Israel-Hamas Thread II

Hentenza said:

Given that you used the pictures of the destruction of Gaza to describe the destruction so does the pictures of WWII depict the same. What you are not understanding, or ignoring because it doesn’t fit with your narrative, is the devastation that war can cause and that the aggressor is the one that was destroyed and their people suffered and died. In the WWII theater it was the nazi and the Japanese that were the aggressors while in the present conflict it is Hamas that is the aggressor. Maybe a little study if history might help you with your analysis.

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There is a clear misconception here: history did not start on October 7. Palestine was not a "land without a people" because people were living there and they were mostly Arabs. The Zionist project was to replace a largely Arab population with a largely Jewish population, and this was done violently in 1948 and thereafter. One incident that Israeli governments tried to cover up was the Tantura massacre:

The Tantura massacre took place on the 22–23 May 1948 during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, when Palestinian villagers were massacred by Israel's Haganah, namely the Alexandroni Brigade. The massacre occurred after the surrender of the village of Tantura, a small village of roughly 1,500 people located near Haifa. The number of those killed is unknown, with estimates ranging from "dozens" to 200+.[1][2][3][a]Tantura massacre - Wikipedia[c][4]

Oral testimonies by surviving Palestinians were met by skepticism. A corroborative 1998 thesis by an Israeli Haifa University graduate Theodore Katz, who interviewed Israeli veterans and survivors, was also met with denial. In a 2022 Israeli documentary film called Tantura, several Israeli veterans interviewed said they had witnessed a massacre at Tantura after the village had surrendered. In 2023, Forensic Architecture published its commissioned investigation of the area and concluded that there were three potential gravesites in the area of the Tel Dor beach that were connected to a massacre.

After the massacre, most of the village was destroyed and its residents were expelled, forming a part of the broader expulsion of Palestinians during the 1948 war and the Nakba. Many of the women and children were transported to the nearby town of Furaydis. The Israeli kibbutz and beach resort of Nahsholim was established on the site of the depopulated village. The victims were buried in mass graves, one of them presently beneath a parking lot for the nearby Tel Dor beach.

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It can be understood as a Nakba equivalent to the Oradour-sur-Glane massacre which stands as a permanent memorial in France, except here the memorial is a car park! That's the state of Israel for you.

That being said, there was no justification for October 7 or for all the death and destruction Israel has meted out on Gaza since then, and since 1948 in Gaza and the West Bank and surrounding countries.

More information here: UK study of 1948 Israeli massacre of Palestinian village reveals mass grave sites

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“Hamas ominously released what it called a “parting image” Saturday of the remaining 48 Israelis being held captive in Gaza, as the Jewish state’s ground troops prepare to close in on Gaza City.

The image is a compilation of the faces of the captives, with the name Ron Arad inscribed below each one.

Arad was an Israeli air force pilot who went missing during a 1986 bombing mission in southern Lebanon, who is believed to have been captured and since died. He is still officially classified as missing.”


There is Hamas for you.

Vanellus said:

There is a clear misconception here: history did not start on October 7. Palestine was not a "land without a people" because people were living there and they were mostly Arabs. The Zionist project was to replace a largely Arab population with a largely Jewish population, and this was done violently in 1948 and thereafter. One incident that Israeli governments tried to cover up was the Tantura massacre:



It can be understood as a Nakba equivalent to the Oradour-sur-Glane massacre which stands as a permanent memorial in France, except here the memorial is a car park! That's the state of Israel for you.

That being said, there was no justification for October 7 or for all the death and destruction Israel has meted out on Gaza since then, and since 1948 in Gaza and the West Bank and surrounding countries.

More information here: UK study of 1948 Israeli massacre of Palestinian village reveals mass grave sites

​

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The origins of the Tantura story

To get to the bottom of the matter, one must journey back in time to the origin of the story—to the first study or report that supposedly established the existence of the hitherto unknown massacre.

Although the events (not always the backstory or reasons, but certainly the actual facts) of the War of Independence were well documented, there is no reference to a massacre in Tantura, the later-reported magnitude of which surpasses even the most famous “massacre” of Deir Yassin—which has never been denied by the Israelis.

There were no contemporary reports—Israeli, Arab or third-party— about any such massacre in Tantura in 1948.

The story of Tantura first gained prominence in 2000, after a Masters degree candidate at the University of Haifa, Theodore (Teddy) Katz, whose research was awarded the high grade of 97, told a reporter about his main findings. Katz’s thesis asserted that on May 22-23, 1948, the Israel Defense Forces had killed between 200-250 unarmed inhabitants of the Arab fishing village of Tantura. According to the thesis, this killing was in cold blood and occurred after the village had surrendered.

These findings were astonishing. No massacre had previously been recorded in Tantura; indeed, no massacre of such magnitude had been recorded in all of Israel’s history.

The reporter published an account of the Tantura massacre in the leading Israeli newspaper Maariv on Jan. 21, 2000. Appalled veterans of the Alexandroni Brigade, the unit that had taken the village, sued Katz for libel, denying his account and asserting he had fabricated evidence.

In contrast, leading figures in the Israeli peace camp made Katz’s defense their fund-raising cause du jour. The trial took place in Tel Aviv in December 2000. After two days’ cross-examination in court, Katz admitted he had fabricated the evidence of his thesis, and that the interviews upon which he claimed to have based his findings never in fact happened. He agreed to sign a statement that nullified his research.

In the statement, Katz admitted that “after checking and rechecking the evidence it is clear to me now, beyond any doubt, that there is no basis whatsoever for the allegation that the Alexandroni Brigade, or any other fighting unit of the Jewish forces, committed killing of people in Tantura after the village surrendered.”


The massacre in Tantura never happened.

The motivation of those who committed the Tantura massacre and the Israeli state to seek to discredit those who testified to it is blindingly obvious. You omitted the fact that Katz sought to rescind his denial to the court and that there was likely blackmail going on from his university over awarding him a degree.

Bilal Maraqa's testimony

My uncle, Adnan Yahya, was born in Tantura, PaIestine. At 17, when Zionist militias attacked his village, he was seized—one of ~40 boys forced to bury their own neighbors, friends, and family members.
Marched away at gunpoint, hands raised on his head, he locked eyes with his mother—holding his baby brother and sisters. He gave them the only comfort he could: a warm, luminating smile. He thought it might be the last time they’d see him and he wanted them to remember him smiling.
He buried the living with the dead. One body was his best friend’s father—wounded but still breathing.
“Adnan, that’s my dad. He’s alive. What do we do?”
His reply, calm through horror: “We have no choice. We may end up buried with him.”
Half the boys were kiIIed that day. He survived—only to be sent to a forced-labor prison camp with my grandfather, my uncle, and my father, who was only 15.
After several years, he was released and expelled to Syria with the rest of our family. They arrived with nothing—no home, no belongings, no money, no childhood, now refugees—he rebuilt everything. He taught school in Syria. He studied. And finally had an opportunity to study in Germany. Without speaking a word of German, he learned it in months, and became a respected doctor—healing others while quietly healing himself.
In his final years, he watched Gaza burn—77 years after Tantura—and wept. His heart never stopped breaking for his people. His love never dimmed.
He was the most extraordinary human I’ve ever known. I will miss him beyond language.
Rest in power, Uncle (Amo) Adnan.
Your smile still lights the dark.

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https://archive.ph/20241116022006/h...dies.org/en/node/41016#selection-963.0-973.84

Since the thesis was written, several other pieces of evidence have come to light that reinforce Katz's findings. Four documents were extracted from the IDF archives. One was a report mentioning twenty Palestinians killed in the battle, [10] followed by a report a week later from IDF headquarters complaining that the unburied corpses in the village could lead to the spread of epidemics and typhoid. [11] In the third document, the Israeli general chief of staff inquired about reports that had reached him "about irregularities in Tantura" and received the response that "overenthusiasm because of the victory" had led to some damage inflicted "immediately after our people entered the place." [12] Finally, a document from the Alexandroni Brigade to IDF headquarters in June notes: "We have tended to the mass grave, and everything is in order." [13]

Another piece of evidence Katz had not been aware of was a passage in a 1951 Palestinian memoir that includes a graphic description of the massacre. It is brought by Marwan Iqab al-Yihya, a survivor who had reached Haifa after the massacre and described to the author what he had seen with his own eyes. [14] Additional testimonies were recently collected from Tantura survivors living in refugee camps in Syria by a Palestinian researcher, Mustafa al-Wali, and published in the Palestinian journal Majallat al-Dirasat al-Filastiniyya. [15] Some of these testimonies are reproduced in the current issue of this journal

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Is it not time for you to stop making false statements in defence of Israel?

The Massacres of Lydd (Lod) and Ramle During the 1948 Nakba

On 11 July, the Israeli warplanes launched intensive raids on Lydd and Ramle while the people broke their fast during the holy month of Ramadan. The Zionists militias seized control of both cities on 12 July. Several testimonies[6] confirmed that the Israelis detained, shot, and killed dozens of civilians, and the males were called on to gather in the Great Mosque, the Dahmash Mosque, and the churches. It was also confirmed that the Israelis shot and killed dozens of those who took shelter in the Dahmash Mosque. In support of these testimonies, and according to Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, the Israeli forces killed 426 men, women, and children in a local mosque and nearby streets. In total, 176 bodies were found inside the mosque, and the rest were found outside.

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Half the city flees: Hamas drives Gaza to ruin.

Five days after the start of the ground offensive in Gaza, Israeli authorities estimate that around half a million residents have left the city. Accounts from civilians reveal despair and misery, but the cause lies not with Israel, but with the reign of terror imposed by Hamas, which is abusing its own population as a human shield.

The battle for Gaza City is entering a decisive phase. Israeli security sources estimate that over 500,000 residents have already fled, out of a total population of around one million. IDF units are systematically destroying Hamas' infrastructure, but are holding back on attacks on tunnel systems as Israeli hostages are believed to still be held there.

Refugees tell of destroyed homes, of nighttime marches, of children forced to carry heavy loads, and of sick people being pushed in wheelchairs along makeshift paths. They tell of exorbitant prices for accommodation, of people who can no longer find a place to stay and are camping on the bare ground in the south.

But what is missing from many of these accounts is a clear identification of who is to blame. It was not Israel that locked civilians in houses and mosques, it was not Israel that built rocket launchers in densely populated neighborhoods, it was Hamas. Hamas has turned Gaza into a gigantic fortress where civilians are deliberately abused as human shields. Those who are fleeing now are doing so because Hamas has sacrificed its own people.



A report in the Lebanese newspaper al-Akhbar states that Egypt is preparing for mass refugee movements at the Rafah crossing. Soldiers are being deployed to the Sinai, including to demilitarized zones. Cairo considers an uncontrolled exodus to be a direct threat to national security. But here, too, it is not Israel that has conjured up this scenario, but Hamas, which refuses to lay down its arms and bring the population to safety.

The fact that Egypt is even sending heavy weapons to the border shows that Hamas is no longer just a threat to Israel, but to the entire region.

The mass exodus from Gaza is not a spontaneous catastrophe, but the direct result of decades of Hamas policy: money for terror instead of infrastructure, tunnels instead of housing, rockets instead of hospitals. The suffering of the civilian population is planned, it serves as propaganda to put international pressure on Israel.

For Israel, one thing is clear: the goal remains the destruction of Hamas structures. For the people of Gaza, this means flight and deprivation today. But the responsibility lies with those who have turned their city into a battlefield – not with those who have to defend their security after Oct 7.

Until 2005, more than 8,000 Jewish settlers lived in more than 20 settlements in the Gaza Strip.

In 2004, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon announced that these settlements would be evacuated. The "Palestinian" Arabs celebrated the abandonment of the Jewish settlements with chaotic celebrations. The "Palestinian" police were unable to control the chaos.

When the Israelis pulled out of Gaza, they left the "Palestinians" in Gaza with an entire infrastructure of greenhouses with which they could have developed a thriving economy. All the equipment was left for them, computers, irrigation, temperature controls, systems, paid for by Canadian and other foreign investors and with ISrael’s total approval.

What became of them?

"Palestinians" looted the former Jewish settlements. Even the police were unable to deter them from their raids on the evacuated Jewish settlements. During a visit to Neve Dekalim, "Palestinian" Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei called on the crowd to at least preserve the state-of-the-art greenhouses left behind by the settlers, which produced agricultural products worth almost one billion shekels (approx. 300 million USD) a year:

"No one should damage anything that could be useful to our people."

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The "Palestinian" Authority hoped to use the up to 4,000 (!) technically well-equipped greenhouses for the local agricultural economy.

In the neighbouring settlement of Gadid, however, plastic sheeting, hoses and other individual parts were stolen and took them as scrap metal to be sold to the highest bidder.

The greenhouses had been left standing after private individuals from the United States had collected around 15 million dollars in donations to buy them from Israel. James Wolfensohn, then head of the World Bank, contributed half a million dollars of his own money to ensure that the "Palestinians" could retain this source of income.

Within days the greenhouses had been so badly damaged by "Palestinians" that no one bothered to rebuild them. I call this the Locust behaviour.

Give a man a fish he will eat fish for a day. Give a man a fishing rod he will eat fish for a lifetime… Give a Arab a fishing rod he will try and make a bomb out of it to murder some Jews.

That is the problem. The Jews gave a highly functioning area with underground irrigation, sewage, and drinking supplies. Plants/crops; i.e everything to form a functioning prosperous society from.

The Arabs wrecked it all with one goal in mind. Kill every last Jew. They built a vast network of over 700km worth of tunnels underground and destroyed all of the piping to make rocket launchers from. Didn’t feed the agriculture so they all died and just turned the topsoil into a wasteland.

Here is something to compare in your own head. The Channel Tunnel is 50km long. It cost 4 billion to make. Gaza has 700km of tunnels underground and they are huge aqueduct-sized tunnels that would have needed tunnel boring machines the size of those needed to build the channel tunnel to form. These are not shovel and bucket-type tunnels. It is a huge reinforced aqueduct-sized underground tunnel.

The elected leaders of Gaza don’t even live there. They live in the UAE, Qatar and Turkey, they drive Ferraris and have large Yoghts and live in huge mansions.

It seems that "Palestinian" Arabs are the absolute definition of a money-squandering, resource-squandering group of people.



When the only priorities you have are to kill Jews, destroy Israel, brainwash your own children to become suicide bombers, and stockpile missiles, I.E.D.s, and suicide vests in your cellars, schools, hospitals, and mosques instead of building a good life, hey, nothing is more urgent or important than that!

Never mind a safe, calm, prosperous life with the priceless resources and natural blessings you’ve walked into, yours for the taking and maintaining, to raise your own family and enjoy a good life.

If you hate The Jews, and Western Civilization and all of the good things to enjoy from them on this Earth, what could possibly be more important than destroying all of that? Nothing else matters.

The Israeli’s left the infrastructures intact to enable Gaza to start a thriving economy. This would ensure an economic entity that would be at peace with Israel. The reality was that the Arabs totally destroyed the entire infrastructure.

Fair and democratic elections were scheduled for a few months following the Israeli withdrawal.

And in those few months everything fell apart. In the days following the withdrawal Hamas instigated mobs to ransack the abandoned Israeli settlements, smashing the greenhouses, burning the homes and desecrating the synagogues. At the same time they started sending low grade rockets into Israeli settlements adjoining Gaza. Because of the poor quality they caused more anxiety among the occupants of those settlements than damage but it was an ominous sign of things to come.

Hamas defeated the Palestinian Authority and has not held elections since then. So much for democracy in Gaza. From the outset Hamas has made clear that it has only one over-riding goal - i.e. the total elimination of Israel and the vast majority of its Jewish inhabitants. To that end it has used every tool in their tool box including anything they could take from the naive, (and maybe not so naive), humanitarian agencies to further that goal.

Concrete which was supposed to rebuild homes destroyed by Israeli bombs was used to build tunnels under Israeli, (and Egyptian), territory for purposes of infiltration as well as to develop bunkers for rockets that had grown increasingly efficient and can now reach beyond Tel Aviv. Money that was supposed to go to hospitals, schools and housing for the masses has instead gone to the Hamas elite and any google of Gaza city will show these luxurious shopping malls, hotels and homes partially hidden in among the horrid slums where the majority of people live. Were it not for the UN agencies there would probably be no schools, medical facilities or even basic necessities for the masses because what monies Hamas doesn’t siphon off to build there tunnels and smuggle in their weapons they use for the leadership’s comfort.

And meanwhile they have convinced the world and the Palestinian common people that this is all the fault of Israel and the Jews and once Israel is destroyed and “the streets run with Jewish blood” there will be a world beyond their fondest dreams awaiting them. They glorify suicide bombers and no festival is complete with young children wearing mock suicide belts and singing blood curdling anti-Semitic songs. They convince the inhabitants that if only they can mass the manpower they can run across the border into Israel and start the slaughter that will reclaim Palestine from the river, (Jordan) to the Sea, (Mediterranean).

The "Palestinians" are not so much intersted in building a state as in destroying one. I hope they never do, because if they ever succeeded they certainly would not know what to do with each other and start killing each other.

Both the PA and the Hamas are corrupt organizations which use the money intended for the people for their own needs. The PA lost Gaza to a Jihadic Islamic group which ruled through terror. It also murdered all opposition. and now, after all this time, and even almost twenty years of independence and no israeli presence in Gaza, nothing has happened.

So what’s life like for the common people of Gaza?

Pretty damn bad!



The Arabs DESTROYED EVERYTHING. They smashed and stole and ripped apart every single thing in a highly developed instructure that could have boosted their ecconomy and moved them out of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]holoe they live in into something reasonably good, developing, thriving, becoming the Singapore of the Middle East.

So why don’t we just “lift the apartheid blockade” and just let them into Israel with no checks, no balances, no security?

Very simple: have you seen the permanent protests, trying to break through the security fence, have you seen the incendiary balloons sent into Israeli fields and villages?

Have you seen the destruction of agriculture and wiildlife casuesd by fires from these balloons?

Have to you seen another trick, a football loaded with explosives, in the hope that a kid would begin playing with it?

The massacre carried out by the Islamist Hamas and other terrorist groups was an accelerant for the Middle East conflict. The Amalekites symbolised relentless and unprovoked attacks on G-d's people. The modern terrorist organisations Hamas (in Gaza) and Hezbollah (in Lebanon) manifest themselves like the spirit of Amalek. They were terrible enemies and remain eternal enemies of G-d's people, the Jews, to this day.

Vanellus said:

There is a clear misconception here: history did not start on October 7. Palestine was not a "land without a people" because people were living there and they were mostly Arabs.

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Historically, the land of Israel belongs to the Jewish people, who have a deep historical and religious connection to the land dating back thousands of years and forming the basis for the establishment of the modern State of Israel in 1948.

The land of Canaan, which includes parts of present-day Israel, was inhabited by the Canaanites in ancient times. Later, it became part of biblical Israel and the Jewish Empire before being conquered by the Romans and the Jews being expelled.

There were no Arabs in "Palestine" 2,000 years ago, as the significant migration of Arab populations to the region occurred with the Islamic conquests in the 7th century CE. While there were Semitic peoples present, including the Canaanites and later Jews who were the majority until Roman-era expulsions, Arabs as a distinct, large-scale group were not indigenous to the area.

The first Middle East war cost the lives of 6,000 Jews (one per cent of the Jewish population at the time) and countless Arabs. It led to the flight and expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Arabs from "Palestine". It did not destroy the Jewish state, but eliminated Arab "Palestine". After this war, Jordan ruled Judea and Samaria and Egypt ruled the Gaza Strip until 1967: between 1948 and 1967, the Arabs from "Palestine" disappeared from the scene as a national group.

Why was the destruction of the Jewish sub-state more important to the Arabs than the establishment of their own?

Hentenza said:

“Hamas ominously released what it called a “parting image” Saturday of the remaining 48 Israelis being held captive in Gaza, as the Jewish state’s ground troops prepare to close in on Gaza City.

The image is a compilation of the faces of the captives, with the name Ron Arad inscribed below each one.

Arad was an Israeli air force pilot who went missing during a 1986 bombing mission in southern Lebanon, who is believed to have been captured and since died. He is still officially classified as missing.”

Hamas releases ‘parting image’ of 48 remaining captives, vowing that Israel will never see them again

Hamas ominously released what it called a “parting image” Saturday of the remaining 48 Israelis being held captive in Gaza, as the Jewish state’s ground troops prepare to close in on Gaza Cit…

nypost.com

There is Hamas for you.

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There is another misconception here: that I am seeking to defend the terrorist group Hamas. But why are you defending the terrorist IDF and its political masters, the terrorist government of Israel. The government of Israel is using its military forces to terrorise the people of Gaza and force their mass expulsion - and treating them like cockroaches. They force them to flee from one place to another only to blow up the so called new safe place. Jews enjoying their coffee in the cafes of Tel Aviv have a very different lifestyle.

Vanellus said:

The government of Israel is using its military forces to terrorise the people of Gaza and force their mass expulsion - and treating them like cockroaches. They force them to flee from one place to another only to blow up the so called new safe place. Jews enjoying their coffee in the cafes of Tel Aviv have a very different lifestyle.

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Those who condemn Israel's military actions without addressing the criminal basis for them sacrifice credibility. It is not Israel that has conjured up this scenario, but Hamas, which refuses to lay down its arms and bring the population to safety. The goal remains to destroy Hamas' structures. For the people of Gaza, this means flight and deprivation today. But the responsibility lies with those who have turned their city into a battlefield.

Benaiah468 said:

Those who condemn Israel's military actions without addressing the criminal basis for them sacrifice credibility. It is not Israel that has conjured up this scenario, but Hamas, which refuses to lay down its arms and bring the population to safety. The goal remains to destroy Hamas' structures. For the people of Gaza, this means flight and deprivation today. But the responsibility lies with those who have turned their city into a battlefield.

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This ignores nearly everything that has happened over the last 100 years or so including the Nakba. Booby trapping the sergeants was certainly a criminal act but there were so many more perpetrated by Irgun and other Jewish terrorists. Wearing an IDF uniform doesn't mean one can't be a terrorist. The idea that Hamas laying down their arms will mean safety for the people of Gaza is a social media invention which is not born out by the avowed intentions of the Israeli leadership.

Vanellus said:

This ignores nearly everything that has happened over the last 100 years or so including the Nakba. Booby trapping the sergeants was certainly a criminal act but there were so many more perpetrated by Irgun and other Jewish terrorists. Wearing an IDF uniform doesn't mean one can't be a terrorist. The idea that Hamas laying down their arms will mean safety for the people of Gaza is a social media invention which is not born out by the avowed intentions of the Israeli leadership.

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The Nakba narrative is one-sided and distorting and is therefore well suited to delegitimizing Israel. The expulsion of Jews from Arab states and Iran, is probably virtually non-existent in your consciousness, even though at least as many Jews left these states. But constant blame is not a solution, as it is backward-looking, does not solve problems. At what stage of the problem does your solution work?

Benaiah468 said:

The change came quietly, but with great effect: the IPC Hunger Index, the internationally recognized tool for measuring famine, has adjusted its criteria so that Gaza is now considered “affected by hunger”, even though previous standards would not have allowed this. The result: a global narrative that blames Israel.

At the end of Jul, the IPC, the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification, supported by the UN and 29 Western countries, published its new report. It states that Gaza is experiencing “widespread, extremely severe hunger.” This term, known in technical jargon as “famine,” is the strongest international classification for famine. Those classified as such are considered victims of an acute, life-threatening disaster.

The message of this report quickly became clear in international headlines: Israel is responsible for a hunger crisis in Gaza. Within hours, major media outlets around the world picked up on the wording – and thus conveyed an image to the public that carries heavy political and moral weight.

But now the US newspaper The Washington Free Beacon has revealed that the IPC changed the rules shortly before publication, without any public debate. The key change: previously, a famine was only declared when at least 30% of children in an area were suffering from severe malnutrition. This threshold has been lowered to 15%, in other words, halved.

At the same time, the measurement method was changed: instead of recording the weight of children, as was previously standard practice, the circumference of the upper arm is now sufficient. This may sound like a technical detail, but it is a significant change that leads to completely different results.

In Gaza City itself, the proportion of severely malnourished children is 16.5% according to the new IPC report. Under the old rules, this would not have been enough to qualify as “famine.” Under the new rules, however, it certainly does. Without this change, there would have been no international declaration of famine in Gaza and thus no global wave of headlines incriminating Israel.

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This appears to be a half-truth, from their response regarding the measurement method and the threshold. Your text seems to be tendentious.

MUAC is widely used in emergency contexts, as it is the most frequently available measurement and is strongly correlated with mortality outcomes. For this reason, MUAC has been applied in previous IPC famine classifications, including the South Sudan IPC report (November 2020) and the Sudan IPC report (December 2024). The same protocols have been consistently applied in all IPC analyses for Gaza.

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https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/u...C_Famine_Classification_in_the_Gaza_Strip.pdf

If using the weight-to-height measurement it is still 30% to call it a famine. With the upper arm measure the threshold is 15% (and that as it has been previously, MUAC has previously been shown to underpredict hence the lower threshold). It is not a newly deviced measurement either. See the quote.

Benaiah468 said:

The Nakba narrative is one-sided and distorting and is therefore well suited to delegitimizing Israel.

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Not to mention its unproven. It cannot be proven it happened and cannot be proven it didn't.

It appears we have no real evidence from either side on this that is proof positive on if it happened or not.

I'm more inclined to think it didn't based upon the false narratives perpetuated by the Arabs over the years.

Vanellus said:

There is another misconception here: that I am seeking to defend the terrorist group Hamas.

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If it quacks and walks like a duck is most likely a duck.

Vanellus said:

But why are you defending the terrorist IDF and its political masters, the terrorist government of Israel.

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The IDF is not a terrorist designated group like Hamas.

Vanellus said:

The government of Israel is using its military forces to terrorise the people of Gaza and force their mass expulsion - and treating them like cockroaches.

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The Government of Israel is using its military forces to remove fully the terrorist group Hamas from ever terrorizing the Gazans and Israel ever again. The cockroaches are the terrorist group Hamas who use the extensive tunnel system build for them to hide not to protect Gazans.

Vanellus said:

They force them to flee from one place to another only to blow up the so called new safe place.

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Let me remind you who the aggressor has been since their takeover of Gaza in 2007. The terrorist group Hamas has been attacking Israel in one way or another ever since. Gazans have been dying because of the actions of Hamas even since. The root cause of this regional war is the terrorist designated group Hamas.

Vanellus said:

Jews enjoying their coffee in the cafes of Tel Aviv have a very different lifestyle.

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A lifestyle that Gazans could have had if it wasn’t for Hamas.

Hentenza said:

If it quacks and walks like a duck is most likely a duck.

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This strongly implies you are calling me a liar. Are you calling me a liar when I state I do not support Hamas?

Benaiah468 said:

The Nakba narrative is one-sided and distorting and is therefore well suited to delegitimizing Israel. The expulsion of Jews from Arab states and Iran, is probably virtually non-existent in your consciousness, even though at least as many Jews left these states. But constant blame is not a solution, as it is backward-looking, does not solve problems. At what stage of the problem does your solution work?

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It's nonsensical for you to speculate about what is "in my consciousness" - such speculation betrays your prejudice against me as a person. Let's not get embroiled in personal attacks and stick to the facts!

The expulsion of Palestinians was largely violent and took place over a short period of time.

Nakba - Wikipedia

The central facts of what happened in the Nakba during the 1948 Palestine war are well established, documented, and widely agreed upon by most Israeli, Palestinian, and other historians.[61]

About 750,000 Palestinians – over 80% of the population living in the territory of what became the State of Israel – were expelled or fled from their homes and became refugees.[19] Eleven Arab towns and cities, and over 500 villages were destroyed or depopulated.[20] Thousands of Palestinians were killed in dozens of massacres.[62] About a dozen rapes of Palestinians by regular and irregular Israeli military forces have been documented, and more are suspected.[63] Israelis used psychological warfare tactics to frighten Palestinians into flight, including targeted violence, whispering campaigns, radio broadcasts, and loudspeaker vans.[64] Looting by Israeli soldiers and civilians of Palestinian homes, business, farms, artwork, books, and archives was widespread.

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Jewish exodus from the Muslim world - Wikipedia

Large-scale migrations were also organized, sponsored, and facilitated by Zionist organizations such as Mossad LeAliyah Bet, the Jewish Agency, and the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society. The mass movement mainly transpired from 1948 to the early 1970s ... Between 1948 and 1951, 250,000 Jews immigrated to Israel from Arab countries. In response, the Israeli government implemented policies to accommodate 600,000 immigrants over four years, doubling the country's Jewish population.[6] Reactions in the Knesset were mixed; in addition to some Israeli officials, there were those within the Jewish Agency who opposed promoting a large-scale emigration movement among Jews whose lives were not in immediate danger.[6] ...As in Tunisia and Algeria, Moroccan Jews did not face large scale expulsion or outright asset confiscation or any similar government persecution during the period of exile, and Zionist agents were relatively allowed freedom of action to encourage emigration.

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Whereas the expulsion and forced exodus of Palestinians into refugees was rapid and characterised by violence, the migration of Jews from Arab lands to Israel took place over a much longer period of time and was a mixture of voluntary (encouraged by Israel) migration and violent expulsion - but it was by no means entirely violent or comparable to the Nakba. And as another poster has stated on this thread it is considered important to determine who the aggressor is. The Nakba occurred first so Israel was the aggressor in this comparison.

As you can see Benaiah468 I have made no personal attack against you in this post except to call out your personal attack against me.
Hopefully you will avoid personal attacks in future.

As to the solution. All Israel needs to do is to stop the counterproductive violence and abide by the relevant UN resolutions.

Vanellus said:

It's nonsensical for you to speculate about what is "in my consciousness" - such speculation betrays your prejudice against me as a person. Let's not get embroiled in personal attacks and stick to the facts!

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Omitting key facts creates a false impression. You would certainly agree with this statement. Then please also states these facts (the jewish Nakba) if you take issue with my answer, that I have ignored almost everything that has happened in the last 100 years, including the Nakba.

While a separate UN organisation was established exclusively for "Palestinian" refugees, which is historically and globally unique in its kind, the more than 700,000 Jews expelled from the region since 1948 did not elicit any international interest or even aid efforts.

The expulsion of the Jews was marked by violence and displacement.

The Arab countries, which never accepted the UN declaration on the establishment of a Jewish state, compelled the Jews living in their territories to leave their homes while leaving their assets behind. Jews had lived in the Arab lands for thousands of years, and many of their communities preceded the advent of Islam. In several instances the deportations were accompanied by pogroms and violence against Jews.

The narratives of the departure of the Jews from Arab lands differ in detail by country, and from one family to another, but in the substance the stories are similar.

While more than a fifth of Israel's population today is Arab, there are hardly any Jews left in the Arab countries and Iran.

In stark contrast to the seemingly omnipresent narrative of the "Palestinian Nakba", the expulsion and eradication of Jewish communities in the Islamic countries of the region are just ignored.

Vanellus said:

As to the solution. All Israel needs to do is to stop the counterproductive violence and abide by the relevant UN resolutions.

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Here too.

What about the violence perpetrated by Hamas? Should Hamas relinquish power in the Gaza Strip and, with international support and cooperation, hand over its weapons to the PLO in line with the goal of a sovereign and independent State of "Palestine", as well as release its hostages, as demanded by the UN? Does this matter?

Political pressure on Israel is mounting. Following the UK, Canada and Australia, Portugal has now also officially declared its recognition of a Palestinian state. According to diplomats, other European countries have announced that they will follow suit. This brings the number of UN members recognising "Palestine" as a state to 145. But behind the diplomatic façade lies a political explosive force that directly affects Israel's security and international standing.

From the perspective of European governments, recognition is not a ‘price for terror’ but part of a political ‘roadmap’ to a two-state solution. Israel, on the other hand, sees it as a clear trivialisation of terror and a dangerous distortion of reality. This is because the wave of diplomatic gestures began just after 7 Oct, the day of the worst massacre of Jews since the Shoah. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu put it unequivocally in a video message: those who recognise "Palestine" now are rewarding terror in an unimaginable way.

Concrete responses are being discussed in Jerusalem. Two steps are on the table: the extension of Israeli sovereignty in certain areas, ranging from administrative reorganisation to a possible declaration on the Jordan Valley, and the closure of foreign consulates, particularly the French one. From Israel's point of view, France is considered the driving force behind the wave of European recognition.

Netanyahu and his closest advisors, including Minister of Strategic Affairs Ron Dermer, emphasise the need for close coordination with the United States. President Donald Trump remains Israel's key partner in countering the diplomatic trend. Netanyahu will meet with Trump this week before announcing Israel's official response.

A Palestinian state born out of the hands of a weak and corrupt autonomous authority, without removing the terrorist organisation Hamas from power and without securing the return of hostages, is not a solution for peace, but an illusion. Those who now express their recognition are ignoring not only Israel's security situation, but also the reality within "Palestine": a political leadership without legitimacy, a divided people and a terrorist regime entrenched in Gaza.

Israel will not allow the price of its security to be dictated from outside.

The Global Sumud Flotilla is struggling with internal disputes, communication breakdowns and organisational problems. Swedish activist Greta Thunberg was quietly removed from the steering committee, a symbol of the growing unrest on board.

The background to the story shows that the flotilla is not a neutral aid convoy, but rather a PR project orchestrated by organisations with close ties to Hamas. Just last week, the Israeli Ministry of Diaspora Affairs published a report detailing the close ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. Names such as Saif Abu Keshk and Yahia Sarri represent a network that systematically exploits Western good faith. Prominent figures such as Thunberg serve primarily as a façade in this construct.

But now the façade is crumbling. According to Italian media reports, Thunberg has been quietly removed from the steering committee. She herself stated that she wanted to remain a ‘participant and organiser’, but not in a leading role. This distancing is no coincidence. It coincides with the withdrawal of official spokesperson Yusuf Omar, who announced that he would no longer be on board, but would only be active from a distance. Officially, it is a ‘strategic communication change’, but in reality, it reveals a dispute over direction: should the flotilla continue to downplay its internal problems or be used aggressively as a stage for anti-Israel propaganda?

This is precisely where the fault line lies. Omar was accused of talking too much about logistical difficulties, fuel shortages, bad weather, disputes within the organising committee. All of this contradicts the desired image of a determined ‘peace flotilla’ that supposedly pursues a humanitarian goal.

However, reality cannot be concealed. Since leaving Barcelona at the end of August, there has been one mishap after another: stormy weather forced the ships back to port on the very first day. In Tunisia, there were days of delays due to fuel problems and bureaucratic hurdles. Participants reported alleged drone attacks, claims that were immediately denied by the local authorities. Many activists lost patience, left the ships and flew home.

All that remained of the grandly announced ‘armada’ was a patchwork quilt: a few scattered boats between Sicily and Crete, while other ships are still off the coast of North Africa. With each passing day, the project loses its impact, symbolism and credibility.

In this context, the Thunberg case is more than just a personal matter. It symbolises the fact that the flotilla is striving more for self-promotion than for real impact. The declared goal of breaking the Israeli naval blockade is unattainable from the outset. This blockade is protected under international law and serves a clear purpose: to prevent arms smuggling to Hamas. Israel has emphasised for years that humanitarian supplies can reach Gaza through regular channels – what is blocked are weapons, explosives and dual-use goods.

But this is precisely where the flotilla's strategic function lies: it seeks to delegitimise Israel by creating the impression that the blockade is directed against the civilian population. This is propaganda, not humanitarian aid.

The fact that the world's most famous climate activist is now disappearing from the command level is a bitter blow for the organisers. Thunberg's name stood for media attention, headlines and worldwide images. Without her, all that remains is an ideologically narrow-minded project that is increasingly being seen through in Europe.

Israel warned months ago that the Global Sumud Flotilla is not an aid convoy, but an extension of Hamas propaganda. The latest internal rifts confirm this analysis impressively.

In the end, one thing remains clear: wherever Hamas is involved, chaos is inevitable. The flotilla, which was staged as a moral front, is now tearing itself apart, a reflection of the destructive ideology that drives it.