God is the source of human rights, not government

True. Charlie Kirk had amazing gifts of communication, was bold for Christ and the Gospel and influenced a lot of people to come back to God, give church another shot, reconsider what it means to be a child of God.

And he provided a good contrast between Christianity and secular evils in this world

Great evil in the world and it is escalating just as prophesied ... I look forward to His return.

This verse is heavy on my mind.

John 16:38

33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

It serves as a reminder to remain faithful and confident in God's plan and power, even when circumstances are challenging.

We are living in very challenging times ....

Michie said:

As Americans, we are living in extraordinary times. In my almost eight decades of living in this extraordinary republic called the United States of America, I have never witnessed or experienced anything even approximating the memorial service for Charlie Kirk in Phoenix last Sunday night. Reportedly, well over 100,000 people attended the service, and millions more participated through television.

And the service itself had more of the feel and intensity of a Billy Graham Crusade than a political event. And even though an unprecedented number of high government officials were there, including the U.S. President, Vice President, Secretary of State, and Secretary of War, their remarks were more religious and spiritual than political in tone and substance.

It is becoming increasingly clear that Charlie Kirk has had an amazing and electrifying impact on millions of the nation’s young people, especially Generation Z (1997-2012). I have had at least a dozen colleagues (most involved in some form of ministry) share with me how shocked they were by the emotional impact Charlie Kirk’s death had on their late teen and early twenty-something children. Most of them knew their children listened to him, but had no idea the impact he was having on their thought lives and spiritual lives.

I believe God was using Charlie Kirk as part of a Christian spiritual awakening on our nation’s college and high school campuses. I further believe that his assassination has strengthened and magnified his cause.

Furthermore, it is clear that an unashamed patriotism and love of America is part and parcel of what God has used Charlie Kirk and others to awaken on American campuses and beyond.

Continued below.

God is the source of human rights, not government

One of the most important things that the movement spawned by Charlie Kirk has accomplished is making America s young people much more aware of the divine origin of the Revolution that has produced

www.christianpost.com

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This is a typically ignorant USA superstition, and typical Fundy thinking (which has deeply contaminated & defiled US Catholicism, sad to say).

Rights come partly from God, and partly from the State. Sometimes they agree or overlap, and sometimes they do not.

The stuff in the US constitution is of no legal force outside the US, and it certainly has no force in the Catholic Church. I’m not from the USA, and I do not care what the jokers responsible for the US Constitution said. We have our own legal traditions in the UK, and they do not include what the poxy US of A says.

In the sense that He is the author of all, sure.
But,
He's ok with slavery.

And He says,
1 Peter
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

Romans 13
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Palmfever said:

In the sense that He is the author of all, sure.
But,
He's ok with slavery.

Click to expand...

Really?

““He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭21‬:‭16‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The slavery in scripture is very different than the slavery in recent history. People were allowed to become “slaves” to others for a period of time to pay debts or to get a basic subsistence. The exception was the prisoners of war which would work for the Jews in the form of a serfdom.

There were cultural conditions that made this kind of indenture beneficial for the Jews and there are a plethora of laws and rules on how to treat slaves.

Hentenza said:

Really?

““He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭21‬:‭16‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Click to expand...

That verse refers to kidnapping and trafficing.
I've heard the water it down argument before.
God's primary concern is with souls not bodies.

This is not the entire article.

SLAVE, SLAVERY (עֶ֫בֶד֒, H6269, δοῦλος, slave, servant). The ownership of one man by another man so that the former was viewed in most respects as property rather than as a person. It was a deeply rooted part of the economy and social structure of the ancient Near E and of the Graeco-Rom. world.

Outline

I. Slavery in the OT

Slavery was a widespread practice in the ancient E during OT times. However, the number of slaves in Israel prob. did not run as high as in classical times. In Israel it was cheaper to hire laborers for work than to keep slaves. The use of slaves seems to have been largely confined to household duties and to work in the field alongside the master and his family.
War captives. The earliest means for the acquisition of slaves in the Near E was by military conquest. Thousands of men, women, and children were thus reduced to servitude. To the ancients this was considered a humanitarian improvement on the earlier practice of killing all of the enemy (Num 31:7-35; Deut 20:10-18; 1 Kings 20:39; 2 Chron 28:8-15). The Near Eastern codes and the OT law sought to limit the excesses of brutal punishment which captives received. The Heb. was told that, if a soldier sees a beautiful woman among the captives and marries her, he must treat her thereafter as a free person (Deut 21:10-14). He was not permitted to sell her into slavery after he ceased to delight in her. The Hebrews were subject to enslavement after capture in war at the hands of countless adversaries. The Phoenicians, Philistines, Syrians, Egyptians, and Romans held them in bondage in great numbers.

2. Purchase. The OT provided that foreigners could be bought and sold as slaves and considered as property (Lev 25:44-46). There are infrequent references to foreign slaves who were imported into Pal. (1 Chron 2:34f.). Hebrews were also sold into slavery in other lands; hence the death penalty was prescribed for those who kidnapped and sold a freeborn person (Exod 21:16; Deut 24:7). The OT cites examples of a father selling his daughter (Exod 21:7; Neh 5:5); a widow selling her children to pay her husband’s debt (2 Kings 4:1); and men and women selling themselves (Lev 25:39, 47; Deut 15:12-17).

Purchase. The OT provided that foreigners could be bought and sold as slaves and considered as property (Lev 25:44-46). There are infrequent references to foreign slaves who were imported into Pal. (1 Chron 2:34f.). Hebrews were also sold into slavery in other lands; hence the death penalty was prescribed for those who kidnapped and sold a freeborn person (Exod 21:16; Deut 24:7). The OT cites examples of a father selling his daughter (Exod 21:7; Neh 5:5); a widow selling her children to pay her husband’s debt (2 Kings 4:1); and men and women selling themselves (Lev 25:39, 47; Deut 15:12-17).

The price of slaves varied widely. Thirty shekels was the price according to Exodus 21:32. A scale of from three to fifty shekels is given in Leviticus 27:3-7, according to the age and sex of the slave. An appeal could be made to a priest when there was disagreement on price (v. 8). Twenty shekels was the price for a young man (v. 5)—the price paid for Joseph (Gen 37:28). The average price for a slave was forty shekels (2 Macc 8:11). A ransom of one talent for a captive (1 Kings 20:39) must indicate that he was an individual of great importance.

Children were sold into slavery under terms of a conditional contract. More frequently this was true of young, unmarried girls. Exodus 21 stipulates that if a man sells his daughter, she must become the wife or concubine of her master or of one of his sons when she reaches maturity. If no male member of the family takes her as a wife she is to be set free without any payment of money from her (v. 11). This condition was put in the contract because young girls were frequently purchased with the intention of making prostitutes of them when they reached maturity.

There are many scriptures here:

Palmfever said:

That verse refers to kidnapping and trafficing.
I've heard the water it down argument before.
God's primary concern is with sould not bodies.

SLAVE, SLAVERY (עֶ֫בֶד֒, H6269, δοῦλος, slave, servant). The ownership of one man by another man so that the former was viewed in most respects as property rather than as a person. It was a deeply rooted part of the economy and social structure of the ancient Near E and of the Graeco-Rom. world.

Outline

I. Slavery in the OT

Slavery was a widespread practice in the ancient E during OT times. However, the number of slaves in Israel prob. did not run as high as in classical times. In Israel it was cheaper to hire laborers for work than to keep slaves. The use of slaves seems to have been largely confined to household duties and to work in the field alongside the master and his family.
War captives. The earliest means for the acquisition of slaves in the Near E was by military conquest. Thousands of men, women, and children were thus reduced to servitude. To the ancients this was considered a humanitarian improvement on the earlier practice of killing all of the enemy (Num 31:7-35; Deut 20:10-18; 1 Kings 20:39; 2 Chron 28:8-15). The Near Eastern codes and the OT law sought to limit the excesses of brutal punishment which captives received. The Heb. was told that, if a soldier sees a beautiful woman among the captives and marries her, he must treat her thereafter as a free person (Deut 21:10-14). He was not permitted to sell her into slavery after he ceased to delight in her. The Hebrews were subject to enslavement after capture in war at the hands of countless adversaries. The Phoenicians, Philistines, Syrians, Egyptians, and Romans held them in bondage in great numbers.

2. Purchase. The OT provided that foreigners could be bought and sold as slaves and considered as property (Lev 25:44-46). There are infrequent references to foreign slaves who were imported into Pal. (1 Chron 2:34f.). Hebrews were also sold into slavery in other lands; hence the death penalty was prescribed for those who kidnapped and sold a freeborn person (Exod 21:16; Deut 24:7). The OT cites examples of a father selling his daughter (Exod 21:7; Neh 5:5); a widow selling her children to pay her husband’s debt (2 Kings 4:1); and men and women selling themselves (Lev 25:39, 47; Deut 15:12-17).

Purchase. The OT provided that foreigners could be bought and sold as slaves and considered as property (Lev 25:44-46). There are infrequent references to foreign slaves who were imported into Pal. (1 Chron 2:34f.). Hebrews were also sold into slavery in other lands; hence the death penalty was prescribed for those who kidnapped and sold a freeborn person (Exod 21:16; Deut 24:7). The OT cites examples of a father selling his daughter (Exod 21:7; Neh 5:5); a widow selling her children to pay her husband’s debt (2 Kings 4:1); and men and women selling themselves (Lev 25:39, 47; Deut 15:12-17).

The price of slaves varied widely. Thirty shekels was the price according to Exodus 21:32. A scale of from three to fifty shekels is given in Leviticus 27:3-7, according to the age and sex of the slave. An appeal could be made to a priest when there was disagreement on price (v. 8). Twenty shekels was the price for a young man (v. 5)—the price paid for Joseph (Gen 37:28). The average price for a slave was forty shekels (2 Macc 8:11). A ransom of one talent for a captive (1 Kings 20:39) must indicate that he was an individual of great importance.

Children were sold into slavery under terms of a conditional contract. More frequently this was true of young, unmarried girls. Exodus 21 stipulates that if a man sells his daughter, she must become the wife or concubine of her master or of one of his sons when she reaches maturity. If no male member of the family takes her as a wife she is to be set free without any payment of money from her (v. 11). This condition was put in the contract because young girls were frequently purchased with the intention of making prostitutes of them when they reached maturity.

There are many scriptures here:

Slave, Slavery - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Click to expand...

You are quick to accuse the OT of promoting the same racial type slavery that we’ve had in recent times but very slow to post the laws requiring proper care of slaves and the release of slaves after a certain time, usually six years for Jew slaves. But, as you said, your mind is made up to “your” interpretation.

Hentenza said:

You are quick to accuse the OT of promoting the same racial type slavery that we’ve had in recent times but very slow to post the laws requiring proper care of slaves and the release of slaves after a certain time, usually six years for Jew slaves. But, as you said, your mind is made up to “your” interpretation.

Click to expand...

There is no accusation. The 'old testamemt is God and His relationship with men. I do not accuse God.
Nor did I accuse you as you for some reason saw fit.
God, I've found, is perfectly capable of defending Himself.

Read the entire article and check the scriptures. Let God speak for Himself.
If you can find adequate evidence to in disputably prove your view. Lemme know. I'm not interested in going back and forth with some emotional verbiage without scripture.
And since you did not challenge the death penalty for kidnap and sale being specific to those offenses...

Palmfever said:

There is no accusation. The 'old testamemt is God and His relationship with men. I do not accuse God.
Nor did I accuse you as you for some reason saw fit.
God, I've found, is perfectly capable of defending Himself.

Read the entire article and check the scriptures. Let God speak for Himself.
If you can find adequate evidence to in disputably prove your view. Lemme know. I'm not interested in going back and forth with some emotional verbiage without scripture.
And since you did not challenge the death penalty for kidnap and sale being specific to those offenses...

Click to expand...

I’m not doubting the article and thanks for stating your intentions. I frequently see people here blame God for hard to explain verses and actions that they don’t agree with. Sort of a presentism.

My point was that historically there was slavery in antiquity primarily for the losers of wars. The victor would enslave the losers. The difference between Jews and the unbelievers was the commands of God via the law and scripture to treat the slaves fairly.

Hentenza said:

I’m not doubting the article and thanks for stating your intentions. I frequently see people here blame God for hard to explain verses and actions that they don’t agree with. Sort of a presentism.

My point was that historically there was slavery in antiquity primarily for the losers of wars. The victor would enslave the losers. The difference between Jews and the unbelievers was the commands of God via the law and scripture to treat the slaves fairly.

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Correct as far as treatment.
And I suspect that there were many decent slave owners in American history.
God is faultless.

Palmfever said:

Correct as far as treatment.
And I suspect that there were many decent slave owners in American history.
God is faultless.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

jamiec said:

This is a typically ignorant USA superstition, and typical Fundy thinking (which has deeply contaminated & defiled US Catholicism, sad to say).

Rights come partly from God, and partly from the State. Sometimes they agree or overlap, and sometimes they do not.

The stuff in the US constitution is of no legal force outside the US, and it certainly has no force in the Catholic Church. I’m not from the USA, and I do not care what the jokers responsible for the US Constitution said. We have our own legal traditions in the UK, and they do not include what the poxy US of A says.

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A non-American is likely unaware that it's from the Declaration of Independence, which lists causes of secession from the British Empire. It goes "We hold these Truths to be self evident, that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Now, if something is granted at the pleasure of the state, then it is a privilege, not a right. What is left unsaid is the assumption that the natural condition of a subject of the state is one with no privileges at all, for how can the state grant what a subject already has? And if all such things are privileges granted by the state, then how can a subject be aggrieved if the state withholds it? If a privilege belongs to the state, then the state can do with it as it sees fit. If, however, each person as rights, something inherent in them by simply being, then it's not a thing that is granted by the state. If it is a right granted by God, then a state that acts to remove them is acting against God Himself. Which was the point of bringing that up in the Declaration of Independence.

All of which Western Europeans apparently consider a pernicious superstition inherent in ignorant Americans, at least when they don't want Americans to come over and help with some war (and sometimes even then). And yet the roots of such is found is found in Western Europeans such as the Englishman John Locke.