Is purgatory a Biblical or extra biblical teaching?

BobRyan · Thursday at 12:15 PM

Fervent said:
Why would a canon that was established as a response to growing belief in Christianity hold any weight?

so something not in the Hebrew Bible and not in the NT?

eleos1954 · Thursday at 12:51 PM

Always in His Presence said:
Can it be clearly seen in Scripture or is it just something 'alluded' to, but not contextually supported.

For simplicity sake, can I humbly ask that extemporaneous writings and history be minimized (please don't write 1,000 words) and Scripture be emphasized.

Let's start with one verse at a time, discuss the verse contextually and then go to the next - just a suggestion.

One needs to take the Bible as a whole .... the entire bible is the "context"

Always in His Presence · Thursday at 2:57 PM

eleos1954 said:
One needs to take the Bible as a whole .... the entire bible is the "context"

Show me any place in the Bible as a whole where it is clearly shown.

concretecamper · Thursday at 3:09 PM

The same Church that said the Gospel of Matthew is inspired text is the same Church that said there is a purgatory. She came to both conclusions based on the teachings of Christ handed down through the Apostles.

Before anyone can say

Always in His Presence said:
Show me any place in the Bible as a whole where it is clearly shown.

it must first be demonstrated that the Bible contains all truths that a Christian should believe.

So, my question, show me any place in the Bible where it is clearly shown that the Bible contains all truths a Christian should believe.

If that can be done, a meaningful discussion can be had.

Always in His Presence · Thursday at 3:45 PM

concretecamper said:
The same Church that said the Gospel of Matthew is inspired text is the same Church that said there is a purgatory. She came to both conclusions based on the teachings of Christ handed down through the Apostles.

Before anyone can say

it must first be demonstrated that the Bible contains all truths that a Christian should believe.

So, my question, show me any place in the Bible where it is clearly shown that the Bible contains all truths a Christian should believe.

If that can be done, a meaningful discussion can be had.

Understood - thanks for participating.

I was asking about where were find it in Holy Scripture - not what any church teaches as tradition. Purgatory is not found in the Apostles writings - the Epistles either.

I understand the history

Second Council of Lyon (1274): The first official Church council to formally define purgatory as doctrine — teaching that souls “are purged after death” and that “the suffrages of the faithful” (prayers, masses, almsgiving) can help them.
Council of Florence (1439): Reaffirmed and clarified the doctrine.
Council of Trent (1545–1563): Gave the definitive Catholic teaching on purgatory in response to Protestant objections, emphasizing that it exists and that prayers for the dead are effective, though warning against speculative imagery.

I was asking for the scripture.

RamiC · Thursday at 4:04 PM

concretecamper said:
The same Church that said the Gospel of Matthew is inspired text is the same Church that said there is a purgatory. She came to both conclusions based on the teachings of Christ handed down through the Apostles.

So Jesus says so at some point? Or He indicates that there is a purgatory? Where does the Bible record this, which verse or verses?

concretecamper · Thursday at 4:21 PM

Always in His Presence said:
I was asking for the scripture.

I am asking why it has to be explicit in Scripture in order to be a Divinely revealed truth. If you can explain that to me, please do.

If you can't, my answer is "who cares if it's not explicit in Scripture. It is still a Divinely revealed truth."

concretecamper · Thursday at 4:22 PM

RamiC said:
So Jesus says so at some point? Or He indicates that there is a purgatory? Where does the Bible record this, which verse or verses?

See post #27. Can you answer my question?

Always in His Presence · Thursday at 5:02 PM

concretecamper said:
I am asking why it has to be explicit in Scripture in order to be a Divinely revealed truth. If you can explain that to me, please do.

If you can't, my answer is "who cares if it's not explicit in Scripture. It is still a Divinely revealed truth."

Because religious traditions that are not supported by Holy Scripture are extra Biblical. Extra-biblical refers to information or content that exists outside of the Bible, including texts or teachings that are not part of the canonical scriptures.

It is plainly stated in the title of the thread:

Is purgatory a Biblical or extra biblical teaching?

concretecamper · Thursday at 5:06 PM

Always in His Presence said:
Because religious traditions that are not supported by Holy Scripture are extra Biblical. Extra-biblical refers to information or content that exists outside of the Bible, including texts or teachings that are not part of the canonical scriptures.

So what if it's not explicit in Scripture. It doesn't need to be explicit in Scripture for it to be Divine Revelation. Scripture itself doesn't say all Divine Revelation is explicit in Scripture. So as far as I can tell, you are adding to Scripture, a no-no.

So for the sake of argument, let's stipulate that Purgatory isn't taught in Scripture. I still say WHO CARES. You haven't shown me that all Divine Revelation is contained in Scripture.

Fervent · Thursday at 5:57 PM

BobRyan said:
so something not in the Hebrew Bible and not in the NT?

Why should we care about the "Hebrew Bible" which was canonized after the fall of the temple and as a response to the rise of Christianity, sometime around the turn of the 2nd century? Shouldn't we prefer the canon that the first Christians would have followed, and not one set by Rabbinical Judaism?

Dan Perez · Thursday at 6:35 PM

eleos1954 said:
One needs to take the Bible as a whole .... the entire bible is the "context"

And I see this in. the bible. :

# 1 God is speaking to UNBELIEVERS

# 2 God is speaking to Israel

# 3 And God is speaking to the BODY of CHRIST. !!

# 4 Then present your #. 1 your. Argument # 2 Your PREMISE and # 3 your CONCLUSION. !!

And the word PURAGORY. , POPE , and there are many other words NOT in the Greek text !!

dan p

Dan Perez · Thursday at 6:58 PM

concretecamper said:
I am asking why it has to be explicit in Scripture in order to be a Divinely revealed truth. If you can explain that to me, please do.

If you can't, my answer is "who cares if it's not explicit in Scripture. It is still a Divinely revealed truth."

Because it leads people to believe when it is not TRUE !!

dan p

concretecamper · Thursday at 7:30 PM

Dan Perez said:
Because it leads people to believe when it is not TRUE !!

Everything in Scripture is True. However, Scripture is not the sole source of Divine Revelation. If it is, show me in Scripture where it claims that it is.

concretecamper · Thursday at 7:31 PM

Dan Perez said:
And the word PURAGORY. , POPE , and there are many other words NOT in the Greek text !!

Looking for Latin derived words in Greek Text. Good luck :doh:

chevyontheriver · Thursday at 9:23 PM

BobRyan said:
Ok , but on what basis do you believe in it?

I did not find a single Bible text there that says that people suffer some form of torment/suffering after death to make them ready to enter heaven.

ok so then believers in Catherine would have a possible reason for considering Purgatory

from: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Belief

from: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Belief

Purgatorial fire
At the Council of Florence, Bessarion argued against the existence of real purgatorial fire,
and the Greeks were assured that the Roman Church had never issued any dogmatic decree on this subject.
In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common.
Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything
a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397).
Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames,"
and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1).
Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides
the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire.
"Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur",
and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii)
that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life;
"Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta".
How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to
heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops
"to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification',
and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").

Did Augustine believe in Purgatory OR was it a medieval invention? Just wondering. And if Augustine invented it de novo how did he do that?,

Lukaris · Thursday at 9:27 PM

BobRyan said:
Even the Catholic church claims this is a doctrine from tradition and not scripture.

1 Cor 3 makes no mention at all of a "person" being purged or burned. It talks about the teaching of a person being purged away (from the church) if that teaching is found to be incorrect.

I have a Catholic New American Bible that lists 1 Corinthians 3:15 & other scripture as references to purgatory in the doctrinal index. ( ISBN 0-89942-950-5).

Purgatory, or a middle state of souls, suffering for a time on account of their sins, is shown by those many texts of Scripture which affirm that God will render to every man according to his works, so that such as die in lesser sins shall not escape without punishment, 2 Mc 12, 43-46; Mt 5, 25f: 12, 32; Lk 12, 58f; 1 Cor 3, 15: 1 Pt 3, 18-20; 1

Jn 5, 16: Rv 5, 3. 13.

Purifications, law relative to, Lv 12,

chevyontheriver · Thursday at 9:27 PM

Dan Perez said:
And the word PURAGORY. , POPE , and there are many other words NOT in the Greek text !!

dan p

Nor is an 'altar call' in the Bible, nor 'personal savior', or for that matter 'Trinity'.

chevyontheriver · Thursday at 9:33 PM

Lukaris said:
I have a Catholic New American Bible that lists 1 Corinthians 3:15 & other scripture as references to purgatory in the doctrinal index. ( ISBN 0-89942-950-5).

Purgatory, or a middle state of souls, suffering for a time on account of their sins, is shown by those many texts of Scripture which affirm that God will render to every man according to his works, so that such as die in lesser sins shall not escape without punishment, 2 Mc 12, 43-46; Mt 5, 25f: 12, 32; Lk 12, 58f; 1 Cor 3, 15: 1 Pt 3, 18-20; 1

Jn 5, 16: Rv 5, 3. 13.

Purifications, law relative to, Lv 12,

I think if we are 'once saved always saved' and what we do with our lives really doesn't matter, then we are automatically and instantly and painlessly sanctified. But if what we do with our lives matters even a tiny bit then sanctification is a necessary endeavor. Those who are not completely sanctified by the time they die will not enter into the presence of the Lord. How do they get sanctified?

Lukaris · Thursday at 9:59 PM

chevyontheriver said:
I think if we are 'once saved always saved' and what we do with our lives really doesn't matter, then we are automatically and instantly and painlessly sanctified. But if what we do with our lives matters even a tiny bit then sanctification is a necessary endeavor. Those who are not completely sanctified by the time they die will not enter into the presence of the Lord. How do they get sanctified?

I agree that it is in our relationship to the Lord in a life lived by faith ( Romans 1:17) for how long & how we live it. I believe Colossians 1:1-29 ( especially verses 10-24) gives us a great summary of the Lord as our God & Savior, salvation, & living by faith the role of works within it. If someone says to me that they are saved, my understanding is that’s great & keep the faith.

Is purgatory a Biblical or extra biblical teaching?

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from: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Belief​

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Is purgatory a Biblical or extra biblical teaching?

from: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Belief