Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

keras · Thursday at 8:46 PM

Carl Emerson said:
Interesting... Art Katz used to say that the modern State of Israel would be expelled from the land and Jews would return again as a people redeemed in Christ.

Art Katz also said:
'Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath'.

Douggg · Thursday at 9:14 PM

eretz Israel is the land of Israel, the nation of Israel.

The promised land of Israel began when the 12 tribes in their Exodus from Egypt, crossed the Jordan river, to populate the promised land in the areas designated for each tribe. And thus the nation of Israel begun.

Clare73 · Friday at 10:04 AM

keras said:
Art Katz also said:
'Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath'.

The apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Jesus Christ (Lk 10:16) is that the catching up of the saints occurs after the resurrection at the second coming at the end of time.

keras · Friday at 2:09 PM

Douggg said:
eretz Israel is the land of Israel, the nation of Israel.

The promised land of Israel began when the 12 tribes in their Exodus from Egypt, crossed the Jordan river, to populate the promised land in the areas designated for each tribe. And thus the nation of Israel begun.

But they never took over all of the Land given to Abraham. Genesis 15:18, Judges 1: 21-36 and Judges 2:1-3
This will happen when the faithful Christian peoples go to live there after the Lord has cleared and cleansed that entire area.
After the terrible Day of cloud and darkness; Ezekiel 34:11-16

keras · Friday at 2:16 PM

Clare73 said:
The apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Jesus Christ (Lk 10:16) is that the catching up of the saints occurs after the resurrection at the second coming at the end of time.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Prophesies the glorious Return of Jesus, when He will send out His angels to gather those people who kept their faith thru all the things which will happen before that. Matthew 24:30-31
Jesus will then reign on earth for the next thousand years, THERN comes the resurrection / Judgment and the end of time.- Eternity.

Daniel Martinovich · Friday at 9:40 PM

Guojing said:
Would the term "New Jerusalem" be equivalent to the Body of Christ for you, where there is neither Jew nor gentile (Galatians 3:28)?

Yes, especially since the New Jerusalem is an Old Testament doctrine. Here just three of the chapters of a dozen or so in the OT.

The New Jerusalem

The illustrations and symbolism of Revelations New Jerusalem

wordservice.org

Daniel Martinovich · Friday at 10:14 PM

Carl Emerson said:
Yes I agree regarding physical decendants, but I am not sure that the line of Esau are technically Jews.

It seems they were blessed but not chosen...

However spiritually all believers are related to Abraham directly through faith in Christ.

You seem to have grasped what those verses were saying then you seemed to muff it. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what you should notice.

Romans 9:6 And it is not as that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel, are these Israel.
ALL the decedents of Israel are ethnic Israelite's. There are no Esau's or Ishmael's that Israel gave birth too. So here Paul is separating believing Israelite's from unbelieving Israelite's. Why make the distinction? Because there are dozens of chapters of prophecy and promise about the New Jerusalem as I stated in the OP or this below. -

Ephesians 2: 15 .......for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace. 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The next verses are only related to not all who are of Israel are Israel as an example of how this Israel of promise and prophecy would come about. that is supernaturally by promise.
7 Nor because they are seed of Abraham are all children. Rather, “In Isaac your offspring will be named.” 8 That is, the children of the flesh, these are not children of God; but the children of the promise are regarded as offspring. 9 For this is the word of the promise: “At this time I will come, and to Sarah there will be a son.”

Now in chapter eleven he is wrapping it up by saying:
25 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you may not be wise in yourselves: A hardening in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles may come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it has been written:

Just like verses Romans 9:6 ..... For not all who are of Israel, are these Israel...8 That is, the children of the flesh, these are not children of God; but the children of the promise are regarded as offspring. The all Israel shall be saved are believers both Jew and Gentile. But verse 25 are the children of the flesh. Israeli's who are not believers. But God has a plan to turn millions of today's unbelieving Jews into believers as I said in the OP. It does not include apocalyptic end of the world scenario. But mercy, a homeland, providence and the Gospel message.

sovereigngrace · Friday at 10:44 PM

Guojing said:
To be Israel in any way, physical or spiritual, it is not sufficient to have descended from Abraham. Abraham has many children other than with Sarah (Genesis 25:1-4)

You will need to descend from Isaac and Jacob as well. That is what Romans 9:6-13 is about

When God tells Israel he is the God of Israel, he always mention all 3 forefathers, not just Abraham.

We are true Israel today. We are the children of Abraham today. We are the real Jews. We are the circumcision. We are the ones that are located in Zion today. You need to read the New Testament and see that that is a repeated New Testament truth. Race means nothing today. You need to move into the new covenant and see that the old covenant is gone forever. There’s no racial preference. Jews and Gentiles that reject Christ are of their father the devil. Jews and Gentiles that accept Christ are of their Heavenly Father. They are under the wrath of God and Antichrist. Any other gospel is a false gospel. It is another gospel.

sovereigngrace · Friday at 11:00 PM

Guojing said:
As I said, if you read the full passage Romans 9:6-13, instead of just Romans 9:6 alone. Paul is saying that true Israel is not just those who are descended from Abraham (Romans 9:7), its comprised of those that descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

You are using Romans 9:6 alone, without considering the verses after that.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all of the natural and spiritual offspring of Abraham. Esau and Ismael were not.

All mankind from the beginning is either found to be in one of two camps - saved or lost. There is no other company. There has never been any other salvation apart from that found "in Christ." Those that reject Him are found "in Adam." The elect “in Christ" in the Old Testament looked forward to Messiah by faith, the elect “in Christ" in the New Testament look back to Messiah by faith.

sovereigngrace · Friday at 11:03 PM

Daniel Martinovich said:
You seem to have grasped what those verses were saying then you seemed to muff it. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what you should notice.

Romans 9:6 And it is not as that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel, are these Israel.
ALL the decedents of Israel are ethnic Israelite's. There are no Esau's or Ishmael's that Israel gave birth too. So here Paul is separating believing Israelite's from unbelieving Israelite's. Why make the distinction? Because there are dozens of chapters of prophecy and promise about the New Jerusalem as I stated in the OP or this below. -

Ephesians 2: 15 .......for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace. 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The next verses are only related to not all who are of Israel are Israel as an example of how this Israel of promise and prophecy would come about. that is supernaturally by promise.
7 Nor because they are seed of Abraham are all children. Rather, “In Isaac your offspring will be named.” 8 That is, the children of the flesh, these are not children of God; but the children of the promise are regarded as offspring. 9 For this is the word of the promise: “At this time I will come, and to Sarah there will be a son.”

Now in chapter eleven he is wrapping it up by saying:
25 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you may not be wise in yourselves: A hardening in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles may come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it has been written:

Just like verses Romans 9:6 ..... For not all who are of Israel, are these Israel...8 That is, the children of the flesh, these are not children of God; but the children of the promise are regarded as offspring. The all Israel shall be saved are believers both Jew and Gentile. But verse 25 are the children of the flesh. Israeli's who are not believers. But God has a plan to turn millions of today's unbelieving Jews into believers as I said in the OP. It does not include apocalyptic end of the world scenario. But mercy, a homeland, providence and the Gospel message.

Paul shows throughout his teaching that there are two groups within Israel: one faithful and true, the other unfaithful and merely professing. One is known as “the election” (or “the elect”) and the other as the “blinded” or ‘hardened ones’. One is a friend of God, the other is an enemy of His. God shows Himself bound to one, and strongly against the other. Sadly, Dispensationalists back the wrong Israel in their teachings. They choose natural Christ-rejecting apostate Israel, above the elect spiritual remnant in order to justify their false doctrine. In doing so, they miss the whole development of faithful Israel into the New Testament Church.

We see the whole dichotomy between true Israel and false Israel throughout Romans 9-11. Romans 11:7-10 corresponds, “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded [Gr. poroo – hardened]. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them. Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.”

Daniel Martinovich · Friday at 11:09 PM

sovereigngrace said:
Paul shows throughout his teaching that there are two groups within Israel: one faithful and true, the other unfaithful and merely professing. One is known as “the election” (or “the elect”) and the other as the “blinded” or ‘hardened ones’. One is a friend of God, the other is an enemy of His. God shows Himself bound to one, and strongly against the other. Sadly, Dispensationalists back the wrong Israel in their teachings. They choose natural Christ-rejecting apostate Israel, above the elect spiritual remnant in order to justify their false doctrine. In doing so, they miss the whole development of faithful Israel into the New Testament Church.

We see the whole dichotomy between true Israel and false Israel throughout Romans 9-11. Romans 11:7-10 corresponds, “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded [Gr. poroo – hardened]. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them. Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.”

Sounds like you don't agree with my op about the future of the modern nation of Israel.

Guojing · Friday at 11:37 PM

sovereigngrace said:
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all of the natural and spiritual offspring of Abraham. Esau and Ismael were not

That is correct. So my point was, just because one descended from Abraham, that alone is not sufficient to be israel

That was the point Paul was establishing in Roman’s 9:6-13

Guojing · Friday at 11:40 PM

sovereigngrace said:
We are true Israel today. We are the children of Abraham today. We are the real Jews. We are the circumcision. We are the ones that are located in Zion today. You need to read the New Testament and see that that is a repeated New Testament truth. Race means nothing today. You need to move into the new covenant and see that the old covenant is gone forever. There’s no racial preference. Jews and Gentiles that reject Christ are of their father the devil. Jews and Gentiles that accept Christ are of their Heavenly Father. They are under the wrath of God and Antichrist. Any other gospel is a false gospel. It is another gospel.

Is Jacob your father?

Guojing · Friday at 11:52 PM

sovereigngrace said:
Paul shows throughout his teaching that there are two groups within Israel: one faithful and true, the other unfaithful and merely professing. One is known as “the election” (or “the elect”) and the other as the “blinded” or ‘hardened ones’. One is a friend of God, the other is an enemy of His. God shows Himself bound to one, and strongly against the other. Sadly, Dispensationalists back the wrong Israel in their teachings. They choose natural Christ-rejecting apostate Israel, above the elect spiritual remnant in order to justify their false doctrine. In doing so, they miss the whole development of faithful Israel into the New Testament Church.

We see the whole dichotomy between true Israel and false Israel throughout Romans 9-11. Romans 11:7-10 corresponds, “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded [Gr. poroo – hardened]. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them. Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.”

Romans 9:11-13 established that Jacob was the elect. Neither Esau nor him did anything right or wrong at birth but yet God chose Jacob, out of pure grace.

Thus only descendants of Jacob are the elect.

So unless you can claim Jacob to be your father, you are not the elect.

Clare73 · Saturday at 3:51 PM

Guojing said:
Romans 9:11-13 established that Jacob was the elect. Neither Esau nor him did anything right or wrong at birth but yet God chose Jacob, out of pure grace.

Thus only descendants of Jacob are the elect.

So unless you can claim Jacob to be your father, you are not the elect.

Elect to what?

Guojing · Saturday at 7:00 PM

Clare73 said:
Elect to what?

If you read Romans 9:11-13, it tells you "to the purpose of God".

God has a certain purpose for the nation of Israel, as spelt out many times in the scriptures.

Clare73 · Sunday at 10:20 AM

Guojing said:
If you read Romans 9:11-13, it tells you "to the purpose of God".

God has a certain purpose for the nation of Israel, as spelt out many times in the scriptures.

Yes, they gave us the Messiah, whom they then rejected, which separated Israel from God (Ro 11:16-22), where they will remain as long as they remain in rejection of the Messiah (Ro 11:23).

keras · Sunday at 1:53 PM

Guojing said:
God has a certain purpose for the nation of Israel, as spelt out many times in the scriptures.

God's Promises are for the true Israelites of God, The people group, who for now are scattered among the nations and who bear the proper fruit.
NOT that mixed race group who falsely call themselves Israel.

Clare73 · Sunday at 3:40 PM

keras said:
God's Promises are for the true Israelites of God, The people group, who for now are scattered among the nations and who bear the proper fruit.
NOT that mixed race group who falsely call themselves Israel.

God has only one people, those in Jesus Christ.

The true Israelites of God are in Christ by faith in him.

Guojing · Sunday at 9:57 PM

Clare73 said:
Yes, they gave us the Messiah, whom they then rejected, which separated Israel from God (Ro 11:16-22), where they will remain as long as they remain in rejection of the Messiah (Ro 11:23).

Yes, we cannot be the elect today, since Jacob is not our father

Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

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