Is purgatory a Biblical or extra biblical teaching?

Always in His Presence said:

Except the earliest canon that was widely accepted almost 200 years before the church was Westernized.

Catholic stands for universal -

Roman Catholic is the denomination seated in Rome.

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The canon was widely accepted and approved by Pope Damasus in the late 4th Century.

Catholic dose stand for universal.

Roman Catholic is the name protestants coined after the reformation. They called the Catholic Church the Roman Catholic Church. So history shows, The Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church is the same Church.

Always in His Presence said:

incorrect - 172ad was the earliest - while is was still a church based in Jerusalem. - then moved to Constantinople close to 200 years later

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Proof please. Please cite a reference that shows the canon of Scripture was set in 172 AD

Always in His Presence said:

Correct - it still does stand for the Universal church - see the forum policies.

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I can care less about forum policies. I care about the truth. People can say they are members of the Catholic Church, go ahead, be my guest. But that doesn't mean they are

Always in His Presence said:

Incorrect, it became the Roman Catholic Church when Christianity was legalized and moved from Constantinople to Rome.

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Proof please. Please cite a reference that backs up your claim.

It may have been referred to as The Church in Rome but it wasn't called the Roman Catholic Church

Always in His Presence said:

The Roman Catholic Church?

Absolutely yes.

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What about the Maronite Catholic Church, which still prays in Aramaic?

Even the Catholic church claims this is a doctrine from tradition and not scripture.

1 Cor 3 makes no mention at all of a "person" being purged or burned. It talks about the teaching of a person being purged away (from the church) if that teaching is found to be incorrect.

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Lukaris said:

I have a Catholic New American Bible that lists 1 Corinthians 3:15 & other scripture as references to purgatory in the doctrinal index. ( ISBN 0-89942-950-5).

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and yet not one word in 1 Cor 3 about a person being burned after death, not one word about someone suffering after dying, while dead, not one word about praying them out of the not-mentioned place of torment in the entire chapter.

Lukaris said:

Purgatory, or a middle state of souls, suffering for a time on account of their sins, is shown by those many texts of Scripture which affirm that God will render to every man according to his works,

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Rev 20 says that the wicked are resurrected then judged then cast into the lake of fire and burned according to their works, the deeds done in the body. saying nothing about suffering while dead, or suffering in death that they can be accepted into heaven.

2 Cor 5:10 speaks of everyone being judged but says nothing about people suffering while dead., as a means/mechanism for getting them dusted off and cleaned up to enter heaven.

Lukaris said:

so that such as die in lesser sins shall not escape without punishment, 2 Mc 12, 43-46; Mt 5, 25f: 12, 32; Lk 12, 58f; 1 Cor 3, 15: 1 Pt 3, 18-20; 1

Jn 5, 16: Rv 5, 3. 13.

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John 5, John 16, Rev 5, Rev 3, Rev 13 says nothing about people suffering while dead., as a means/mechanism for getting them dusted off and cleaned up to enter heaven.

2 Mac 12:43-46 makes it clear that no benefit at all realized apart from the resurrection

Matt 5: 25f: 12, 32; Lk 12, 58f; 1 Cor 3, 15: 1 Pt 3, 18-20Mt 5, 25f: 12, 32; Lk 12, 58f; 1 Cor 3, 15: 1 Pt 3, 18-20
says nothing about people suffering while dead., as a means/mechanism for getting them dusted off and cleaned up to enter heaven.
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As for proof for the argument that there is an entire category of doctrines within the Catholic church that fit into the "from Catholic tradition" category rather than "defined in scripture" category.

We have this:


AI search for Catholic doctrines based on tradition rather than defined in scripture include:

"Catholic doctrines based on Sacred Tradition (unwritten teachings of the apostles) rather than being explicitly detailed in Scripture alone include
the Assumption of Mary, her perpetual virginity, infant baptism, the specific structure of bishops, priests, and deacons, and the sacrificial nature of the Mass.

"Other doctrines and practices rooted in Sacred Tradition include the belief that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven, her perpetual virginity, the practice of infant baptism, apostolic succession, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, prayers for the dead, and the tripartite structure of the clergy (bishops, priests, and deacons)."

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"Examples of doctrines based on tradition alone

• The Assumption of Mary: The belief that Mary was assumed into heaven body and soul is a doctrine derived from Sacred Tradition, with no specific scriptural reference.
• The Real Presence of the Eucharist: The belief in the physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist is supported by tradition, as evidenced in early Christian writers.
• The celebration of Sunday: The practice of gathering for worship on Sunday, the Lord's Day, is traced back to early Church tradition.
• Certain liturgical practices: Some prayers and rituals, such as the veneration of saints, the use of holy water, and the Mass itself, were established by the Church over time.

Other examples of traditions

• Priestly celibacy: The discipline of priests not being married is a tradition of the Catholic Church.
• Prayers for the dead: This practice, dating to ancient times, is based on tradition rather than a direct biblical command

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My point in reporting that list above is not to argue against doctrines in this thread. Rather it is to establish proof of the fact that such tradition based doctrines do exist in the Catholic church.

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Beliefs and doctrines found in tradition, not defined in scripture

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• The papacy:
  The concept of the Pope as the head of the Church and the successor to Saint Peter is a tradition based on the interpretation of scriptures like Matthew 16:18.
• Marian Dogmas:
  Beliefs such as the Assumption of Mary (her bodily taking into heaven) and her Perpetual Virginity are not explicitly stated in the Bible, though the Catholic Church considers them part of Sacred Tradition.
• Transubstantiation:
  The doctrine of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is rooted in scripture, but the specific term and full explanation are rooted in tradition.
• Purgatory:
  The existence of purgatory is a doctrine developed from tradition and its role in a state of final purification, which is based on biblical concepts about being cleansed from all sin before entering heaven.
• Infant baptism:
  While baptism is biblically based, the practice of baptizing infants is an early church tradition and not explicitly detailed in the Bible.
• Priestly celibacy:
  The tradition that priests are not permitted to marry is a discipline developed over time and is not found in the Bible.

examples of traditions about Mary not defined in the Bible

quote from that site above

"
There are four Marian teachings (also known as dogmas) that Catholics are required to believe about Mary:

1. Mary was a perpetual virgin: she remained a virgin her entire life
2. Mary is the Mother of God (meaning that she gave birth to Jesus, who is fully God and fully man).
3. The Immaculate Conception: Unlike the rest of humanity, Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin. (Again, obviously, Jesus was not conceived with original sin either because he is God, and sin has nothing to do with God.)
4. The Assumption: At the end of her life on earth, Mary was assumed into heaven, body and soul. It parallels Christ’s ascension into heaven.

Are these teachings taught in the Bible? Scripture certainly does not contradict these doctrines, but it does not teach them explicitly, either. Nowhere does the Bible say in plain black and white that Mary was a virgin her entire life.

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Here is a page stating what the Catholic Church teaches on the doctrine of purgatory.

A lot of detail here, a lot of specifics.

Notice how much of it is not at all a detail actually found in the Bible


This is not a problem if one is fine with doctrines based on tradition included in with doctrines actually found in scripture.

So if you want to claim the Ten Commandments are in scripture, well the proof of that is pretty easy.
But if you want to claim that the details you find in that link above for Purgatory, are coming from scripture, you have a difficult road ahead.

Always in His Presence said:

not sure who 'we' are - I have a complete clarity on what comprises canonized scripture.

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Oh? How did you make that determination?

The concept of purgatory is hinted in the Bible, although the word purgatory is not there.

Furthermore, there's a museum in Rome that exhibits the marks that were left by souls from purgatory.

Regarding the idea that 'every Christian truth must be referenced in the Bible', listen to what Dr Steve Ray have to say.

Always in His Presence said:

Really?

• 6th Century – Holy Roman Church: Used in papal documents to emphasize Rome’s primacy.
• 1054 A.D. – Great Schism: Eastern and Western Churches split; “Roman Catholic” begins to distinguish the Western Church from Eastern Orthodoxy.

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Please post references, yes really.

And references that show the term Roman Catholic Church used prior to the reformation. Not the Church of/in Rome, not the Roman Church, please it can't be that hard!!!

Always in His Presence said:

@concretecamper as for canonization:

Old Testament Canonization
• Jewish Roots: The Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) was canonized in stages. The Torah (first five books) was accepted by the 5th century BCE. The Prophets (Nevi'im) followed, and the Writings (Ketuvim) were likely finalized by the 2nd century CE.
• Council of Jamnia (c. 90 CE): this council is often cited as a moment when Jewish leaders affirmed the Hebrew canon, excluding books like Tobit and Maccabees found in the Septuagint (Greek translation).

• Early Recognition: By the 2nd century CE, many Christian communities were using the four Gospels, Acts, and Paul’s letters. However, other texts like Hebrews, Revelation, and James were disputed (called antilegomena).
• Marcion’s Canon (c. 140 CE): Marcion proposed a radical canon excluding the Old Testament and most New Testament writings. His controversial list spurred the church to clarify its own canon.
• Muratorian Fragment (c. 170 CE): This early list from Rome includes most New Testament books but omits some later-accepted ones like Hebrews and James.

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This doesn't back up your claim that the canon of Scripture was settled in 173AD.

Please post references that tell us the canon was styled in 173 AD

Always in His Presence said:

It was part of my studies in obtaining my Masters in Theology and Divinity.

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So traditions of men?

Always in His Presence said:

Yup - purgatory is based on traditions of men.

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And your canon?

Always in His Presence said:

Council of Jamnia (c. 90 CE): this council is often cited as a moment when Jewish leaders affirmed the Hebrew canon, excluding books like Tobit and Maccabees found in the Septuagint (Greek translation).

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I would take issue with this statement. There likely was no council of Jamnia, but rather an academy at Jamnia with a legislative body whose occasion being referenced was whether or not Ecclesiastes or the Song of Solomon made the hands "unclean". There does not appear to be any discussion of the books that make up the apocrypha. Roger Beckwith notes:

Similarly, any inference that the canon was decided by councils must be abandoned. The session at Jamnia was not a council, and the decision it made was not regarded as authoritative: and, in so far as there is a parallel with ecclesiastical councils, it should be noted that the earliest important Christian council to deal with the canon was the third Council of Carthage, as late as ad 397. The role of councils, therefore, was not so much to decide the canon as to confirm decisions about the canon already reached in other ways.

Beckwith, Roger T. The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church and Its Background in Early Judaism. SPCK, 1985, p. 277.