The History of the “Two Laws” Theory in Romans 3:20

Mercy Shown said:

Paul confirms this distinction in Galatians 3:19 — the law “added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come” — clearly referring to the ceremonial/sacrificial law that pointed to Christ’s sacrifice, not to the eternal moral law that defines sin (Romans 3:20; 7:7).

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I must differ with you on this statement. The context of Gal. 3 is referring to the whole law, including what defines sin.
3:17 - the covenant established, the basis of which is the 10 commandments
3:19 - because of transgressions - adultery, coveting, etc. were transgressions
3:22 - "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin" - meaning the 10 commandments define what sin is
3:24 - The "law" (all of it) was our schoolmaster - even now the 10 commandments is our tutor, as it teaches us what sin is
3:25 - We are not under law, even the 10 commandments
3:26 - we are children of God by faith, not by moral commandments
3:29 - we are heirs by promise, not by the old covenant of which the 10 Com. was its basis

The argument in Gal. 3 is that no law comes between us and God, not even the 10 com. "You are not under law, but under grace" means, IMO, that Christ took away all the law (including the 10 com.) that came between us and God, and Christ now stands in its place, in which His promise is to defend us before God.

fhansen said:

Nah, ad populum probably applies better to Protestantism today than it ever did to Catholcism. Either way, popularity doesn't make right-or wrong-whereas history and experience means something-and the Reformers threw both pretty much out the door while speculating with Scriptual guess-work some 15 centuries after the fact, and then often disagreed on it's the meaning anyway. And that beat continues on even louder today. Either way they got the basics wrong. The truth of the faith as recorded in history, not just as it regards Catholicism but all of the early church east and west, is against you.

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lol The arrogance. One day actually study the history of your church away from the propaganda that you are taught.

tdidymas said:

I must differ with you on this statement. The context of Gal. 3 is referring to the whole law, including what defines sin.
3:17 - the covenant established, the basis of which is the 10 commandments
3:19 - because of transgressions - adultery, coveting, etc. were transgressions
3:22 - "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin" - meaning the 10 commandments define what sin is
3:24 - The "law" (all of it) was our schoolmaster - even now the 10 commandments is our tutor, as it teaches us what sin is
3:25 - We are not under law, even the 10 commandments
3:26 - we are children of God by faith, not by moral commandments
3:29 - we are heirs by promise, not by the old covenant of which the 10 Com. was its basis

The argument in Gal. 3 is that no law comes between us and God, not even the 10 com. "You are not under law, but under grace" means, IMO, that Christ took away all the law (including the 10 com.) that came between us and God, and Christ now stands in its place, in which His promise is to defend us before God.

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Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin (break the law 1John3:4) that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The law that was added because of sin cannot the same law that describes sin.

If the Law is the schoolmaster to lead to Christ, what school teacher teaches us to throw out everything learned in school. If the law brings us to Christ does Christ say not to keep God's law and now we can vain His holy name, worship other gods, steal from our neighbor. I can't find this in our Bibles. Jesus taught and lived by example the opposite. Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 John 15:10 Mat 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15 etc etc. Most who use this verse haven't even tried to keep the entire law. God's law is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 why would our perfect Savior want our souls unconverted.

Mat 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Jesus quoted from the Ten Commandments and greatest commandments. Doesn't sound like our Teacher is telling us to discard His laws. He actually told that is not the way to eternal life Mat 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15 1 John 2:4

Mercy Shown said:

You’re absolutely right that Jesus perfectly obeyed every command of His Father — He “humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross” (Philippians 2:8). He alone kept the Law in its entirety, honoring the Father in thought, word, and deed. But this is exactly why His obedience is our hope and victory, not merely a moral example.

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The point of my post, had you considered what was written, is that Jesus followed God's Law perfectly, but HE never engaged in obedience to the LAW of the Levitical Priesthood concerning burnt offering and sacrifices and Priesthood duties as commanded by God after the Golden Calf. The reason for this, is because "That Law" was only Temporary and was Prophesied as such. For Jesus to continue in this "ADDED LAW" would have been a sin and a rejection of God's Word concerning who HE was, and what His mission was.

The foundation of the internet sermons often posted, is that Jesus, Paul, Jeremiah or Moses didn't "Parse" the Law between God's Judgments, Statutes and Commandments, and the Temporary priesthood "works" "ADDED" to God's Laws because of the Golden calf, "Till the Seed/Priest "after the order of Melchizedek" should come.

God gave them this "ADDED" Law after the golden calf, "ADDED" to His Judgments, Statutes and Commandments Abraham obeyed, as a Mercy to them, instead of wiping them all out and building a nation from Moses, another statement from God that you didn't acknowledge, although I asked you about it.

This is why I ask you the questions so we can have an honest discussion about this important topic. , but you refused to answer.

Nevertheless, thank you for the platform and the opportunity to question popular philosophy that Jesus and Paul Warned about.

Hentenza said:

lol The arrogance. One day actually study the history of your church away from the propaganda that you are taught.

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The "history of the church" varies greatly according to the source of the "history". Certainly this is true concerning the "Crusades". There are many differing versions to choose from. It would seem, according to Paul, that the Holy Scriptures would provide the most accurate and trustworthy "History" and "Prophesy" concerning this world's many religions "who profess to know God". I would argue that ANY History, outside the teaching of the bible, would be "propaganda".

Studyman said:

The "history of the church" varies greatly according to the source of the "history". Certainly this is true concerning the "Crusades". There are many differing versions to choose from. It would seem, according to Paul, that the Holy Scriptures would provide the most accurate and trustworthy "History" and "Prophesy" concerning this world's many religions "who profess to know God". I would argue that ANY History, outside the teaching of the bible, would be "propaganda".

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The Bible offers the history of the beginning of the universal church not of any particular denomination. The early church depicted in scripture were a collection of independent churches that shared the early books and apostolic knowledge. The rest of the church history comes from the actual study of history outside of scripture. The plethora of extant manuscripts and artifacts follow the churches history throughout the centuries. Frequent new discoveries continue to shape this history.

SabbathBlessings said:

Did you read my post, the translation you used added it to God’s holy word, why would I respond to something that is not there nor are we discussing Mat 23. Nor were the Pharasees keep God;s laws, they were keeping their own man-made ones in lieu of God's commandments taht Jesus condemed. Mat 15:1-15 Rom 2:21-23

Jesus quoted directly the commandments He was referring to in the same passage, its the context, no need to add other things Jesus did not say in this passage to define which commandants He was referring to . Jesus quoted what He meant in the context of the same passage Mat5:19-30.

I think it’s time for me to move on brother. I wish you well.

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Yea, it's time for you to move on. I'm not sure you even read what I said. The "teachers of the Law" is there in the Greek. You just don't read Greek. I can only just read enough to know it's there.

Jesus referred to the 10 Commandments in Matt 5 because it was part of the entire Law, which is what the Pharisees and teachers of the Law taught. Matthew confirms what the Pharisses and teachers of the Law taught later on in his Gospel.

You shouldn't be trying to teach others your beliefs if they can't hold up in Scripture. And if they can't hold up in Scripture, you should think about changing your belief about the legal necessity of keeping Sabbath Law. It would be great if we could get on the same page.

RandyPNW said:

Yea, it's time for you to move on. I'm not sure you even read what I said. The "teachers of the Law" is there in the Greek. You just don't read Greek. I can only just read enough to know it's there.

Jesus referred to the 10 Commandments in Matt 5 because it was part of the entire Law, which is what the Pharisees and teachers of the Law taught. Matthew confirms what the Pharisses and teachers of the Law taught later on in his Gospel.

You shouldn't be trying to teach others your beliefs if they can't hold up in Scripture. And if they can't hold up in Scripture, you should think about changing your belief about the legal necessity of keeping Sabbath Law. It would be great if we could get on the same page.

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Sorry if I don't take your word for it over the translation in Greek as shown written word for word The History of the “Two Laws” Theory in Romans 3:20

The Pharisees were teachers of their own laws, not God's they kept their laws not God's Mat 15:1-14 Rom 2:21-23 which Jesus condemned harshly, following their path is not the way back to reconciliation. Mat 5:18-20 Rev 22:14-15

There is no Scripture that says the Ten Commandments are the same laws as the sacrificial laws that Moses wrote placed besides the ark of the Covenant. This goes against the very teaching of God. You quote you but does that trump what God said in His own written and spoken Testimony the Ten Commandments Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 that no more were added Deut 5:22 sorry if I choose to believe the Testimony of God Exo 31:18 over man. There was no Moses at creation according to God in His written and spoken Testimony, the Ten Commandments Exo 20:11. But you are free to believe what you wish

2 Chr 33:8 and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers—only if they are careful to do all that I (God) have commanded them, according to the whole law and (in addition to) the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.”

God is not Moses. Moses is not God. Moses was a servant of God as are we to be.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Which Law?

11 For He (God) who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

The Ten Commandments is the whole law of God, the only law that sits under His mercy seat. Not the edited version of man. His own Testimony, that God of the Universe wrote, not man. Where mercy and justice will come together soon. Rev 11:18-19 I personally would not want to remove a jot or tittle on what God covers under His mercy seat, but we are given free will, despite that never working out for anyone in Scripture. Eze 22:26 Eze 20:13 Neh 13:17 Exo 31:14 we were told not to follow the same path of disobedience Heb4:11

The law that describes what sin is can't be the same law that was added as a prescription for sin. I pray one day you will see this.

SabbathBlessings said:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin (break the law 1John3:4) that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The law that was added because of sin cannot the same law that describes sin.

If the Law is the schoolmaster to lead to Christ, what school teacher teaches us to throw out everything learned in school. If the law brings us to Christ does Christ say not to keep God's law and now we can vain His holy name, worship other gods, steal from our neighbor. I can't find this in our Bibles. Jesus taught and lived by example the opposite. Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 John 15:10 Mat 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15 etc etc. Most who use this verse haven't even tried to keep the entire law. God's law is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 why would our perfect Savior want our souls unconverted.

Mat 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Jesus quoted from the Ten Commandments and greatest commandments. Doesn't sound like our Teacher is telling us to discard His laws. He actually told that is not the way to eternal life Mat 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15 1 John 2:4

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Who said Jesus told us to discard His laws? You're arguing against a phantom. But that's because you're obsessed with the "faith plus works" system.

tdidymas said:

Who said Jesus told us to discard His laws?

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that Christ took away all the law (including the 10 com.) that came between us and God,

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God said:
Psa 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, [a]converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

The law is not what separated us from God, its the opposite breaking God's law which is sin.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

tdidymas said:

You're arguing against a phantom. But that's because you're obsessed with the "faith plus works" system.

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I love Jesus John 14:15 1 John5:3 Exo 20:6 and obey Him not to be saved but its a consequence of salvation Rev 14:12 Sadly disobedience is rebellion, sin and unbelief Heb 3:7-19

Hentenza said:

Even as a Protestant I have always viewed the law as a unified law including the moral, ceremonial, and judicial. I also view the law to contain the 10 commandments. Christ fulfilled the law in the same sense as fulfilling the terms of a contract. The old covenant is fulfilled because Christ sacrifice met and exceeded the terms of the old contract. The new contract (new covenant) has its own terms.

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While there is a type of contract to perform a specific task that no longer needs to be done after it has been fulfilled, the Bible does not present the Mosaic Covenant or any other covenant as being this type of contract, but rather it says things like this is a statute forever throughout your generations. The Bible often describes the Mosaic Covenant in terms of being a marriage between God and Israel, so it is presented as a marriage contract. It is not the case that when someone does something that expresses their love their neighbor or their spouse, then they have fulfilled their obligation and no longer need to love their neighbor or their spouse, but rather it is something that we need to keep on fulfilling as an ongoing obligation.

The terms of God's covenants are not up in the air such that it is in accordance with God's righteousness to be a doer of charity in one covenant while it might be sinful to be a doer of charity in another covenant, but rather each of God's covenants are made with the same God with the same eternal character traits and therefore the same eternal and cumulastely valid instructions for how to be a doer of His character traits (Jeremiah 31:33). God could give two people two different sets of instructions for how to be a doer of righteousness in different situations, but all of those instructions have the same character trait in common and all of them would be valid for a third person who has the goal of knowing and loving God by being a doer of righteousness even though God did not directly give any instructions to them.

Hentenza said:

So faith plus works required for salvation. Not biblical.

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It's not that we need to add our works in addition to our faith as if faith alone were insufficient but that we can do works that embody our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through is works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James has faith in Jesus. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation, which requires our participation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously making us to be a doer of good works is nevertheless still a central part of His gift of salvation. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

Hentenza said:

Rejection of God’s commandments is not the issue, being put back under the bondage of the law is beyond problematic.

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If God said the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to HIs law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of God's law that puts us into bondage while the truth set us free.

Hentenza said:

Not by following the law. Walk in the Spirit not in the law.

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God has not commanded anything that is contrary to walking the Spirit, which is why Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law (Romans 8:4-7)

Hentenza said:

These verses are all about faith not about works.

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In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

Hentenza said:

Right and the commandments spoken here are the ones from Christ not from the law.

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Christ quoted three times from Deuteronomy in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, which included saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, so he affirmed everything that God has spoken.

Hentenza said:

As long as you continue to preach the law for the believer it is you who is preaching a different gospel.

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In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which Paul also taught based on God's law (Acts 20:24-25, 28:23).

Hentenza said:

The commandments of Jesus in the new covenant are 2 commandments that summarize and take over the whole law. The 613 Jewish laws including the 10 commandments was fulfilled by Christ sacrifice in the cross. The terms of the old contract have been met and exceeded by Christ. The new covenant has new and different terms. The Christian is not under the law.

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All of the 613 commandments are either in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them. Christ seen this ministry teaching his followers to obey God's law by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what he taught, no about refusing to follow him. The reason why Jesus established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33).

SabbathBlessings said:

Sorry if I don't take your word for it over the translation in Greek as shown written word for word The History of the “Two Laws” Theory in Romans 3:20

The Pharisees were teachers of their own laws, not God's they kept their laws not God's Mat 15:1-14 Rom 2:21-23 which Jesus condemned harshly, following their path is not the way back to reconciliation. Mat 5:18-20 Rev 22:14-15

There is no Scripture that says the Ten Commandments are the same laws as the sacrificial laws that Moses wrote placed besides the ark of the Covenant. This goes against the very teaching of God. You quote you but does that trump what God said in His own written and spoken Testimony the Ten Commandments Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 that no more were added Deut 5:22 sorry if I choose to believe the Testimony of God Exo 31:18 over man. There was no Moses at creation according to God in His written and spoken Testimony, the Ten Commandments Exo 20:11. But you are free to believe what you wish

2 Chr 33:8 and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers—only if they are careful to do all that I (God) have commanded them, according to the whole law and (in addition to) the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.”

God is not Moses. Moses is not God. Moses was a servant of God as are we to be.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Which Law?

11 For He (God) who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

The Ten Commandments is the whole law of God, the only law that sits under His mercy seat. Not the edited version of man. His own Testimony, that God of the Universe wrote, not man. Where mercy and justice will come together soon. Rev 11:18-19 I personally would not want to remove a jot or tittle on what God covers under His mercy seat, but we are given free will, despite that never working out for anyone in Scripture. Eze 22:26 Eze 20:13 Neh 13:17 Exo 31:14 we were told not to follow the same path of disobedience Heb4:11

The law that describes what sin is can't be the same law that was added as a prescription for sin. I pray one day you will see this.

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I cannot see this because all that you're saying is an interpretation--not what was said.

1) The Scriptures do not say that the 10 Commandments are different from the entire body of Law that included sacrificial laws. They are different sets within the one Law, and are designated in places separately, but they all remain part of the Law of Moses. They are not "God's Laws" and "Moses' Laws."

2) The Scirptures do not say that the "words of the Covenant," sometimes called "the 10 Commandments," are restricted to just those 10 Commandments. We are informed that "Covenant Law" included the regulations on how the 10 Commandments were stored in the Ark and in the Tabernacle. In fact, the Tabernacle itself was called "the tabernacle of the covenant law."

Exo 38.These are the amounts of the materials used for the tabernacle, the tabernacle of the covenant law, which were recorded at Moses’ command by the Levites under the direction of Ithamar son of Aaron, the priest.

In reality, though the 10 Commandments were used as a symbol of the entire agreement between God and Israel, the totality of all of the laws were included in the covenant agreement...

Lev 26.14 “‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, 15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant...

The Law, therefore, included "all these commands," "my decrees," and "my laws," as well as "all my commands." Doing any of these things--not just the 10 Commandments, "violated my covenant."

But the 10 Commandments, as symbolic of the whole Covenant, also represented more than just all of the laws governing the keeping of the 10 Commandments. They represented, symbolically, God's promise to Israel's ancestors, to maintain Israel as His People...

44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.’”
46 These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the Lord established at Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses.

At the heart of this argument you believe that the 10 Commandments alone represent God's "decrees, laws, and commands," and that violating them alone constitute violating God's "covenant." Well, I must admit that the 10 Commandments were used by God in His Law to represent Israel's ideal faithfulness to God with respect to those 10 Commandments, including the Sabbath Law.

One could keep many of the external ceremonial laws without really keeping the 10 Commandments from the heart. And that was, I think, the point.

And so, the 10 Commandments were the seal of true obedience among those who had genuine faith in God's mercy, though all of the external laws of sacrifice were also part of this covenant law. Much of the external laws were designed, in fact, to protect God's standard of true obedience to the Commandments from those kept separate by sin. It meant that the 10 Commandments, along with the regulations governing the keeping of them, could only truly be fulfilled by Christ, enabling the curtain of separation to come down.

As such, these 10 Commandments were symbols of a promise, and not the full text of the Law--all of their "decrees, laws, and regulations." Your error is, I think, in thinking their use as a symbol of the whole covenant meant that they were exclusive of the rest of the full body of laws.

The statutes given *by the hand of Moses* were included in this Law and Covenant. There is no distinction between these and the 10 Commandments given by God. Both statutes given by Moses and Commandments given by God were *from God.*

The fact that the 10 Commandments were used as a symbol of the Covenant in the ark indicated God's promise to Israel on behalf of their forefathers. The fact they were encased in an ark and in the Tabernacle indicated that the statutes governing this order were part of the entire set of decrees, laws, and regulations.

Your argument for the Sabbath regulation is as much part of the whole body of laws as it is a part of the 10 Commandments. And it all, both the 10 Commandments and the external regulations governing their separation, were designed to maintain a kind of separation between God's presence and Israel until Christ's work on the cross was finished.

Now that Christ has died, and the veil has been rent, we rely on Christ for our Salvation--not works done under the Law, which were eternally separated from God by sin. Christ did not have to keep the 10 Commandments because they were for Israel and not for a Messiah who knew no sin.

Jesus had no need to keep the Sabbath Law, nor any of the many other regulations, ceremonies, and requirements of the Law. His righteousness was the fulfillment of the Covenant and the fulfillment of the promise. If you are going to start requiring Sabbath observance of Jesus you will be requiring that God obey His own laws required for sinful Israel!

In fact, Jesus' righteousness was designed to be fulfilled apart from the Law for Israel. He became a distinct priest, temple, and sacrifice. He alone fulfilled a Law that was for a sinful people. And did so separate from Sabbath Law.

RandyPNW said:

I cannot see this because all that you're saying is an interpretation--not what was said.

1) The Scriptures do not say that the 10 Commandments are different from the entire body of Law that included sacrificial laws. They are different sets within the one Law, and are designated in places separately, but they all remain part of the Law of Moses. They are not "God's Laws" and "Moses' Laws."

2) The Scirptures do not say that the "words of the Covenant," sometimes called "the 10 Commandments," are restricted to just those 10 Commandments. We are informed that "Covenant Law" included the regulations on how the 10 Commandments were stored in the Ark and in the Tabernacle. In fact, the Tabernacle itself was called "the tabernacle of the covenant law."

Exo 38.These are the amounts of the materials used for the tabernacle, the tabernacle of the covenant law, which were recorded at Moses’ command by the Levites under the direction of Ithamar son of Aaron, the priest.

In reality, though the 10 Commandments were used as a symbol of the entire agreement between God and Israel, the totality of all of the laws were included in the covenant agreement...

Lev 26.14 “‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, 15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant...

The Law, therefore, included "all these commands," "my decrees," and "my laws," as well as "all my commands." Doing any of these things--not just the 10 Commandments, "violated my covenant."

But the 10 Commandments, as symbolic of the whole Covenant, also represented more than just all of the laws governing the keeping of the 10 Commandments. They represented, symbolically, God's promise to Israel's ancestors, to maintain Israel as His People...

44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. 45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.’”
46 These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the Lord established at Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses.

At the heart of this argument you believe that the 10 Commandments alone represent God's "decrees, laws, and commands," and that violating them alone constitute violating God's "covenant." Well, I must admit that the 10 Commandments were used by God in His Law to represent Israel's ideal faithfulness to God with respect to those 10 Commandments, including the Sabbath Law.

One could keep many of the external ceremonial laws without really keeping the 10 Commandments from the heart. And that was, I think, the point.

And so, the 10 Commandments were the seal of true obedience among those who had genuine faith in God's mercy, though all of the external laws of sacrifice were also part of this covenant law. Much of the external laws were designed, in fact, to protect God's standard of true obedience to the Commandments from those kept separate by sin. It meant that the 10 Commandments, along with the regulations governing the keeping of them, could only truly be fulfilled by Christ, enabling the curtain of separation to come down.

As such, these 10 Commandments were symbols of a promise, and not the full text of the Law--all of their "decrees, laws, and regulations." Your error is, I think, in thinking their use as a symbol of the whole covenant meant that they were exclusive of the rest of the full body of laws.

The statutes given *by the hand of Moses* were included in this Law and Covenant. There is no distinction between these and the 10 Commandments given by God. Both statutes given by Moses and Commandments given by God were *from God.*

The fact that the 10 Commandments were used as a symbol of the Covenant in the ark indicated God's promise to Israel on behalf of their forefathers. The fact they were encased in an ark and in the Tabernacle indicated that the statutes governing this order were part of the entire set of decrees, laws, and regulations.

Your argument for the Sabbath regulation is as much part of the whole body of laws as it is a part of the 10 Commandments. And it all, both the 10 Commandments and the external regulations governing their separation, were designed to maintain a kind of separation between God's presence and Israel until Christ's work on the cross was finished.

Now that Christ has died, and the veil has been rent, we rely on Christ for our Salvation--not works done under the Law, which were eternally separated from God by sin. Christ did not have to keep the 10 Commandments because they were for Israel and not for a Messiah who knew no sin.

Jesus had no need to keep the Sabbath Law, nor any of the many other regulations, ceremonies, and requirements of the Law. His righteousness was the fulfillment of the Covenant and the fulfillment of the promise. If you are going to start requiring Sabbath observance of Jesus you will be requiring that God obey His own laws required for sinful Israel!

In fact, Jesus' righteousness was designed to be fulfilled apart from the Law for Israel. He became a distinct priest, temple, and sacrifice. He alone fulfilled a Law that was for a sinful people. And did so separate from Sabbath Law.

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Two covenants/agreements, not one. Nothing in the two verses you quoted countermands the Testimony of God.

Moses and God are not the same. One is the Creator and the other the creation. When you see God claiming His commandments and separating them from the laws Moses gave, it means they are not the same. God is not Moses, Moses is not God.

2Ki 21:8 and I will not make the feet of Israel wander anymore from the land which I gave their fathers—only if they are careful to do according to all that I (God)have commanded them, and (in addition) according to all the law that My servant Moses commanded them."

Deu 29:1 These are the words of the covenant which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.

Dan 9:11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him.


2 Chr 33:8 and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers—only if they are careful to do all that I (God) have commanded them, according to the whole law and (in addition to) the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.”

God placed His covenant of the Ten Commandments at Creation Exo 20:11 in His written Testimony. Exo 31:18 Moses was not alive at Creation so how can the Ten Commandments be the commandments of Moses.

God claimed He added no more to His covenant why He stopped at Ten Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 Deut 5:22, I guess you need to correct Him. I guess God did not know what His covenant or His commandments are Deut 4:13 Exo 20:6 they are not really His according to you, but Moses and He misspoke. Guess Moses misspoke too when He said the Ten Commandments was the work of God, not his. Exo 32:16 Its not God’s Testimony, Exo 31:18 its really Moses. It wasn’t God writing His Testimony on stone, its Moses. Thankfully you are around to correct God and Moses and all their mistakes. So according to you Moses sits on the Throne and Gods mercy seat is really not God’s but Moses. God doesn't know the difference between the Creator Exo 20:11 and the creation Gen 1:26. Sorry there is no reasoning with this mindset so much clear Scripture one has to disregard to make this case. Just because the different laws are spoke of in one sentences that were separated with a bunch of ands, which means in addition to, does not alter the facts that the Ten Commandments , the Law of God is not the commandments of Moses. Moses is not God, God is not Moses. Moses hand wrote what was outside the ark on paper Deut 31:24-26. God codified His Ten Commandments at Mt Sinai His Testimony on stone that no more were added to them according to God Deut 5:22 and claimed them as His, not Moses Deut 4:13 Exo 20:6 and they started way before He codified them, thus saith the Lord Exo 20:11 as they sit in His Temple in heaven, not the temple of Moses Rev 11:19 Rev 15:5 under God’s mercy seat, not Moses.

Anyway, we are at an impasse, believe as you wish, all gets sorted out soon enough.. Be well.

Soyeong said:

While there is a type of contract to perform a specific task that no longer needs to be done after it has been fulfilled, the Bible does not present the Mosaic Covenant or any other covenant as being this type of contract, but rather it says things like this is a statute forever throughout your generations.

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Only to Israel. The covenant to the house of Israel still remains until the time of the gentiles is finished.

Soyeong said:

The Bible often describes the Mosaic Covenant in terms of being a marriage between God and Israel, so it is presented as a marriage contract.

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Where? Evidence please.

Soyeong said:

It is not the case that when someone does something that expresses their love their neighbor or their spouse, then they have fulfilled their obligation and no longer need to love their neighbor or their spouse, but rather it is something that we need to keep on fulfilling as an ongoing obligation.

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But that is exactly what Jesus stated. He stated that all of the law of the prophets (Matt 7:12) is summarized in the “treat them as you would like to be treated” commandment.

Soyeong said:

The terms of God's covenants are not up in the air such that it is in accordance with God's righteousness to be a doer of charity in one covenant while it might be sinful to be a doer of charity in another covenant, but rather each of God's covenants are made with the same God with the same eternal character traits and therefore the same eternal and cumulastely valid instructions for how to be a doer of His character traits (Jeremiah 31:33).

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Sure but you quote old covenant terms. The house of Israel is not the New Testament church.

Soyeong said:

God could give two people two different sets of instructions for how to be a doer of righteousness in different situations, but all of those instructions have the same character trait in common and all of them would be valid for a third person who has the goal of knowing and loving God by being a doer of righteousness even though God did not directly give any instructions to them.

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I disagree. Jesus redeeming sacrifice on the cross changed the salvation formula but even in the old covenant the determining factor for salvation was faith not the law (Heb. 11).

Soyeong said:

It's not that we need to add our works in addition to our faith as if faith alone were insufficient but that we can do works that embody our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through is works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James has faith in Jesus. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation, which requires our participation.

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Agree.

Soyeong said:

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20).

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Agree.

Soyeong said:

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously making us to be a doer of good works is nevertheless still a central part of His gift of salvation.

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But not as a requirement for salvation. The verses are clear that we are made a workmanship of Christ and will do the works prepared in advance for us to do so we do works naturally from salvation but there is nothing here about doing the works of the law.

Soyeong said:

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

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Psalm 119:29-30 is not a part of the new covenant. The audience was Israel and hardly applicable to the Christian church.

Soyeong said:

If God said the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to HIs law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is the transgression of God's law that puts us into bondage while the truth set us free.

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“For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things written in the book of the Law, to do them.” Now, that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “the righteous one will live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “The person who performs them will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭10‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

These verses are pretty damning to your argument. You quote Gal. 5 but fail to take into account Paul’s teaching regarding the keeping of the law. The freedom of Gal. 5 does not speak about keeping the law.

Soyeong said:

God has not commanded anything that is contrary to walking the Spirit, which is why Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law (Romans 8:4-7)

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Gods law is no longer the Jewish law for the Christian church but it still remain for the unbelieving Israel. The spirit now convicts us not the law.

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Soyeong said:

In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

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“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

The commandments of God here is not the law or even the 10. The commandments are the commandments of Jesus (2 commandments not 613 Jewish laws).

Soyeong said:

Christ quoted three times from Deuteronomy in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, which included saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, so he affirmed everything that God has spoken.

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Yes but Jesus is God and He gave us two commandments not 613 or even 10.

Soyeong said:

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which Paul also taught based on God's law (Acts 20:24-25, 28:23).

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Sure but remember that where there is no sin there is no law. Christ fulfilled the law (completed it as no one ever could) so we are now convicted of our sin by the spirit not from the law).

“But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of God’s grace. “And now behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭20‬:‭24‬-‭25‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Not sure why you are using these verses. Nothing here about the law.

“When they had set a day for Paul, people came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Yes and Paul also said:

“To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the Law, I became as one under the Law, though not being under the Law myself, so that I might gain those who are under the Law;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭9‬:‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Paul was going to preach the gospel of good news to the Jews as a Jew so he could convert Jews. Understand that Paul is not going to call the law a curse in Galatians to now defend the law in Acts 28. Paul is not bipolar.

Soyeong said:

All of the 613 commandments are either in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them. Christ seen this ministry teaching his followers to obey God's law by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what he taught, no about refusing to follow him. The reason why Jesus established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33).

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Then Paul and others are preaching a different gospel. No where in the New Testament does it teach that the Christian is still under the Jewish law. Absolutely no where. The whole if the NT teaches exactly the opposite. As Paul teaches if you keep the law then you have your keep all of it. Good luck with that since only God as man was able to keep it perfectly.

SabbathBlessings said:

Two covenants, not one. Nothing in the two verses you quoted conducts the Testimony of God.

2Ki 21:8 and I will not make the feet of Israel wander anymore from the land which I gave their fathers—only if they are careful to do according to all that I (God)have commanded them, and (in addition) according to all the law that My servant Moses commanded them."

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I meant to address this point, but forgot. Many places in the Bible utilize dualisms in literary style. This means that the same thing may be stated twice. For example, I may say, "the Law of the Lord is like gold, it is precious beyond measure." This dual statement is not an "addition," but rather, an "elucidation." The 2nd statement is intended to clarify or improve, rather than distinguish.

In your point, "all that God has commanded them" is not separate from "all the law that Moses commanded them." They are stating the same thing in two different ways to make the point fuller, or more colorful.

In reality, what God "commanded Israel" was commanded "by Moses." And so, they are the same thing, regardless of the differences between how the 10 Commandments were delivered and how the rest of the Law was delivered.

Your argument fails to recognize this literary style, and as such, your argument doesn't really hold up. The Law of Moses is the same as the Commandments of God, since they represent the entire body of Law, and the entire Covenant agreement between God and Israel.

SabbathBlessings said:

Deu 29:1 These are the words of the covenant which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.

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This is not a separate covenant. The Covenant, or the Law, was designed to include both the 10 Commandments and all of the regulations that governed the keeping of that Covenant. Both Commandments and Regulations were included at Horeb just as it was repeated at Moab. It's just that a few extra details were given at Moab.

The Regulations governing the keeping of the Commandments included mention of the curtains separating God's presence from Israel, and this was an integral part of the Law as a whole. It indicated that the fulfillment of the 10 Commandments was to be fulfilled in Christ, and not in the works of Israel, which only temporarily satisfied God.

The external regulations of the Law, governing the keeping of the 10 Commandments, were to be fulfilled not in the ceremonial Law, but in Christ himself, apart from this Law. The ceremonial Law was valid only in the time leading up to Christ and his fulfillment of the Law. That's why the 10 Commandments, representative of the whole Law, was kept separate from Israel in the Ark.

What was given Israel in the land of Moab was a re-statement of the entire Law with the addition of the curses and blessings on Mt. Ebal and Mt. Gerazim, along with some other statements. What was given at Sinai, or Horeb, included the 10 Commandments along with all of the regulations governing the keeping of them. What was given at Moab required the same, not separating the 10 Commandments from the regulations governing the keeping of them.

SabbathBlessings said:

God claimed He added no more to His covenant Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 Deut 5:22, I guess you need to correct Him.

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As I said, God's Covenant included not just the 10 Commandments, but all of the Regulations governing the preservation of those 10 Commandments within the Ark and within the Tabernacle and within the Curtains surrounding the Outer Court. All of the Regulations were part of the Covenant as a whole, and the Tabernacle was called "the Tabernacle of the Covenant."

Again, we are told that *all* of the laws and regulations were part of this Law and Covenant, even if the 10 Commandments hold special significance as representative of the whole body of Law. They held a titular, symbolic place within the Law, and as such were part of the entire Law and represented the entire Law.

The regulations that are in "addition" to the 10 Commandments do not therefore "add" to what the Scriptures call "God's Law." It's just that the 10 Commandments themselves draw special attention to themselves--not as a kind of NT Law, but rather, as an indication of the heart of the Law, which remained separated from sinful Israel until Christ came.

SabbathBlessings said:

I guess God did not know what His covenant or His commandments are Deut 4:13 Exo 20:6 they are not really His according to you, but Moses and He misspoke.

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Not what I'm saying. What I dispute is your *interpretation* of the facts and language that are given.

SabbathBlessings said:

Guess Moses misspoke too when He said the Ten Commandments was the work of God, not his.

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As I said, this is irrelevant since God gave both the 10 Commandments and the Law that Moses wrote. The differences in the way God delivered them do not separate them into separate covenants or into separate bodies of Law. This is purely your *interpretation* of these details.

SabbathBlessings said:

Exo 32:16 Its not God’s Testimony, Exo 31:18 its really Moses. It wasn’t God writing His Testimony on stone, its Moses. Thankfully you are around to correct God and Moses and all their mistakes.

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This kind of rhetoric isn't of any value in a discussion like this, though I understand where you're coming from.

SabbathBlessings said:

So according to you Moses sits on the Throne and Gods mercy seat is really not God’s but Moses. God doesn't know the difference between the Creator Exo 20:11 and the creation Gen 1:26. Sorry there is no reasoning with this mindset so much clear Scripture one has to disregard to make this case.

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Of course there is reasoning in my mindset, which sees no difference in the Divine authorship of the 10 Commandments and the entire body of Law, even though they are distributed differently.

What you do is distinguish Moses' Law from God's Law as if Moses' Law is not God's Law. But that is not Scriptural at all. And you should be the one questioning your rationale.

SabbathBlessings said:

Anyway, we are at an impasse, believe as you wish, all gets sorted out soon enough.. Be well.

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Thank you. May you rest every day in the finished work of Christ. There is nothing you need do to complete the journey to the City of God. Christ did it all.

SabbathBlessings said:

God said:
Psa 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, [a]converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

The law is not what separated us from God, its the opposite breaking God's law which is sin.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

I love Jesus John 14:15 1 John5:3 Exo 20:6 and obey Him not to be saved but its a consequence of salvation Rev 14:12 Sadly disobedience is rebellion, sin and unbelief Heb 3:7-19

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So what do you do with this: Col 2:14 "having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross"? It means the law is "wiped out" and can't condemn us (Rom. 8:1).

I agree that obedience to God is the result of being saved from sin by God's grace. It makes us so grateful to God that we love Him and want to please Him.

But it seems to me that your initial response had this behind it: "you're teaching antinominaism!!"
Wasn't it?

tdidymas said:

So what do you do with this: Col 2:14 "having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross"? It means the law is "wiped out" and can't condemn us (Rom. 8:1).

I agree that obedience to God is the result of being saved from sin by God's grace. It makes us so grateful to God that we love Him and want to please Him.

But it seems to me that your initial response had this behind it: "you're teaching antinominaism!!"
Wasn't it?

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Thanks for asking. I have addressed this verse/passage more times than I can remember. Here is a post from my Bible study one it.


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
This verse sets up the following verses and gives us a lot more context.
Paul is giving us the context as to what he is speaking about

1. handwritten
2. ordinances
3. against and contrary to us

This is what Paul is quoting the law he is referring to is from

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

The laws that were beside the ark of the Covenant handwritten by Moses, there as a witness against, the context of Col 2:14


But lets look at this verse closer

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
The Greek word for sabbath here is plural not singular. So its not speaking of "The" Sabbath day "The holy day of the Lord" as already seen in the context.

Paul is quoting Ezekiel all of the sacrifices and offerings.

Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and theburnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

What was predicted would end when Jesus came?

Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

So this is not about any of the Ten Commandments but about the food and drink offerings, feast days that some were also sabbath(s) that were handwritten by Moses placed besides the ark of the covenant that came after the fall of man. The Sabbath started at Creation before sin Exo 20:11 so can't be a "shadow" of anything as it is part of God's perfect plan before sin took over and a need for a plan of salvation.

Why if you look at the next verse it clearly shows what it is referring to which works in perfect harmony with the context

Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. (contrary and against)
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU DID NOT DESIRE, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME.
Heb 10:6 IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAD NO PLEASURE.
Heb 10:7 THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME—IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME—TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, BURNT OFFERINGS, AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DID NOT DESIRE, NOR HAD PLEASURE IN THEM" (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Exo 12:17 43 So the Lord said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance of the Passover:
1Co 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

Clare73 said:

And where you get it wrong (delibefately?) is: "the claim that they determine that the new covenant consists of the freedom to enter heaven without regard to one's righteousness."

That is a false claim. . .

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What I actually said was, "...wherever they determine that the new covenant consists of the freedom to enter heaven without regard to one's righteousness." When discussing Sola Fide with its adherents, there are a few different positions held. One is that no degree or gravity of sin could ever keep a believer from heaven, because all sin and all sins are equally bad and even one would disqualify them from having any claims to righteousness.

Clare73 said:

Saving faith always has righteousness, or it is counterfeit faith, but it is not the righteousness of that faith which saves, it is only the faith that saves. You either believe Eph 2:8-9, or you don't.

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Eph 2:8-9 is speaking of works of the law, which is what Paul is always speaking of, and opposing, when he objects to works saving us. Works of the law are decidedly not righteous; performing them is only a pretense at righteousness=legalism. Righteousness, OTOH, the real thing made possibile by God through the Holy Spirit, is necessary. You either believe Rom 6:20-22, or you don't:

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life."

Hentenza said:

Only to Israel. The covenant to the house of Israel still remains until the time of the gentiles is finished.

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The issue of what type of contract the Mosaic Covenant is is independent of the issue of who it is made with.

Hentenza said:

Where? Evidence please.

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For example, God said that he was a husband to Israel (Jeremiah 31:32) and Israel's unfaithfulness was described as adultery, with eventually got so bad that God wrote the Northern Kingdom a write of divorce (Jeremiah 3:8).

Hentenza said:

But that is exactly what Jesus stated. He stated that all of the law of the prophets (Matt 7:12) is summarized in the “treat them as you would like to be treated” commandment.

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That is not what Jesus stated. A sum is inclusive of all of its parts and the reason why the greatest two commandments are the greatest two is because they are inclusive of all of the other commandments. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, favoritism, kidnapping, and so forth for the rest of God's other commandments. The greatest two commandments as much easier said than done, so thankfully God graciously gave us the rest of His commandments in order to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obey them. Someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of God's other commandments because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow.

Hentenza said:

Sure but you quote old covenant terms. The house of Israel is not the New Testament church.

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The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "church" and is used many times in the Septuagint to refer to Israel in the wilderness. In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles were at one time separated from Christ, alienated from Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in this world, which is in accordance with Gentiles at one time not being doers of God's law, but through faith in Christ all of that is no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God, which is in accordance with Gentiles becoming doers of God's law.

Hentenza said:

I disagree. Jesus redeeming sacrifice on the cross changed the salvation formula but even in the old covenant the determining factor for salvation was faith not the law (Heb. 11).

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In Psalms 119:29-30, it describes the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, so the salvation formula did not change. Salvation was never earned as the result of our obedience to God's law, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation.

Hentenza said:

But not as a requirement for salvation. The verses are clear that we are made a workmanship of Christ and will do the works prepared in advance for us to do so we do works naturally from salvation but there is nothing here about doing the works of the law.

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Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed at being doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by being a doer of God's law, which is what Titus 2:11-13 describes. The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to experience driving it. Similarly, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3), and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience, which we are intrinsically required to follow. God's law is His instructions for equipping us to do every good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Hentenza said:

Psalm 119:29-30 is not a part of the new covenant. The audience was Israel and hardly applicable to the Christian church.

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The Psalms are the OT book that is most quoted by the NT, so the authors of the NT certainly considered it to be applicable to the Christian church.

Hentenza said:

“For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things written in the book of the Law, to do them.” Now, that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “the righteous one will live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “The person who performs them will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭10‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Galatians 3:10-14 For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM.” Now, that no one is just | New American Standard Bible -

For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM.” Now, that no one is just

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These verses are pretty damning to your argument. You quote Gal. 5 but fail to take into account Paul’s teaching regarding the keeping of the law. The freedom of Gal. 5 does not speak about keeping the law.

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According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the way to be cursed is by not continuing to do everything in the Book of the Law, which is why everyone who relies on "works of the law" instead come under that curse. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book of the law with "works of the law" and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with saying that "work of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Law of God, which is why it is not of faith.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Law of God shall live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Law of God. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God is righteous even as they are righteous, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to an alternative manner of living that is not in obedience to God.

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God for salvation but in in His instructions, and the position that God is a giver us untrustworthy instructions that are not of faith is a position that denies the trustworthiness and faithfulness of God.

In Deuteronomy 28, it describes the blessing of the law for lawfulness and the curse of the law for lawlessness, so being set free from the curse of the law is being set free from lawlessness in order to enjoy the blessing of lawfulness. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Law of God but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness.

Hentenza said:

Gods law is no longer the Jewish law for the Christian church but it still remain for the unbelieving Israel. The spirit now convicts us not the law.

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

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“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

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The Bible refers to the Law of Moses as being the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23. In Romans 7-8:2, Paul said the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that he served it with his mind in contrast with the law of sin, which was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which was waging war against the law of his mind, which he served with his flesh, which held him captive, and from which the Law of the Spirit has freed us, so the Law of Moses is not the law of sin and death. The Law of God leads us to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) while the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5), so we need to be set free from the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of Moses, not the other way around. Nowhere does the Bible state that the Law of God is no longer the Law of Moses or that the Law of Moses remains only for unbelieving Israel. Again, Romans 8:4-7 contrast those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of Moses.

Hentenza said:

The commandments of God here is not the law or even the 10. The commandments are the commandments of Jesus (2 commandments not 613 Jewish laws).

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In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus was asked about which commandment is the greatest, not about which were the only commandments that we should still follow, and the existence of the greatest two commandments implies that there are still other commandments that are not the greatest two. What Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 should not be interpreted in a way that is contrary to Jesus affirming that man shall live by every word that comes from the mouth of God. Jesus taught obedience to more than just the two greatest commandments just in Matthew 5.

Hentenza said:

Sure but remember that where there is no sin there is no law. Christ fulfilled the law (completed it as no one ever could) so we are now convicted of our sin by the spirit not from the law).

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All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so there is still the Law of God. "To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching us how to correctly obey it. According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something that only Christ did.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of Moses, and in Psalms 119:142, the Law of Moses is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is. In Galatians 5:16-23, Paul contrasted the desires of the flesh with the desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of Moses while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's character that the Law of Moses was graciously given in order to teach us how to embody. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Law of Moses, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those with uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Law of Moses.

Hentenza said:

“But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of God’s grace. “And now behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭20‬:‭24‬-‭25‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Acts 20:24-25 But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of God’s grace. | New American Standard Bible - NAS

But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of God’s grace.

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Not sure why you are using these verses. Nothing here about the law.

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It shows that Paul also taught the Gospel of the Kingdom, which calls for our obedience to the Law of Moses (Matthew 4:15-23).

Hentenza said:

“When they had set a day for Paul, people came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Acts 28:23 When they had set a day for Paul, people came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerni | New American Standard Bible - NASB (

When they had set a day for Paul, people came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerni

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Yes and Paul also said:

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That does not nullify that Paul also taught the Gosepl of the Kingdom based on the Law of Moses.

Hentenza said:

“To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the Law, I became as one under the Law, though not being under the Law myself, so that I might gain those who are under the Law;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭9‬:‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Corinthians 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the Law, I became as one under the Law, though not being under the Law myself, so that I might gain those who are under | New American Standard Bible

To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the Law, I became as one under the Law, though not being under the Law myself, so that I might gain those who are under

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Paul was going to preach the gospel of good news to the Jews as a Jew do he could convert Jews. Understand that Paul is not going to call the law a curse in Galatians to now defend the law in Acts 28. Paul is not bipolar.

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Paul was speaking about giving up his rights in order to meet people where they were at, not about deciding people about what he believed. Paul did not call the law a curse, but rather the Bible repeatedly says that it is a blessing. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 13 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! Paul should not be interpreted as speaking against following what he considered to be Scripture as if he were bipolar.

Hentenza said:

Then Paul and others are preaching a different gospel. No where in the New Testament does it teach that the Christian is still under the Jewish law. Absolutely no where. The whole if the NT teaches exactly the opposite. As Paul teaches if you keep the law then you have your keep all of it. Good luck with that since only God as man was able to keep it perfectly.

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The different Gospel that Paul was referring to in Galatian 1:6-7 should not be interpreted in a way that turns it against the Gospel that Jesus and Paul taught. Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), so Christ spent this ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and in Matthew 28:16-20, he commissioned his disciples to teach to the nations everything that he taught them. Gentiles are not permitted to sin and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so the position that Gentiles are not required to obey it is the position that Gentiles do not need to refrain from sin, do not need the Gospel, do not need salvation from sin, do not need grace, and do not need Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness. The only reason why someone would need to have perfect obedience to the Law of Moses is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world - the rest of us can thankfully have our sins forgiven.