Who then can be saved?

Dan1988 said:

No, the point is that it's impossible to continue in the faith, without backsliding and falling away. Every single Born again Christian, will backslide and fall away. But thank God He draws us back to Himself every single time, so if salvation was dependant on our efforts to remain faithful and steadfast in the faith, nobody would be saved.

God is the author and finisher of salvation, He chose to save His elect before He created the earth. God wrote the name of every single one of His elect in His book, before He created the world. You simply can't get around that fact, so it was a done deal before time began, and you are wrong to suggest that it's not.

Your idea that some supposed "spark of Gods image, ,still lies within", is nothing more than wishful thinking. I don't mean to pour cold water on your ideas, but they are not supported by any scripture and they are born out of your imagination.
You won't find a single verse in the Bible to support this unbiblical notion. But you will find hundreds confirming the doctrine of total depravity.

As mentioned earlier, the bible is crystal clear that "you can do nothing without God". He must do it all for you, or you will remain dead in your sin forever. And the fact that born again Christians, strive to live in obedience to God, is not a testimony of their strength or ability or determination or faith or anything else of theirs. It's actually evidence that God is working in their lives to conform us, to sanctify us and ultimately transform us into the image of His Son.

Nobody come willingly, we all go kicking and screaming as it contrary to what we want to do. We love our sin by nature, God Word confirms that there are none who seek after Him, and all have gone astray. There is none righteous, no not one.

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You can't even see, or ''live and move and have your being"' without God, and yet He doesn't ask you to acknowledge and believe in Him in order to have physical sight, or in order to live and move and have your being. In order to become righteous, however, you do, indeed,, have to participate and that's Christianity 101, from the beginning. It's never been understood any other way so you're not even fully engaged with the faith to begin with. Pray, study, ask, seek, and knock and you'll eventually be brought around to the full understanding of the truth

fhansen said:

No

Yes

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Yes, and Yes.

I believe what St. Paul explains in Colossians 1:1-29 ( especially verses 10-24) probably bests sums up salvation in Orthodoxy. However long & how we live our life by the Lord’s commandments by His grace we are saved.

BNR32FAN said:

According to this how would you interpret 1 Corinthians 13:1-3, specifically verse 2 in the context of verses 1-3?

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The way I interpret what Paul is saying here is that faith doesn’t necessarily produce good works.

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This is true. Love is the true motivator for good works. Faith is involved as it connects us to the Source of that very love. That love, in other words, blossoms in direct proportion to our nearness to Him. To the extent that we turn to Him in faith and then remain in Him, we will produce much good fruit, John 15:5

A New Dawn said:

Yes, and Yes.

What is Justification? Bible Meaning and Definition

Justification is the declaring of a person to be just or righteous. Being justified is a forensic term, opposed to condemnation. As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as...

www.biblestudytools.com

What is justification? What does it mean to be justified? | GotQuestions.org

What is justification? How can I be justified before God? Why, on the basis of Christ’s death, can God declare us to be righteous?

www.gotquestions.org

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Thank you for the quotes. Yes, there has been a lot of such novel theology written since the Reformers came up with it. Only peripherally related to Christianity, however

Dan1988 said:

I have studied the entire bible and I've never found anything to support your view that "you do indeed have to participate".

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That’s because you’ve read it selectively, through the lens of a novel theology which only allows for half the “equation”. We are debtors for what God has done for us. We must remain in Him, doing His will, responding to His ever available grace with its gift of righteousness. Salvation is a journey, a walk with Him- towards eternity with Him.

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

“When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:20-22

Rom 8:12-14 perhaps brings it together best:
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.”

I appreciate that you had a dramatic conversion experience. That does not mean that you could never turn back away even if improbable in your case

Maria Billingsley said:

My understanding...

Paul is obviously speaking hyperbolic to stress his point that without love , the catalyst of the Gospel of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, faith is but a moot point and becomes basically, nothing meaning it does not exist or even never existed. In other words, faith without love is dead.

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A faith that never existed can’t move mountains. I think what he’s saying is that even a faith strong enough to move mountains is useless without love, which would imply that love isn’t an automatic byproduct of faith. That’s how I read it.

Dan1988 said:

My understanding is that Eastern Orthodox Theology, claims that a saved person can lose his salvation. I reject that view, because Jesus opposed it, when He said in, ---

John 6:39 "all that the Father gives Me shall come to Me Now this is the will of the One having sent Me, that all that He has given Me, I should lose none of it, but will raise it up in the last day.

I'm not sure how the Eastern Orthodox get around this verse which clearly exposes their theology. I'm sure you agree that Jesus is speaking about the "elect of God" here. Who else would have the Father given Him to save, surely not the children of the Devil.

The Roman Catholic & Eastern Orthodox Church, hold to the same theology, which holds to the works based salvation, version of the gospel. While the Protestant Church holds to the grace based gospel. I can find may verses to support the "saved by grace" gospel, but I can't find a single evrse to support the "saved by works" version of the gospel.

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I actually did a video explaining how this verse can’t support eternal security.

Dan1988 said:

My understanding is that Eastern Orthodox Theology, claims that a saved person can lose his salvation. I reject that view, because Jesus opposed it, when He said in, ---

John 6:39 "all that the Father gives Me shall come to Me Now this is the will of the One having sent Me, that all that He has given Me, I should lose none of it, but will raise it up in the last day.

I'm not sure how the Eastern Orthodox get around this verse which clearly exposes their theology. I'm sure you agree that Jesus is speaking about the "elect of God" here. Who else would have the Father given Him to save, surely not the children of the Devil.

The Roman Catholic & Eastern Orthodox Church, hold to the same theology, which holds to the works based salvation, version of the gospel. While the Protestant Church holds to the grace based gospel. I can find may verses to support the "saved by grace" gospel, but I can't find a single evrse to support the "saved by works" version of the gospel.

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I don’t know how we got on works based salvation other than that’s the typical derailment from the real issue. The fact is that Jesus specifically said that some will believe for a while then fall away. And the EOC doesn’t teach that we are saved by works that’s just a misrepresentation of their actual theology.

Dan1988 said:

There are only two kinds of people in the world, those who are alive in Christ and those who are dead in their sin. Those of us who re alive in Christ, are under Gods grace, and those who are dead in their sin are under Gods wrath and judgement. He's angry with them everyday.

God doesn't decide to show His grace or mercy to someone, because they have done some good work or earned merit points. The Bible never teaches that anywhere, because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

So God only shows grace, mercy and love to those He chose to save, the wrath of God abides on the rest. Nobody finds favour with God, through their works.

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Why do you keep bringing up works based salvation? That’s not even remotely associated with the topic of my post.

fhansen said:

This is true. Love is the true motivator for good works. Faith is involved as it connects us to the Source of that very love. That love, in other words, blossoms in direct proportion to our nearness to Him. To the extent that we turn to Him in faith and then remain in Him, we will produce much good fruit, John 15:5

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Amen but this isn’t automatic, it comes thru our cooperation with His will.

Dan1988 said:

No, the point is that it's impossible to continue in the faith, without backsliding and falling away. Every single Born again Christian, will backslide and fall away. But thank God He draws us back to Himself every single time, so if salvation was dependant on our efforts to remain faithful and steadfast in the faith, nobody would be saved.

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Stumbling in sin isn’t falling away. Falling away is turning away from faith in Christ and the gospel, not stumbling in sin. If failing to remain in Christ isn’t an option for believers then John 15:1-7 is a useless message that is describing an impossible scenario and Paul’s message to Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:12 is also a useless message. Both Jesus and Paul were warning their disciples of a real danger, not an impossible scenario.

Dan1988 said:

God is the author and finisher of salvation, He chose to save His elect before He created the earth. God wrote the name of every single one of His elect in His book, before He created the world. You simply can't get around that fact, so it was a done deal before time began, and you are wrong to suggest that it's not.

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The elect were chosen according to God’s foreknowledge. He foresaw those who would choose to believe of their own free will and who would abide in Christ and endure to the end.

Dan1988 said:

As mentioned earlier, the bible is crystal clear that "you can do nothing without God". He must do it all for you, or you will remain dead in your sin forever. And the fact that born again Christians, strive to live in obedience to God, is not a testimony of their strength or ability or determination or faith or anything else of theirs. It's actually evidence that God is working in their lives to conform us, to sanctify us and ultimately transform us into the image of His Son.

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You’re misquoting John 15:4 “without Me you can do nothing”. In what context did Jesus say those words? He said that when He was warning His 11 faithful apostles about the importance of abiding in Him and warning them about the consequences of failing to abide in Him. So the way you’re using that statement here doesn’t make any sense at all. Why is Jesus telling His 11 faithful apostles to abide in Him and bear fruit if it’s not up to them and they have no control over whether or not they abide in Christ or whether they bear fruit or not? And why is He telling them the consequences of failing to abiding in Him in verse 6 if they can’t fail to abide in Him? In Matthew 10:28 Jesus tells His apostles “do not fear those who are able to kill the body but are unable to kill the soul but fear Him who is able to kill both body and soul in hell”. What is the point of that statement?

Dan1988 said:

Nobody come willingly, we all go kicking and screaming as it contrary to what we want to do. We love our sin by nature, God Word confirms that there are none who seek after Him, and all have gone astray. There is none righteous, no not one.

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Romans 3:10-12 is not a literal statement, it’s a proverbial statement. It’s like if I were to say no one writes letters anymore because of email and social media. It’s not intended to be taken literally that not a single person on the planet writes letters anymore, it’s intended to imply that very few people write letters anymore because Paul also wrote that none are righteous, and yet the scriptures specifically state that many people are in fact righteous. Able, Noah, Job, Lot, Abraham, Zachariah, and a few others were specifically said to be righteous men, not to mention Jesus Christ Himself.

Dan1988 said:

I have studied the entire bible and I've never found anything to support your view that "you do indeed have to participate".
Jesus never said "you have to do something", to earn salvation. He said it was a gift, so your view is not based on any Bible doctrine.

Christianity 101 is ---

Ephesians 1:4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

As you can see from the verses above, your "saved by works" version of the gospel, falls down like the tower of Babel, when you shine the light of Gods Word on it.

Salvation is not by works, it is the gift of God and it was settled before the world was made. So you couldn't be further from the truth.

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The elect are chosen according to His foreknowledge, not just randomly or on a whim.

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

"... to obey Jesus Christ .."
... extinguishing most forums , threads and topics, eh?

A New Dawn said:

Justification and sanctification are not the same thing. Justification is a legal term for declaring you righteous. Sanctification is the actual process of being conformed to the image of Christ. Sanctification necessarily follows justification, but they are not the same thing.

You are leaving out important details. Everyone hears the same things taught, but without ears to hear they cannot respond. God has given those he chose for salvation ears to hear. Christ speaks of it often.

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You’re confusing what God did during Christ’s ministry with what He has done after His crucifixion. During Christ’s ministry not everyone was able to hear and understand because they didn’t believe Moses’ writings. These people were not permitted to hear and understand, they were not drawn to Christ. God did this to bring about Christ’s crucifixion. After Christ’s crucifixion Jesus is drawing all men to Himself thru the gospel which is why He gave the Great Commission. This is why in Mark 4 when Jesus gave His explanation of the parable of the soils to His disciples, He said that they are not permitted to understand otherwise they would repent and believe. They were not permitted to understand because it would’ve undermined God’s plan for the crucifixion. The plan was for people to shout “crucify Him!” and that wouldn’t have happened if everyone believed Him. Leighton Flowers does a really good explanation of this idea often called the Judicial hardening of the Jews.

BNR32FAN said:

Amen but this isn’t automatic, it comes thru our cooperation with His will.

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Yes, faith, hope, and love are all gifts of grace…and daily choices.

BNR32FAN said:

A faith that never existed can’t move mountains. I think what he’s saying is that even a faith strong enough to move mountains is useless without love, which would imply that love isn’t an automatic byproduct of faith. That’s how I read it.

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Yes, Augustine put it this way:
Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing.