Multiple victims in Michigan church shooting; church on fire

[Aryeh Jay]

Should the government be forcing religion onto children?

Yes, as long as it is the correct one.

 

[bèlla]

Agreed. This is what happens to a nation that no longer has the fear of the Lord. The ultimate result is a loss of human value. I have said it before, and I will say it again. Things are going to get worse before they get better. But it will not get better until the nation repents and returns to the Lord.

I don’t need to believe in God to know this is wrong. There’s millions of people around the world who wouldn’t do the same and they aren’t believers. Faith doesn’t fix everything or prevent it.

~bella

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Enlisting in the marines should be reclassified as a mental disorder.


Posting the ten commandments is nothing more than red meat for the simple minded, authoritarian part of the base. Not only is it wildly unconstitutional, but it’s not how you win people to christ.

Your post is not going to last very long. Sorry, not sorry.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

I don’t need to believe in God to know this is wrong. There’s millions of people around the world who wouldn’t do the same and they aren’t believers. Faith doesn’t fix everything or prevent it.

~bella

What is your justification for your beliefs?

 

[iluvatar5150]

So basically there was relatively no mass shootings in schools.



Yes. Gang violence was a thing where one kid tried killing another kid for one reason or another. But never a mass, indiscriminate killing.

It would be great if you took a few minutes to read a source and understand it before summarizing it in so confidently incorrect a manner. Would you like me to point out the ones that undermine your point, or do you think you can manage that for yourself?

Blacks and Indian as non-human? Another red herring has entered the conversation.

It’s not a red herring. To refresh your memory, the comment of yours to which I was replying was this:

“Obviously, the pattern shows that the further a nation becomes more secular, human life has less value.”

What I was implying with my response was that it’s easy to juice your value-per-human-life quotient when you redefine your victims as less than human.

Or, to put it another way - your claim is ridiculous and you can’t support it without egregiously cherry picking your examples.

You’re black, right? Back when we were supposedly so godly, I could’ve had you hung for sassing me like you’re doing here. How does that factor into your equation?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

It would be great if you took a few minutes to read a source and understand it before summarizing it in so confidently incorrect a manner. Would you like me to point out the ones that undermine your point, or do you think you can manage that for yourself?


It’s not a red herring. To refresh your memory, the comment of yours to which I was replying was this:

“Obviously, the pattern shows that the further a nation becomes more secular, human life has less value.”

What I was implying with my response was that it’s easy to juice your value-per-human-life quotient when you redefine your victims as less than human.

Or, to put it another way - your claim is ridiculous and you can’t support it without egregiously cherry picking your examples.

You’re black, right? Back when we were supposedly so godly, I could’ve had you hung for sassing me like you’re doing here. How does that factor into your equation?

Yeah, who were the leaders of the movement to free the slaves and wnd racial segregation? Christians. Whabout Democrats who supported slavery and Jim Crow?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Trump's not helping by spouting off on this one.

It's a stretch to suggest that Mormonism is part of Christianity. Pastor Jeffress (who's big in the evangelical movement) once referred to them as a cult.

Not to mention, the Mormon church has had their own fair share of sex abuse scandals to deal with. If it turns out that this guy was someone who was a victim (or knew a victim) of such forms of abuse, and that was his motivation, that's going to turn Trump's post into a real "egg on the face" moment.

 

[JosephZ]

This is purely speculation, but the individual that killed Charlie Kirk came from a Mormon family who are longtime members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It's possible this attack is related to the killing of Charlie Kirk. The shooter's mother has several posts about Charlie Kirk on her Facebook profile, so that adds to the speculation.

.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

This is purely speculation, but the individual that killed Charlie Kirk came from a Mormon family who are longtime members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It's possible this attack is related to the killing of Charlie Kirk. The shooter's mother has several posts about Charlie Kirk on her Facebook profile, so that adds to the speculation.

View attachment 370798


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I'd initially considered that possibility...although the "wrench in the gears" of that theory would be that the Mormon church is arguably more "anti-Trans" than the Christian churches.

Per the NY Times:
In August 2024, the church updated its official handbook to explicitly prohibit transgender individuals (those who have transitioned socially or medically) from participating in activities involving children, serving in teaching or priesthood roles, or being baptized if they have transitioned in any capacity. The updated guidance also requires records of trans members to be annotated, akin to records for sexual predators or abusers, and forbids overnight camp attendance in gendered contexts not matching original sex assignment.

Given that the motive in the Charlie Kirk killing seemed to be centered around the fact that the shooter (who was intimately involved with a trans person) believed Kirk's stance on the matter represented "hate that can't be negotiated with", Robinson's motive for shooting Charlie certainly didn't come from the Mormon church.

 

[kinshasa19]

This is Psyop, and you are all being played. The 'patsy' that allegedly murdered Kirk was a mormon. Now we get 'vengeance' from the 'far right'.
Throw in Transgenderism, stir well and serve. Division folks.
The number one aim for the ptb at the moment is to revoke your 2nd Amendment. I'm from England, even I can see it.
Divide and Conquer. Problem, reaction, solution. Wake up and pray earnestly for DISCERNMENT. GOD BLESS.

 

[Tuur]

No longer?

When is the era when we did have proper fear of the Lord?

Apparently (based on correspondence with Thomas Paine) the deist Benjamin Franklin thought that his era did, or he wouldn't have asked Paine "If men are so wicked as we now see them with religion, what would they be without it?" Franklin saw religious instruction as being important in instilling the sense that some things are not done. Agree with that or disagree, it was Franklin's belief.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

View attachment 370799

Trump's not helping by spouting off on this one.

It's a stretch to suggest that Mormonism is part of Christianity. Pastor Jeffress (who's big in the evangelical movement) once referred to them as a cult.

Not to mention, the Mormon church has had their own fair share of sex abuse scandals to deal with. If it turns out that this guy was someone who was a victim (or knew a victim) of such forms of abuse, and that was his motivation, that's going to turn Trump's post into a real "egg on the face" moment.

For the uninformed masses, Mormons are classified under a "Christian" banner. So I do not think that Trump's words would have very much sway to anyone other than the most theologically informed Christians. Which leads me to belive that if general Christians cannot tell the difference, what makes you think that general non-christians can tell the difference? I am assuming this is not some radical Anti-Mormon nut job. But a "let's stick it to religious folk" nut job. Statistically, it is likely to be another religion hating liberal. But time will tell.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I'd initially considered that possibility...although the "wrench in the gears" of that theory would be that the Mormon church is arguably more "anti-Trans" than the Christian churches.

Per the NY Times:
In August 2024, the church updated its official handbook to explicitly prohibit transgender individuals (those who have transitioned socially or medically) from participating in activities involving children, serving in teaching or priesthood roles, or being baptized if they have transitioned in any capacity. The updated guidance also requires records of trans members to be annotated, akin to records for sexual predators or abusers, and forbids overnight camp attendance in gendered contexts not matching original sex assignment.

Given that the motive in the Charlie Kirk killing seemed to be centered around the fact that the shooter (who was intimately involved with a trans person) believed Kirk's stance on the matter represented "hate that can't be negotiated with", Robinson's motive for shooting Charlie certainly didn't come from the Mormon church.

You completely misread @JosephZ 's "speculation". It doesn't have anything to do with "transgender". It's a pretty straight forward revenge theory that goes something like this:

"(Michigan attacker's thoughts): 1. Charlie Kirk was one of Us. 2. A Mormon killed Charlie Kirk. 3. I will kill Mormons."

Expecting rational arguments in the mind of an attacker like this is a fools errand. For all we know he was planning an attack on this location for months for reasons that none of us have conceived.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

For the uninformed masses, Mormons are classified under a "Christian" banner. So I do not think that Trump's words would have very much sway to anyone other than the most theologically informed Christians. Which leads me to belive that if general Christians cannot tell the difference, what makes you think that general non-christians can tell the difference? I am assuming this is not some radical Anti-Mormon nut job. But a "let's stick it to religious folk" nut job. Statistically, it is likely to be another religion hating liberal. But time will tell.

Articles I'm reading are suggesting that he had pro-MAGA signage in his yard... so I think "this was some anti-conservative progressive person" are premature at this point.

 

[JosephZ]

I am assuming this is not some radical Anti-Mormon nut job. But a "let's stick it to religious folk" nut job. Statistically, it is likely to be another religion hating liberal. But time will tell.

I've seen the social media pages of the shooter's mother and other family members. He was a right-wing Christian and a strong Trump supporter.

 

[Servus]

Two church members being interviewed on Fox 2 Detroit said the man wasn't known to them.

The idea of him having been a member of that church seems unlikely now.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Back to back shootings from marine Iraq war vets. Should I expect calls for all marine vets to be barred from firearm ownership and involuntarily committed or is collective guilt confined to trans folks?

War vets are a class by themselves honestly. The shooter in Carolina was known as unwell after a traumatic injury sustained in Iraq

That kind of stuff is the governments fault - my opinion - simply because not everyone comes back okay.

The environment we live in is not positive for those who suffer from PTSD, and I think Carolina man was also diagnosed schizophrenic, but that might not be verified yet.

That's the reason we need to be careful how we talk about and to one another in media etc. Not everyone is able to handle the nonsense.

Just so you know - I put trans in the same category of potentially mentally unstable and in the same way, though not from war, of being unable to handle the current rhetoric and solid reason to be better.

The political right are not Nazis and fascists, but call people that long enough and killing will occur.

If we can't stop, we won't be able to stop the killing at some point, and it will just be a war.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I think all we can really conclude from the events of the last 15 years or longer is that persons with propensity toward violence come from all walks of life driven by their own agendas, idiosyncratic thinking, and/or mental illness. "Crazy" is no respecter of political party, religion, gender, gender identity, or military service. May God help them and God help us all.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

I've seen the social media pages of the shooter's mother and other family members. He was a right-wing Christian and a strong Trump supporter.

I'm wondering if this person a Charlie Kirk fan.

 

[JosephZ]

I'm wondering if this person a Charlie Kirk fan.

His mother certainly was.