• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

law discussions belong in the law/sabbath area, or controvertial.

Abraham1st

Active Member
Oct 1, 2025
128
10
53
bolton
✟8,772.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is separate to remind Jerusalem of the new FAITHFUL covenant...


Hosea 2:16 And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the Lord, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;
22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.
23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,682
834
Pacific NW, USA
✟171,214.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Randy says that there is goodness in all, in a delayed or unrecognised manner. That would be fine, but once the testimony of Christ was told to the world, the commandment to repent was given to all men, so the sin that became death was unbelief.
I don't know why you spend so much time gathering up passages of Scripture just to condemn Israel? What Israel experienced was an example for the world. If Israel backslid, and she did, then Christian nations have done the same.

The idea is to bring out another option--the option of Grace. When people repent by the Gospel they can escape the judgment that fell upon Israel and that now falls upon the world. That is what we should focus upon.

I don't think Israel or Jerusalem is the "Mother of Harlots" indicated in Rev 17. I think that role belongs to Rome, which was Christianized early in NT history. Rome has gone down the same path that Israel did, gradually and intermittently turning to compromise and gross sin. Certainly in the time of the Reformation Catholic abuses in Rome turned very ugly. And though things have improved over the course of the last number of centuries I think things may turn ugly again.

When Rome and Europe turns to the Antichrist the true Church will have to go underground for a short time. That will not just be an Israeli thing--it will be a Europe-wide thing, I believe.

Anyway, yes, I think all men were created with the capacity to do genuine good things. We see them every day. Even non-Christians can do good works--how can that be doubted?

But justification is what you mentioned, and I agree that despite all the good works men do they cannot be justified unless they turn to Christ for Grace. We are justified by faith in what Christ did and by faith in what he gives us by his mercy.

The environment in the world today has been breaking out in a fit of antiSemitism. Let's not involve ourselves in that ugly spirit. Why should we criticize the victims rather than the oppressors?
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,406
1,989
61
✟235,262.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
I don't have any hostility with respect to you or this subject, but you offer one final argument which I don't believe should go unanswered for any who may read this thread in the future. Your argument is that Jesus and the apostles kept the Sabbath Law throughout the New Covenant. I have answered this before, and will answer it again.

1) Jesus, during his earthly ministry, upheld the total number of requirements under the Law of Moses because this was before the cross, and when the Law of Moses was still in effect. Jesus keeping the Sabbath at this time, therefore, has zero bearing on this issue.

2) The Apostles kept the Sabbath after the cross because they were Jews, and naturally followed the tradition they had been raised with and the tradition prevalent among the Jewish People. It was a cultural tradition as much as it had been law under the Old Covenant. Keeping Sabbath observance is not the same thing as keeping Sabbath Law.

3) Paul taught that it was acceptable to observe the cultural traditions of people among whom evangelists and ministers of the Gospel have to work. They are cultural traditions and not endorsements of any law associated with those traditions. Paul made it clear that Christians are not under any law to observe religious days. They simply attempted to "fit in" with various cultures in order to not let peripheral matters become a stumbling block or impediment to the Gospel ministry among those peoples.

Let me be clear that I have Scriptures to back this up because repeatedly I've been told, falsely, that I do not use Scriptures to back up my claims. The main passage of Scripture I've been asked to focus on was Matt 5, where Jesus clarified that the *entire Law* was required at that time with all of the requirements, and not just some--not just the 10 Commandments or Sabbath Law, but all 613 or so requirements specified under the Law. And this would certainly include the 10 Commandments and Sabbath Law because they were all given to Israel at Horeb at the same time. Here are some of the appropriate passages in closing out my arguments here...

Mal 4.4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel."

Deut 4.10 Remember the day you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, when he said to me, “Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children.” 11 You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness. 12 Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice. 13 He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets. 14 And the Lord directed me at that time to teach you the decrees and laws you are to follow in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess.
5.1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the Lord and you to declare to you the word of the Lord, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:
6 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
7 “You shall have no other gods before me....
30 “Go, tell them to return to their tents. 31 But you stay here with me so that I may give you all the commands, decrees and laws you are to teach them to follow in the land I am giving them to possess....”
32 So be careful to do what the Lord your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left. 33 Walk in obedience to all that the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess.


Here, the day Israel approached Horeb, or Mt. Sinai, the Old Covenant was linked as covenant, represented by the 10 Commandments, to the entire sets of laws, as the agreement between God and Israel. The fact the 10 Commandments are separated as a subset of the entire Law is no different than distinguishing food laws or laws of feasts from the entire set of laws. They are all part of the same Covenant, the Old Covenant given to Israel at Horeb. The 10 Commandments merely represented, symbolically, the entire Covenant as a kind of moral summary of the Law at that time. (Matt 19.16-22)

That Jesus was under the Old Covenant at the time he gave the Sermon on the Mt. is clear from the following...

Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Please note two things here...
1) Jesus had come to confirm the Law as still in place during his earthly ministry.
2) Jesus had come to bring the observance of the Law to the point of being fulfilled *in himself.*

We later read in Matthew that fulfilling this Law entailed Jesus going to the cross, where the veil was rent, indicating that the requirements of the Law were no longer necessary to achieve access to God. Christ had become the sole means of access to God.

Matt 27.51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

Heb 9.8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning.


Paul accepted the cultural practice of things that were not law for Christians but were law for those in Judaism...

1 Cor 9.20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

Very well said!
 
Upvote 0