral standards.

timf said:

If one considers ethics to an an agreed upon set of rules for conduct such as the code of Hammurabi and other ancient laws, one might consider "morality" as going beyond conduct to motives for behavior such as the danger of "coveting". One might even ask if philosophies such as Stoicism were influenced by Jewish law.

There are elements of ethics in Jewish law as well as proscriptions for activities to remind them of the God they were supposed to remember. However, one can find elements of morality beyond don't steal because you might be punished to don't steal because it is wrong to hurt someone else.

One might even say that God used Israel to introduce morality such that people would start doing less harm to others. One might then see in Christianity and advance in that the idea of even doing good for others is introduced.

Interesting possibilities.

Click to expand...

From a moral rules perspective, I don't think there's anything in the Torah that wasn't present, in some form, in legal and moral/ethical codes that substantially predate it (by multiple hundreds of years).

Other rules invoked deities as transcendental sources. Other legal and moral codes contained moral precepts beyond just lists of infractions and punishments.

The 42 Laws of Maat/Ma'at are Egyptian ethical/moral precepts supposedly derived from the goddess who was the personification of justice, truth and morality. They are at least 250 years older than the Torah and contain instructions like:

I have wronged none, I have done no evil.
I have terrorized none
I have not polluted myself
I have not acted with arrogance
I have not closed my ears to truth
I have not felt sorrow without reason
I have not pried into the matters of others

In a similar vein, the edicts of the Pharaoh Haremhab/Horemheb invoke a god and claim divine justice, although this is somewhat circular as the Pharaohs considered themselves and their forebears divine.

The Code of Ur-Nammu invokes two gods, proclaims divine rule and then lists the laws. Likewise, the Code of Lipit-Ishtar claims it was derived by the King (Lipit-Ishtar) from the wisdom of the gods to establish justice for the betterment of the people.

timf said:

If one considers ethics to an an agreed upon set of rules for conduct such as the code of Hammurabi and other ancient laws, one might consider "morality" as going beyond conduct to motives for behavior such as the danger of "coveting". One might even ask if philosophies such as Stoicism were influenced by Jewish law.

There are elements of ethics in Jewish law as well as proscriptions for activities to remind them of the God they were supposed to remember. However, one can find elements of morality beyond don't steal because you might be punished to don't steal because it is wrong to hurt someone else.

One might even say that God used Israel to introduce morality such that people would start doing less harm to others. One might then see in Christianity and advance in that the idea of even doing good for others is introduced.

Interesting possibilities.

Click to expand...

I think morals are universal and have always been there as long as humans have a conscience. The bible says we knew the law before it was written. So it makes sense that all these written moral codes are coming from this basic human knowledge.

But I do think that not every moral code is the same and there may be good reasons. Some are obviously not the same and include what we would consider morally wrong to the basic human knowledge of morals. Like you say coverting and stealing other peoples stuff.

But I think we can define even greater detail of the reasoning and perhaps deeper psychological, sociological, experiential and even spiritual aspects relating to human behaviour that may give insight into why some codes or morals are better or more in line with human nature than others.

I have done pretty deep research into meta ethics and get the gist of the main religious ideas from the worlds religion. In some ways the middle eastern religions can be one block as opposed to Asian and European and western religions. There are all sorts of variations within these including the Nordic gods, the Greek gods ect. There are many ancient religions that are Paganistic.

In some ways the old testament religious or ritual practice comes from pagan beliefs. The idea of sacrificing to the gods I am sure was around before Abraham. Most of what the old testament belief encompasses was around before Abraham and Moses.

But this also makes sense in that humans already had in them the knowledge of God and the law and ways of expressing this. If there was not already the idea of sacrificing to gods then Abrahams sacrifice to the one true God would not make sense.

So in this way I think Gods laws and belief revealed to the prophets is God declaring 'hey you know all this worshipping and moralising your doing here I AM'. The true God and law among all the ways humans are seeking and worshipping.

So I think on that basis we can dioscover other ways the old testament though strange and seemingly contradictory today. May actually offer some deeper insights into humans and the different ways religion can relate to who we are and our relationship to God or the gods.

I like perspectives that come from outside religion and looking into this whole phenomena and overall human perspective such as from psychology, anthropology or other behavioural sciences. I think this can reveal some truths as to why at least the west as opposed to other religions went the path of the Judeo Christian belief rather than other beliefs.

timf said:

If one considers ethics to an an agreed upon set of rules for conduct such as the code of Hammurabi and other ancient laws, one might consider "morality" as going beyond conduct to motives for behavior such as the danger of "coveting". One might even ask if philosophies such as Stoicism were influenced by Jewish law.

There are elements of ethics in Jewish law as well as proscriptions for activities to remind them of the God they were supposed to remember. However, one can find elements of morality beyond don't steal because you might be punished to don't steal because it is wrong to hurt someone else.

One might even say that God used Israel to introduce morality such that people would start doing less harm to others. One might then see in Christianity and advance in that the idea of even doing good for others is introduced.

Interesting possibilities.

Click to expand...

And then there is also the biblical stories of God instructing israelites to kill the women and children.

rambot said:

And then there is also the biblical stories of God instructing israelites to kill the women and children.

Click to expand...

Someone must have hacked into your account. Under your avatar It says you're Christian.

Chesterton said:

Someone must have hacked into your account. Under your avatar It says you're Christian.

Click to expand...

That's correct.

timf said:

God killed everyone on earth except eight people once. God told Israel to wipe out those in Canaan after letting the have 400 years to stop killing their children. (there might be a warning fr us in that)

It would be unwise if you are aware of God's wrath to hold him in contempt.

Click to expand...

I'm not holding Him in contempt. I'm holding the ideas in your OP in contempt.

timf said:

God killed everyone on earth except eight people once. God told Israel to wipe out those in Canaan after letting the have 400 years to stop killing their children. (there might be a warning fr us in that)

Rom_2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

It would be unwise if you are aware of God's wrath to hold him in contempt.

Click to expand...

Interesting that genocide is the default for a deity that is supposedly omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient.

Gene2memE said:

Interesting that genocide is the default for a deity that is supposedly omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient.

Click to expand...

And, certain followers would want you believe, brought morality to humans.

timf said:

If one considers ethics to an an agreed upon set of rules for conduct such as the code of Hammurabi and other ancient laws, one might consider "morality" as going beyond conduct to motives for behavior such as the danger of "coveting". One might even ask if philosophies such as Stoicism were influenced by Jewish law.

There are elements of ethics in Jewish law as well as proscriptions for activities to remind them of the God they were supposed to remember. However, one can find elements of morality beyond don't steal because you might be punished to don't steal because it is wrong to hurt someone else.

One might even say that God used Israel to introduce morality such that people would start doing less harm to others. One might then see in Christianity and advance in that the idea of even doing good for others is introduced.

Interesting possibilities.

Click to expand...

Everyone's always had morality. Many pagans admired virtue, even while they could practice some things we find reprehensible. And they differed from people to people, some are better than others. I'd rather have lived in the Greco-Roman world than in Carthage or amongst the Aztecs or Mayans. Look at the appendix to the C. S. Lewis book The Abolition of Man - Appendix - Illustrations of the Tao.

I think pre-Jewish people lived in a kind of dream world where their moral and religious ideas were often vague and fanciful. They knew they should be religious, but couldn't express why. The Jews told us the real reason we should be moral and good.

Chesterton said:

Everyone's always had morality. Many pagans admired virtue, even while they could practice some things we find reprehensible. And they differed from people to people, some are better than others. I'd rather have lived in the Greco-Roman world than in Carthage or amongst the Aztecs or Mayans. Look at the appendix to the C. S. Lewis book The Abolition of Man - Appendix - Illustrations of the Tao.

I think pre-Jewish people lived in a kind of dream world where their moral and religious ideas were often vague and fanciful. They knew they should be religious, but couldn't express why. The Jews told us the real reason we should be moral and good.

Click to expand...

You think societies before the Jews didn't have any idea of what their moral boundaries were?

rambot said:

You think societies before the Jews didn't have any idea of what their moral boundaries were?

Click to expand...

I don't understand the question.

I believe Jews recognize that there is a universal law that was given to Noah. It is said to be implicit in Genesis 9:1-17 and some even agree that Jesus and Paul were preaching a universal moral law for the Gentiles ( matched with Matthew 9:16-19, Romans 13:8-10! etc.). There is overlap with the 10 commandments obviously here ( Deuteronomy 5:11-21, Exodus 20:1-17).


The concept of the universal law given to Noah:


The view of 17th c. Jewish theologian, Jacob Emden:




Views like those of Emden claim that Jesus and Paul were not evangelizing the Jews but were preaching a compatible but distinct moral law given to Noah to the Gentiles. Of course, I disagree in that the Gospel was preached to everyone ( Romans 1:16-17 etc.).

Nonetheless, I do believe Emden’s attitude was clearly an example of the golden rule ( Matthew 7:1-12, especially Matthew 7:12) which the Lord says is the law and prophets. I also believe St. Paul is mentioning this in Romans 3:21-25 as what is necessary for us as sinners to realize & do when receiving the Gospel and to preach it.

I believe Emden’s view fails to see the evangelical basis of the Gospel but rightly, inadvertently or not, convicts antisemitism. Emden has the right view of the law & prophets ( the golden rule) but lacks the Gospel. On the other hand, the golden rule has often been neglected when the Gospel was preached to nonbelievers.

Probably it can be argued that the Jews preserved the moral law when the 10 commandments were given to Moses. The moral law didn’t disappear among the Gentiles at various individual levels ( Romans 2:1-16) but St. Paul previously noted that on the larger social level, it was a shambles ( Romans 1:18-25).

Lukaris said:

I believe Jews recognize that there is a universal law that was given to Noah. It is said to be implicit in Genesis 9:1-17 and some even agree that Jesus and Paul were preaching a universal moral law for the Gentiles ( matched with Matthew 9:16-19, Romans 13:8-10! etc.). There is overlap with the 10 commandments obviously here ( Deuteronomy 5:11-21, Exodus 20:1-17).


The concept of the universal law given to Noah:

Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The view of 17th c. Jewish theologian, Jacob Emden:

https://eweb.furman.edu/~ateipen/ReligionA45/Emden.html

Views like those of Emden claim that Jesus and Paul were not evangelizing the Jews but were preaching a compatible but distinct moral law given to Noah to the Gentiles. Of course, I disagree in that the Gospel was preached to everyone ( Romans 1:16-17 etc.).

Nonetheless, I do believe Emden’s attitude was clearly an example of the golden rule ( Matthew 7:1-12, especially Matthew 7:12) which the Lord says is the law and prophets. I also believe St. Paul is mentioning this in Romans 3:21-25 as what is necessary for us as sinners to realize & do when receiving the Gospel and to preach it.

I believe Emden’s view fails to see the evangelical basis of the Gospel but rightly, inadvertently or not, convicts antisemitism. Emden has the right view of the law & prophets ( the golden rule) but lacks the Gospel. On the other hand, the golden rule has often been neglected when the Gospel was preached to nonbelievers.

Probably it can be argued that the Jews preserved the moral law when the 10 commandments were given to Moses. The moral law didn’t disappear among the Gentiles at various individual levels ( Romans 2:1-16) but St. Paul previously noted that on the larger social level, it was a shambles ( Romans 1:18-25).

Click to expand...

It would seem even from the Old Testament of God revealing Himself to Abraham and to the Hebrews. The pther prophets passing down the promise of covenant. The coming of Moses and the Exodus all feeding into Gods relationship to the Jews that sets up the giving of the law.

The point in which the giving of the law has come at the end of a long, long period of defining Gods people and and that God is a Rightous moral judge and that we humans have strayed. In some ways Gods laws was the biginning of bringing order from chaos in the world.

But when you follow its own revelation it leads to Christ. Each stage is a step towards Christs morality. But first the law had to be established and Christ would make no sense unless first it was shown that all including the Jews were sinful and fallen short and that God is the true God over all other gods.

timf said:

If one considers ethics to an an agreed upon set of rules for conduct such as the code of Hammurabi and other ancient laws, one might consider "morality" as going beyond conduct to motives for behavior such as the danger of "coveting". One might even ask if philosophies such as Stoicism were influenced by Jewish law.

There are elements of ethics in Jewish law as well as proscriptions for activities to remind them of the God they were supposed to remember. However, one can find elements of morality beyond don't steal because you might be punished to don't steal because it is wrong to hurt someone else.

One might even say that God used Israel to introduce morality such that people would start doing less harm to others. One might then see in Christianity and advance in that the idea of even doing good for others is introduced.

Interesting possibilities.

Click to expand...

No. The Jews introduced a Prophetic Revision of the morality humanity all too often is prone to defaulting to: I.E. doing what is right in their own eyes.

timf said:

If one considers ethics to an an agreed upon set of rules for conduct such as the code of Hammurabi and other ancient laws, one might consider "morality" as going beyond conduct to motives for behavior such as the danger of "coveting". One might even ask if philosophies such as Stoicism were influenced by Jewish law.

There are elements of ethics in Jewish law as well as proscriptions for activities to remind them of the God they were supposed to remember. However, one can find elements of morality beyond don't steal because you might be punished to don't steal because it is wrong to hurt someone else.

One might even say that God used Israel to introduce morality such that people would start doing less harm to others. One might then see in Christianity and advance in that the idea of even doing good for others is introduced.

Interesting possibilities.

Click to expand...

Morality, the law, was given to the Jews primarily so that, through their experience, the world could definitively come to know that sin exists, and that we all participate, failing to live up to a righteousness that “ought to be”. It explains why we live in a messed up world with all its division, competition, destruction, and harm, with its lack of love, IOW. It demonstrates that something is missing. With that bit of knowledge now, man can be all the more primed and ready to accept God’s next step “in the fullness of time”, the advent of His Son who provides the answer to the problem of sin and death. Man needs God, first of all, before he can be as he was created to be, before he can love as he was created to love. That's what's missing.