Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

[SabbathBlessings]

Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD: "Israel is My son, My firstborn.
Hos 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son.

Israel is God's son, His firstborn. If Israel was literal it would mean Adam. Obviously its not literal as it represents God's people.

Who is the true Israel?

Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt,
Mat 2:15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON."

Christ is the true fulfillment of Israel.

Christ is the Vine, we are the branches and Gentiles are grafted into Christ or Israel (God's people) through faith

Gal 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Rom 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles
Rom 11:12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Rom 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

The only way we are part of God's Israel is through faith. Tuning out all of the noise of the world and following what God of the Bible says.

 

[Clare73]

Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD: "Israel is My son, My firstborn.
Hos 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son.
Israel is God's son, His firstborn. If Israel was literal it would mean Adam. Obviously its not literal as it represents God's people.
Who is the true Israel?
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt,
Mat 2:15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON."
Christ is the true fulfillment of Israel.

Christ is the Vine, we are the branches and Gentiles are grafted into Christ or Israel (God's people) through faith

Gal 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Rom 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles
Rom 11:12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Rom 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

The only way we are part of God's Israel is through faith. Tuning out all of the noise of the world and following what God of the Bible says.

God's Israel is all those of the faith of Abraham (Ge 15:6) in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

God's Israel is all those of the faith of Abraham (Ge 15:6) in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

Its faith in Jesus, we receive the promises of Abraham.

We are adopted into the family through faith in Jesus .

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Clare73]

Its faith in Jesus, we receive the promises of Abraham.

It is the same faith as Abraham (in Jesus, the promise, Ge 15:5-6) by which we receive the promises of Abraham.

We are adopted into the family through faith in Jesus .

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

God's Israel is all those of the faith of Abraham (Ge 15:6) in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It is the same faith as Abraham (in Jesus, the promise, Ge 15:5-6) by which we receive the promises of Abraham.

God's Israel is all those of the faith of Abraham (Ge 15:6) in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

Its through faith in Jesus then we receive the promises and part of the family of Israel through the seed of Abraham, but believe what you want.

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Clare73]

Its faith in Jesus then we receive the promises, but believe what you want.

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What part of:
"It is the same faith as Abraham (in Jesus, the promise, Ge 15:5-6) by which we receive the promises of Abraham."
do you not understand?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

What part of:
"It is the same faith as Abraham (in Jesus, the promise, Ge 15:5-6) by which we receive the promises of Abraham."
do you not understand?

That was looking forward in the OC, we are in the NC and we look only to Christ. Abraham had faith in Jesus looking forward, we have the faith in Jesus looking back at the Cross and are grafted into the promises of Abraham through faith in Jesus..

The verse literally says it, not sure why you are taking issue with it, but so be it, doesn't change what it says.

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Clare73]

That was looking forward in the OC, we are in the NC and we look only to Christ. Abraham had faith in Jesus looking forward, we have the faith in Jesus looking back

So?. . ."It is still the same faith as Abraham (in Jesus, the promise, Ge 15:5-6) by which we receive the promises of Abraham."

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So?. . ."It is still the same faith as Abraham (in Jesus, the promise, Ge 15:5-6) by which we receive the promises of Abraham."

If it's the same faith in Christ which is what I said faith in Christ, why even make a mountain out of it unless just looking to cause strife for pleasure, which I want no part of.

I am going to move on, but you be well.

 

[Clare73]

If it's the same faith in Christ which is what I said faith in Christ, why even make a mountain out of it

Why leave out that it's the same faith as Abraham (in Jesus, the promise, Ge 15:5-6) by which we receive the promises of Abraham?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Why leave out that it's the same faith as Abraham (in Jesus, the promise, Ge 15:5-6) by which we receive the promises of Abraham?

If Paul was alive you could ask him, but this is what he said, which is what I quoted. There is no mediator in the NC except for Jesus. Heb 12:24

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Take care

 

[Clare73]

Ask Paul
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul did not omit that it was the same faith as Abraham, for we are Abraham's seed by that faith in Christ.

So why leave out (in post #25) that it's the same faith as Abraham (in Jesus, the promise, Ge 15:5-6) by which we receive the promises of Abraham?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Paul did not omit that it was the same faith as Abraham, for we are Abraham's seed by that faith in Christ.

Paul didn't say that in the Scripture I posted.

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The object of our faith is Jesus Christ. Jesus had not come at the time of Abraham, Abraham believed in the promises of God and we should also have this faith, but the object of our faith is Jesus then we will receive the promises through the bloodline of Abraham.

This will be my last response on this, and I am okay agreeing to disagree.

 

[Carl Emerson]

That refers to the Body of Christ, which is NOT spiritual Israel.

I beg to differ - because Paul clearly makes the distinction between the two Israel's - one of genealogy and one of faith.

The Israel is of faith encompasses all believers both Jew and Gentile with the common spiritual Father Abraham..

 

[Clare73]

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The object of our faith is Jesus Christ. Jesus had not come at the time of Abraham, Abraham believed in the promises of God and we should also have this faith, but the object of our faith is Jesus then we will receive the promises through the bloodline of Abraham.

So as I said, Paul did not omit that it was the same faith as Abraham, for we are Abraham's seed by that faith in Christ.

So why leave out (in post #25) that it's the same faith as Abraham (in Jesus, the promise, Ge 15:5-6) by which we receive the promises of Abraham?

Intellectual honesty?

 

[Carl Emerson]

One reason why folks struggle with this is because they don't understand the Cross is a timeless event spanning history.

Trusting the Character of God to save is the same as trusting the Character of Jesus to save.

Jesus was given the Father's name 'The God who saves'

 

[SabbathBlessings]

One reason why folks struggle with this is because they don't understand the Cross is a timeless event spanning history.

Trusting the Character of God to save is the same as trusting the Character of Jesus to save.

Jesus was given the Father's name 'The God who saves'

Yet when it comes to His own Testimony Exo 31:18, which is a reflection of God's character, which we are called to be like (holy, just and good Rom7:12 perfect Psa19:7) as we were created in God's image and likeness to follow in His footsteps 1 Peter 2:21-23 1John2:6, sadly few believe.

 

[keras]

Interesting thread.
The sticking point as I see it is: The widespread teaching of the redemption and conversion of Jewish Israel. Just as Jesus Returns and after they have experienced the Great Tribulation.
This wrong and unbiblical doctrine, is a vital part of the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church. A theory from the pit of hell, which has fooled many. Jesus said many will be deceived,,, Either the believers in the rapture are deceived , or those who refute it are. But as the Bible never actually states that we Christians will go to live in heaven, therefore the proof of a rapture remains those who grip onto it.
In fact, the proof verses which say the faithful Christian peoples remain on earth during the GT are: Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

Also the proof verses which say how the House of Judah now faces Judgment and punishment and only a small remnant will survive, are many, In the OT and the NT. Luke 19:27, Zephaniah 1:1-18
The truth is that the Jewish State of Israel and all the evil neighbors, will soon be no more. Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 7:14

 

[Carl Emerson]

Interesting thread.
The sticking point as I see it is: The widespread teaching of the redemption and conversion of Jewish Israel. Just as Jesus Returns and after they have experienced the Great Tribulation.
This wrong and unbiblical doctrine, is a vital part of the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church. A theory from the pit of hell, which has fooled many. Jesus said many will be deceived,,, Either the believers in the rapture are deceived , or those who refute it are. But as the Bible never actually states that we Christians will go to live in heaven, therefore the proof of a rapture remains those who grip onto it.
In fact, the proof verses which say the faithful Christian peoples remain on earth during the GT are: Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

Also the proof verses which say how the House of Judah now faces Judgment and punishment and only a small remnant will survive, are many, In the OT and the NT. Luke 19:27, Zephaniah 1:1-18
The truth is that the Jewish State of Israel and all the evil neighbors, will soon be no more. Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 7:14

Interesting... Art Katz used to say that the modern State of Israel would be expelled from the land and Jews would return again as a people redeemed in Christ.

 

[Guojing]

I beg to differ - because Paul clearly makes the distinction between the two Israel's - one of genealogy and one of faith.

The Israel is of faith encompasses all believers both Jew and Gentile with the common spiritual Father Abraham..

As I said, if you read the full passage Romans 9:6-13, instead of just Romans 9:6 alone. Paul is saying that true Israel is not just those who are descended from Abraham (Romans 9:7), its comprised of those that descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

You are using Romans 9:6 alone, without considering the verses after that.