Multiple victims in Michigan church shooting; church on fire

FireDragon76 · Sunday at 8:22 PM

Oompa Loompa said:
For the uninformed masses, Mormons are classified under a "Christian" banner. So I do not think that Trump's words would have very much sway to anyone other than the most theologically informed Christians. Which leads me to belive that if general Christians cannot tell the difference, what makes you think that general non-christians can tell the difference? I am assuming this is not some radical Anti-Mormon nut job. But a "let's stick it to religious folk" nut job. Statistically, it is likely to be another religion hating liberal. But time will tell.

The acceptance of Mormons under the "religious Right" in the Republican party shouldn't be confused with actual theological rigor.

Many Evangelicals do not consider Mormons to be Christians. Even many historic churches would consider Mormon religion fundamentally flawed: Mormon theology is heterodox and not monotheistic. A Mormon baptism isn't recognized as valid in any historic Protestant or Catholic church.

RileyG · Sunday at 8:23 PM

Oompa Loompa said:
Agreed. This is what happens to a nation that no longer has the fear of the Lord. The ultimate result is a loss of human value. I have said it before, and I will say it again. Things are going to get worse before they get better. But it will not get better until the nation repents and returns to the Lord.

It will only get worse until Christ returns, imo.

RileyG · Sunday at 8:25 PM

Oompa Loompa said:
For the uninformed masses, Mormons are classified under a "Christian" banner. So I do not think that Trump's words would have very much sway to anyone other than the most theologically informed Christians. Which leads me to belive that if general Christians cannot tell the difference, what makes you think that general non-christians can tell the difference? I am assuming this is not some radical Anti-Mormon nut job. But a "let's stick it to religious folk" nut job. Statistically, it is likely to be another religion hating liberal. But time will tell.

They deny the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Jesus. Many Christians, myself included, don’t consider them Christians, along with Jehovah Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, Christian Science etc

rjs330 · Sunday at 8:31 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
Articles I'm reading are suggesting that he had pro-MAGA signage in his yard... so I think "this was some anti-conservative progressive person" are premature at this point.

So the question still remains of why. Ive got no problem with labeling him as a right winger. Okay. But this doesn't seem to fit political violence. This just seems like a targeted hit for some reason. What was the reason? Hopefully we will find out. What was this guys mental health status? Many questions right now.

rjs330 · Sunday at 8:35 PM

Hazelelponi said:
The political right are not Nazis and fascists, but call people that long enough and killing will occur.

This just doesn't seem like a politically based killing. There just isnt the political rhetoric surrounding the Mormons.

So I certainly wonder what was going on.

FireDragon76 · Sunday at 8:36 PM

RileyG said:
They deny the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Jesus. Many Christians, myself included, don’t consider them Christians, along with Jehovah Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, Christian Science etc

Mormon theology isn't rigorously systematized, but most of the Salt Lake-based sect believe in something like 19th century space opera, with a worldview that is based off the flawed astronomy and anthropology of that era. Of course, individual Mormons vary in how much they understand or believe this mythology, but it's part of traditional Mormon beliefs.

There are a minority of Mormons descended from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, today known as the Community of Christ. They were founded by some of Joseph Smith's surviving family after his assassination: they are Trinitarian, largely adhering to Mainline Protestant style biblical scholarship and seminary training, and ordaining men and women as clergy. Belief in the Book of Mormon is optional, though many clergy would not insist on its historical accuracy, but would understand it as something like a work of theological imagination.

Bradskii · Sunday at 8:47 PM

Oompa Loompa said:
Yeah, who were the leaders of the movement to free the slaves and wnd racial segregation? Christians. Whabout Democrats who supported slavery and Jim Crow?

They were...um...Christians as well. As were all the people that demanded segregation for well over the next 150 years.

Look, nominating some Christians as the good guys is all well and good. Except that you have to accept the fact that people who do bad things are also Christians. So being Christian in itself shouldn't be used as the determinant. It makes no sense. I'll lay good money on this killer being from a Christian home, raised Christian and was a regular at church at some point. Now...I may be wrong. But if I'm not, he didn't do it because he wasn't a Christian. And it would be equally nonsensical to say he did it because he was Christian.

Oompa Loompa · Sunday at 8:49 PM

FireDragon76 said:
The acceptance of Mormons under the "religious Right" in the Republican party shouldn't be confused with actual theological rigor.

Many Evangelicals do not consider Mormons to be Christians. Even many historic churches would consider Mormon religion fundamentally flawed: Mormon theology is heterodox and not monotheistic. A Mormon baptism isn't recognized as valid in any historic Protestant or Catholic church.

Yeah. What about it?

Bradskii · Sunday at 8:56 PM

JosephZ said:
I've seen the social media pages of the shooter's mother and other family members. He was a right-wing Christian and a strong Trump supporter.

OK, but let's not head down that path. It doesn't matter if he was Christian or specifically Mormon or dyed-in-the-wool atheist, or a registered Democrat or Republican or rusted on MAGA supporter.

He doesn't represent anyone but himself.

Let's not use this to start throwing rocks at each other.

Oompa Loompa · Sunday at 9:08 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
Articles I'm reading are suggesting that he had pro-MAGA signage in his yard... so I think "this was some anti-conservative progressive person" are premature at this point.

Did he have a MAGA sign in his yard? Or did his parents? Again, still waiting for the details.

JosephZ · Sunday at 9:16 PM

Oompa Loompa said:
Did he have a MAGA sign in his yard? Or did his parents? Again, still waiting for the details.

He had a Trump/Pence sign on his property and there are pictures of him wearing Trump shirts.

Oompa Loompa · Sunday at 9:22 PM

JosephZ said:
He had a Trump/Pence sign on his property and there are pictures of him wearing Trump shirts.

View attachment 370812

And?

RileyG · Sunday at 9:55 PM

FireDragon76 said:
Mormon theology isn't rigorously systematized, but most of the Salt Lake-based sect believe in something like 19th century space opera, with a worldview that is based off the flawed astronomy and anthropology of that era. Of course, individual Mormons vary in how much they understand or believe this mythology, but it's part of traditional Mormon beliefs.

There are a minority of Mormons descended from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, today known as the Community of Christ. They were founded by some of Joseph Smith's surviving family after his assassination: they are Trinitarian, largely adhering to Mainline Protestant style biblical scholarship and seminary training, and ordaining men and women as clergy. Belief in the Book of Mormon is optional, though many clergy would not insist on its historical accuracy, but would understand it as something like a work of theological imagination.

Yes, I’ve went to school with a family that had their grandmother a minister in the Community of Christ, their mother later was ordained without theological training; not to go off topic, but their cousins, who I graduated with, were part of the Church of Christ.

The Community of Christ has no creed and is considered rather liberal, so to speak. They have multiple rites and sacraments in their Church, and have their own temple in Missouri.

I had a Mormon science teacher. She was faithful but politically liberal to her core.

RileyG · Sunday at 9:57 PM

Bradskii said:
They were...um...Christians as well. As were all the people that demanded segregation for well over the next 150 years.

Look, nominating some Christians as the good guys is all well and good. Except that you have to accept the fact that people who do bad things are also Christians. So being Christian in itself shouldn't be used as the determinant. It makes no sense. I'll lay good money on this killer being from a Christian home, raised Christian and was a regular at church at some point. Now...I may be wrong. But if I'm not, he didn't do it because he wasn't a Christian. And it would be equally nonsensical to say he did it because he was Christian.

Well?

There were Christians who supported slavery and those who fiercely opposed it. That’s why there were schisms within the Baptist Church, Methodist Church, Presbyterian Church et al.

It’s such a messy, messy history, ugh.

Bradskii · Sunday at 10:07 PM

Oompa Loompa said:
And?

Look, you can't say 'And?' if you've already suggested that the signs could have been his parents. If you tried to imply that he wasn't responsible for them then you pretty much know what the implications of them would be if they were.

But here's the thing. It doesn't matter if he had pictures of Trump all over his bedroom walls. It doesn't matter if he had built a shrine to the guy in his garage. It doesn't matter if he's changed his name by deed poll to Mr. Maga. Those who pump bullets into innocent people don't represent your political beliefs. Or your religious ones for that matter. He just represents himself.

Now whether it turns out he is nothing but evil, or he is mentally ill and whatever he gives as his reasons, assuming he's still alive, then that will all come out in due course. But let's not try to score political points on another tragedy.

Bradskii · Sunday at 10:16 PM

RileyG said:
Well?

Well, you answered your own question yourself. You can't divide the world into Christians and Bad Guys, implying that all Christians are therefore Good Guys. Sometimes the good guys are those of faith. Sometimes they're not. Sometimes the bad guys are members of your own denomination. Sometimes they're not.

The implication was that if everyone was a Christian then all our problems would be solved. You have more Christians in your country than any other country on the planet. And more inmates in your prisons than any other country. I'm not saying that Christianity is the problem. That would be nonsensical. But to suggest that it's the solution to tragedies like this isn't facing reality.

Pommer · Sunday at 10:51 PM

NxNW said:
Should the government be forcing religion onto children?

Well, the “correct one”, sure.

durangodawood · Sunday at 11:04 PM

Tuur said:
Apparently (based on correspondence with Thomas Paine) the deist Benjamin Franklin thought that his era did, or he wouldn't have asked Paine "If men are so wicked as we now see them with religion, what would they be without it?"

He supposed that his era produced a more moral society than future more secular eras. He didnt know either way, of course.

Tuur said:
Franklin saw religious instruction as being important in instilling the sense that some things are not done. Agree with that or disagree, it was Franklin's belief.

In that era there werent a whole lot of available options other than religious instruction for the inculcation of social values. So of course he was absolutely correct. It was important! But that doesn't help us compare to alternatives.

And of course, since his time, we've decided - as noted in the bill of rights - that its not the state's place to be advancing this or that religious understanding. And back then it was just competing versions of Christianity that were, to put it mildly, problematic. Now we'd have to throw Islam and Buddhism and whatever else into the curriculum. Best for the state to step back and let this be a personal matter.

I would agree tho that we've lost a (formerly) compelling format for the transmission of social values. I think schools can still teach norms of good behavior. But its quite the ask for them to compete against tiktok and that whole world.

Gene2memE · Monday at 12:02 AM

Oompa Loompa said:
Why does that matter? Can you name a single mass school shooting prior to Columbine?

Stockton shooting during the very late 1980s. I remember because it happened a few weeks before the first time I visited the US.

Oompa Loompa said:
Obviously, the pattern shows that the further a nation becomes more secular, human life has less value.

Except, that doesn't seem to hold true for the US. Or any other nation. In fact, it appears that the INVERSE is (modestly) true.

Consider this:

Rates of murder and violent crime in the US have declined roughly 55% since they peaked in the early 1990s. However, over the same time:

The share of US citizens who identify as non-religious/not religiously affiliated has increased from about 5-6% to 22-29% (depending on survey).
The share of US citizens who consider religion as important in their daily lives has declined from roughly 60-65% to roughly 45-50%.

There is also a weakly positive correlation (roughly 0.2) between the religiosity of US states and rates of violence, and the weakly negative correlation between the lack of religiosity of US states and rates of violence (about -0.2).

Of course, this doesn't imply causation. There are plenty of confounding variables and other correlates (like income inequality, generalised development level, youth unemployment and educational attainment) that better explain the variability in rates of violence between US states.

Gene2memE · Monday at 12:14 AM

Sir Joseph said:
For 300 years, using the New England Primer, McGuffey Reader, Blue Back Speller, and Holy Bible, the nation's schools taught Christian doctrine pervasively.

In that time, in no order, you had the following:

Slavery
The Civil War
The Trail of Tears
The Indian Wars
The Mountain Meadows Massacre
Phillipine-American war
Overthrow of the Hawaiian Government
The various Reconstruction-era massacres of freed slaves.
Tulsa Race Riots

To name just a few.

Sir Joseph said:
That ingrained upon all children a sense of objective moral values, individual responsibility, respect for others, law and order, and eventual judgement before God. That all changed in the second half of the 20th century with the removal of God, the Bible and prayer from the classrooms.

Rose-tinted [redacted]

Those children ingrained with "a sense of objective moral values, individual responsibility, respect for others, law and order, and eventual judgement before God" grew up to commit theft, violence and murder at much higher rates than we do today.

Multiple victims in Michigan church shooting; church on fire

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