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How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

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The Liturgist

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I agree with you that praying to saints can be a big stumbling block, but I’m not sure it can lead to damnation

It does not = particularly since the prayer to the saints is not really a prayer but a request for prayers. It does not deprive Christ of His role as our sole Mediator, since all traditional churches - Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, Anglicans, Lutherans, liturgical Methodists and so on affirm that Christ is the sole Mediator - attempts to declare the Theotokos “co-Mediatrix” are a neo-Collyridian error and have been thus far rejected by the Roman Catholic Church. Collyridianism (worship of the Blessed Virgin Mary) and Antidicomarianism (refusal to venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary or acknowledge her virginity) were both identified by St. Epiphanios of Cyprus as errors of equal magnitude in the late fourth century (the same Epiphanios that some iconoclasts erroneously try to enlist as proof that the early church rejected icons, when rather, it was likely he was removing an Arian depiction of our Lord, for we know from archaeological evidence such as the Arian Baptistry in Ravenna that the Arians in rejecting the deity of Christ would depict him as a beardless youth).

However, repeating the same prayer to the same saint in a ritual over and over again distracts from the saving grace of Christ and give the impression of working one’s way into heaven by saying the rosary plus other rituals.

That’s completely false - I pray the Hail Mary many times a day as did Martin Luther, among others, and it has not distracted from my focus on Christ our God as our only Savior - and as both our advocate and judge in the Eschaton. I know of no Orthodox Christians or Roman Catholics whose love for Christ is compromised by their Marian devotion; if anything, a strong Marian devotion increases love for Christ, because the Theotokos tells us in the Gospel according to John, of her son, “to do as he says.” Thus I do that by celebrating the Eucharist and pursuing prayer without ceasing, particularly the Jesus Prayer but also the Hail Mary, and the Divine Office. Nothing our Lord commanded precludes requesting other Christians, whether of the Church Militant or the Church Triumphant, for their prayers. In the Orthodox Church, we have certain knowledge of the presence of members of the Church Triumphant in our spiritual lives, because of their tendency to appear and do things for the benefit of the faithful, for example, the recent baptisms performed in Romania by St. Nektarios of Pentapolis.
 
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The Liturgist

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You misunderstand me, I'm saying if you pray to anyone other than God and since Jesus IS God and our mediator, then we can pray to him but thats it. Mary and anyone else false out of that category. I Hope that clears up the confusion :heart:

Well insofar as I ask the saints for their prayers but do not worship them and depend on Christ as my sole mediator, and direct my worship only to God the unoriginate Father, our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, begotten of the Father before all ages, and God the Holy Spirit, our Comforter and Paraclete, who eternally proceeds from the Father (and is the person of the Holy Trinity we primarily interact with in this life, along with the angels), I have benefitted greatly from God’s grace.

I would also note if seeking prayers from the saints is damnatory, then nearly all Christians of the first millenium, and all Christians from the start of the second millenium until some time between the 13th and 16th century, depending on whether or not the Waldensians were Christians before converting to Calvinism (I suspect they were, but we don’t know that much about them; but we do know they did not find Calvinism disagreeable so it is likely their views were along those lines) and the views of some of the Moravian movements outside of the mainstream movement founded by St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague, which sought to re-establish Slavonic liturgy and communion in both kinds in Moravia and in Prague, things with the Czechs and Slovaks had until the conquest of most of their land by the Austrians in the 13th century, when they were forcibly converted from Orthodoxy to Catholicism - thus the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia venerates them as martyrs, as do I.

Your views also would condemn a large number of members of the largest Protestant denomination, the Anglicans, as well as most of the persecuted Christians of the Middle East - the Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox, Alexandrian Greek Orthodox, and Jerusalem Greek Orthodox, and their Roman Catholic counterparts, many of whom, such as the Armenians and Ethiopians, have experienced martyrdom both from Muslims and Communists.

But we know that they are not condemned, because we are talking about Christians who worshipped Jesus Christ and were killed for their belief in Him, most recently, 93 Antiochian Orthodox men, women and children received the crown of martyrdom two months ago when a terrorist entered into a church in Damascus with an automatic weapon, and also threw a grenade at the iconostasis*, and many others have become Confessors (those tortured or injured for Christ). We know martyrs and confessors are saved because Christ declared “He who confesses me before men, i will confess before the Father” - and for this reason the early church placed a high value on the martyrs and their contribution to the church.

Indeed so many martyrs were killed during the reign of Emperor Diocletian, that it was decreed that all altars of all new churches would be built atop or contain the relics of martyrs (the use of the graves of martyrs as tables for celebrating the Eucharist is much older, and was the basis for the location of various ancient churches, which were built atop wherever martyrs were buried; it is also the reason why some of the ancient churches, such as the Armenians, Assyrians and Romans and some Syriac Orthodox have altars which have the proportions of a human body, which also remains the dominant configuration for altars in Western churches, even those who do not place relics in their altars, such as Anglicans.


*This shows the danger of false accusations of idolatry against the Orthodox - Muslim fundamentalists have routinely killed the Orthodox for idolatry and also desecrated our churches, but we know from archaeological evidence at Dura Europos and the Roman catacombs that the 2nd century chruch had icons, as did the Jews of that period, for at Dura Europos there was a house church and a synagogue, both of which were destroyed by ISIS along with the ruins in Palmyra.
 
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Jerry N.

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It does not = particularly since the prayer to the saints is not really a prayer but a request for prayers. It does not deprive Christ of His role as our sole Mediator, since all traditional churches - Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, Anglicans, Lutherans, liturgical Methodists and so on affirm that Christ is the sole Mediator - attempts to declare the Theotokos “co-Mediatrix” are a neo-Collyridian error and have been thus far rejected by the Roman Catholic Church. Collyridianism (worship of the Blessed Virgin Mary) and Antidicomarianism (refusal to venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary or acknowledge her virginity) were both identified by St. Epiphanios of Cyprus as errors of equal magnitude in the late fourth century (the same Epiphanios that some iconoclasts erroneously try to enlist as proof that the early church rejected icons, when rather, it was likely he was removing an Arian depiction of our Lord, for we know from archaeological evidence such as the Arian Baptistry in Ravenna that the Arians in rejecting the deity of Christ would depict him as a beardless youth).



That’s completely false - I pray the Hail Mary many times a day as did Martin Luther, among others, and it has not distracted from my focus on Christ our God as our only Savior - and as both our advocate and judge in the Eschaton. I know of no Orthodox Christians or Roman Catholics whose love for Christ is compromised by their Marian devotion; if anything, a strong Marian devotion increases love for Christ, because the Theotokos tells us in the Gospel according to John, of her son, “to do as he says.” Thus I do that by celebrating the Eucharist and pursuing prayer without ceasing, particularly the Jesus Prayer but also the Hail Mary, and the Divine Office. Nothing our Lord commanded precludes requesting other Christians, whether of the Church Militant or the Church Triumphant, for their prayers. In the Orthodox Church, we have certain knowledge of the presence of members of the Church Triumphant in our spiritual lives, because of their tendency to appear and do things for the benefit of the faithful, for example, the recent baptisms performed in Romania by St. Nektarios of Pentapolis.

There are many Catholics that are not as knowledgeable as you, and they treat many Catholic rituals in the same way as pagans treat theirs. It is a superstitious ritual that pleases the gods. That is what I am referring to primarily. If you believe that Mary can pray for you and hear the prayers of millions of people in the world, have at it, but it is Christ who has mercy on your soul. Personally, I think Mary is sleeping in the grave waiting for the resurrection, but that is just me. I was trying to show that there is a big difference between orthodox Catholic doctrine and the superstitious Catholic. I don’t agree with much of the Roman doctrine, but I’m not in any way ready to condemn.
 
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Delvianna

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Well insofar as I ask the saints for their prayers but do not worship them
I addressed how the definition of prayer = worship. So you can say you aren't, but actually you are if you pray to them.
Your views also would condemn a large number of members
Yes, I agree it does because;
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." - Matthew 7:13-14

Remember, Jesus said:
"Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:22-24

What is lawlessness? It's literally sin. So just because someone claims to follow Christ and does a bunch of stuff in his name, does not mean they are Christs. Your argument isn't biblically backed.
 
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jas3

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I addressed how the definition of prayer = worship.
You made vague reference to a secondary definition in an unnamed lexicon. Presumably you mean Strong's, but it's not even a definition there, it's commentary on a definition. Not much of an argument.

And the idea that for at least a solid millennium nobody was saved because they were "idolaters" for asking the saints' intercession is just ridiculous, and frankly unbiblical, given the repeated assurances in the New Testament that the Church will not fall away from the true faith.
 
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Delvianna

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You made vague reference to a secondary definition in an unnamed lexicon. Presumably you mean Strong's, but it's not even a definition there, it's commentary on a definition. Not much of an argument.

And the idea that for at least a solid millennium nobody was saved because they were "idolaters" for asking the saints' intercession is just ridiculous, and frankly unbiblical, given the repeated assurances in the New Testament that the Church will not fall away from the true faith.
I guess you decided to not decide to look at strongs?
Screenshot_20250912-181645_NKJV.jpg

You also then make a statement with zero biblical backing. Just because you say so, doesnt make it true. I've backed up my stance with bible references, while you just made an opinion without proof.

If you dont think people fall away from faith, I suggest you re-read John 15 about Jesus being the true vine and staying with him or you will whither, die and be thrown into fire. Again, I at least give biblical references while you have only stated an opinion.
 
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The Liturgist

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What is lawlessness? It's literally sin. So just because someone claims to follow Christ and does a bunch of stuff in his name, does not mean they are Christs. Your argument isn't biblically backed.

It is, because all martyrs for Christ are guaranteed to be saved according to Scripture, and Scripture does not preclude veneration, and furthermore, your argument, which supposes a Great Apostasy, contradicts Matthew 16:18, which promises that the Gates of Hell cannot prevail against the church.

. So you can say you aren't, but actually you are if you pray to them.

Who are you to say whether I am offering worship or not? i have never performed latria to the Theotokos or any creature, and I resent the accusation. “Judge not, lest ye not be judged.”
 
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The Liturgist

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There are many Catholics that are not as knowledgeable as you, and they treat many Catholic rituals in the same way as pagans treat theirs. It is a superstitious ritual that pleases the gods.

And you know this how? Have you met any of these supposed Catholics?

Also by Catholic, do you mean Roman Catholic or are you referring to the entire Church Catholic referred to in the Nicene Creed?

That is what I am referring to primarily. If you believe that Mary can pray for you and hear the prayers of millions of people in the world, have at it,

As I’ve made clear, we ask the Theotokos and other saints for their intercession. And a major aspect of salvation is Theosis - becoming by grace what Christ is by nature - eternal, blessed with miraculous abilities, and indeed some of these miraculous abilities appear in this life, as demonstrated, for example, by the bilocation of St. John Maximovitch. Roman Catholics report similar experiences with their saints - in the process of ecumenical reunion our churches will no doubt form a combined martyrology or synaxarion to use the Eastern term of those saints of each church acceptable to be venerated by the other (some Orthodox saints are venerated by Roman Catholics even now, for example, St. Gregory Palamas, who is venerated in the Byzantine Rite churches such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church).

but it is Christ who has mercy on your soul.

Absolutely no one disputes that Christ alone is capable of saving us - indeed the Blessed Virgin Mary was saved by Him, a fact demonstrated by the miraculous assumption of her body after her repose. The idea that anyone else saves us is antithetical to Christianity, since we worship Christ our Lord, God and Savior, who became incarnate and sacrificed Himself on the Cross in order to remake man in His image, so that we might become sons of the Father by adoption, achieving a state higher than that of Adam before the fall.

And the idea that Christians can save themselves is Pelagianism, which is rejected by all ancient churches (interestingly, how Pelagianism is rejected varies between the Orthodox and Catholics - historically the early church relied mainly on the anti-Pelagian arguments not of St. Augustine, who was venerated rather for his morality and for works like The City of God, but by another Latin monastic, St. John Cassian. However in the Middle Ages, St. Augustine came to dominate Patristics in the West, at the expense of most other Patristic figures, probably because of the volume of his work and the fact it was available in Latin, and a shortage of books, and as a result the Roman model of anti-Pelagian hamartiology is one based on St. Augustine. This results in the perceived need for the Immaculate Conception, a dogma we Orthodox Christians reject.


. I was trying to show that there is a big difference between orthodox Catholic doctrine and the superstitious Catholic. I don’t agree with much of the Roman doctrine, but I’m not in any way ready to condemn.

I appreciate your respect for right-believing Catholics, but I think your concerns about crypto-Paganism in the Catholic church are, while not unfounded, the less severe problem; a more severe problem is that of liberal “Cafeteria Catholics” who reject Roman Catholic moral teachings on homosexuality and other important points, and who have become extremely powerful. Everything you hear about the “Synod on Synodality” and the ‘Synodal Way Forward” is an attempt by liberal German bishops to try to secure autonomy from the Church in Rome so that they can change their position on homosexuality.

However, this is not a reason to regard the Roman church as evil, which is what this thread is about. In the face of such threats, and also the unwarranted mistreatment of traditional Catholics by some liberal bishops, and the continued absurd abusive criticism of the Roman Catholic church by non-Catholics despite repeated pleas by myself and others that it cease, I stand in solidarity with my traditional Roman Catholic friends such as @boughtwithaprice @chevyontheriver @Michie and @Xeno.of.athens.

I would also note I have never criticized Messianic Judaism and insofar as it has led to some of the Jews who did not convert early on to convert, while retaining their traditional prayers, I am interested in it, and I am interested in Messianic liturgy, since Jewish liturgy is a major area of interest to me (it is extremely fascinating to study the thrice daily prayers of Judaism, which developed into the three daily prayers of the Divine Office, Vespers at dusk, Compline at night and Matins at dawn, the change in time being required to avoid observation by potential Roman persecutors. Later the Divine Office of most churches developed to add additional offices, which for a time were prayed at the intended time but are now grouped together to form longer services, however, in the case of the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, due to the genocide waged against them by the 12th century Muslim warlord Tamerlane, which turned them from what was the world’s largest church, geographically, into one of the smallest, leaving intact only the suroye (Assyrians) in the Fertile Crescent and the Mar Thoma Christians, who are partially of Jewish descent, being related to the Kochin Jews, of Kerala, India, the monastic use of their liturgy was lost and all that survives are the three ancient offices. Additionally their liturgy preserves an unusually large number of Jewish influences - the Divine Liturgy of Addai and Mari, their primary Holy Communion service, has the seven-fold structure of a Jewish table blessing, their lectionary typically has four lessons per service, two Old Testament lessons, which are a Torah and Haftarah pairing that matches the Jewish pairings, albeit in a sometimes altered sequence, since these related lessons are read as prophecies in support of the Epistle and Gospel, as in other liturgical rites. And their churches historically had a Bema connected to the Altar via a walkway, with the Gospel and other scriptures being read at the Bema, and some recent East Syriac churches have resumed this pattern (we also see the use of a Bema in other Eastern Christian liturgical spaces albeit in a different configuration - the main difference in architecture between an Eastern church and a synagogue is the replacement of the Torah Ark with the altar on which the Holy Eucharist is offered.
 
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Delvianna

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which supposes a Great Apostasy, contradicts Matthew 16:18, which promises that the Gates of Hell cannot prevail against the church.
That's in a general sense not a person by person basis. If it was a person by person basis, you wouldn't have teachings like John 15. It just means, God doesn't lose.

Who are you to say whether I am offering worship or not?
By the definition I gave, you are.

“Judge not, lest ye not be judged.”
You take that verse out of context. I'm saying your practice will lead you to hell. That's judging your actions which your quoted verse doesn't apply to since we are called to rebuke and pull people back to righteousness.

Proverbs 31:9 (NIV): "Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy."
Proverbs 27:5-6 (NIV): "Better is open rebuke than hidden love. Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses."
James 5:19-20 (NIV): "My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Once again, you don’t specify. You throw out a slanderous claim based on nothing more than your own judgment
Which practices lead to destruction? Humility? Penance? The Eucharist which is the flesh and blood, soul and divinity of Christ? Obeying the commandment to honor our father and mother and teaching that God does the same?
By holding true to scripture and teaching that by works of the law shall no flesh be justified and holding Jesus as the author and finisher of our Faith? Which one leads to destruction?
Do we discard so great a salvation and go back to obeying laws which do not save and discarding the one who does?

You can disagree with our theology, but if you say we are leading others to destruction, you are no better than the Pharisees who said it is by Beelzebub that Jesus cast out demons. You should have more fear of the Lord, because that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, counting something holy as an unclean thing

The Church had the scriptures and the keeping of the Jewish Sabbath was not preached for over 1800 years. We remember Our Lord and savior once per week and keep the New Covenant. The Old was a shadow. Behold all things become new

But now we have to believe because some lady says she has new revelation and the Church was wrong for 1800 years we have to change? That does not make sense.
Many will come in my name saying I am Christ and will deceive many. Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. God would not allow His Church to be deceived for 1800 years only to be corrected by those that once followed a false prophecy. It just doesn’t happen
When we research Apostolic teaching from the first and second century, there is no mention of your interpretation of scripture, and actually their is a refutation of your words
Christ sent the apostles, not false prophets to teach us

What is your justification for the change in the 19th century?
The change happened after Scripture just as we were warned Acts 20:29. You keep pointing to what man says, but we need to go back to the Bible what does God say. The popular choices of man is of no consequence to God. He destroyed the entire earth but 8 people before. God does not judge us based on what other people are doing. He never told us to take the popular path that the majority take.

The Bible warned of a falling away. It was the same theme over and over again in Scripture. You keep using your reasoning over a thus saith the Lord. The Sabbath is a commandment of God, no different than the commandment to not worship others gods, or steal from our neighbor. All came from the same unit Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 written by the finger of God, His holy and righteous Testimony Exo 31:18 never called the Ten suggestions or pluck out or edit the ones we don’t agree with. God could not have made His will any clearer Psa 40:8 , spoken by God, written by God.

Sadly most choose to follow your church traditions over keeping one of the commandments of God. Something Jesus warned us about Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-12
 
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jas3

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I guess you decided to not decide to look at strongs?
I guess you don't know what i.e. means?
I've backed up my stance with bible references, while you just made an opinion without proof.
I'm not sure why you think the Christian position - and to be clear, the only Nicene, i.e. Christian, position on this is that there is One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, "Holy" being the key word here - needs me to give you the biblical citations when they're well known, but here: Matt. 16:18, Matt. 28:20, John 16:13, and 1 Tim. 3:15, among others.
If you dont think people fall away from faith
That's not what I said. I said that not all people fell away from the faith for hundreds of years. There has never been a time where following the Church, i.e. being a Christian, would lead someone to damnation, and whichever stream of Christianity you think of as "the Church," there was no church in the 4th or 6th or 8th or 10th century that taught against the intercession of saints.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You can disagree with our theology, but if you say we are leading others to destruction, you are no better than the Pharisees who said it is by Beelzebub that Jesus cast out demons. You should have more fear of the Lord, because that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, counting something holy as an unclean thing
A bit Ironic?

Eze 22:26 Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

Isa 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Eze 20: 20 hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God.’

Ecc 12:13
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God and keep His commandments, (His version Exo 20:6, not mans)
For this is man’s all.
 
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Delvianna

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I guess you don't know what i.e. means?
"That is" is the literal translation. So again, definition still stands.

I'm not sure why you think the Christian position - and to be clear, the only Nicene, i.e. Christian, position on this is that there is One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, "Holy" being the key word here - needs me to give you the biblical citations when they're well known, but here: Matt. 16:18, Matt. 28:20, John 16:13, and 1 Tim. 3:15, among others.
Okay, so you quoted me bible verses but still doesn't address your argument. Nothing in those verses advocate for praying to other people when I already addressed the verses against this idea.
 
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jas3

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"That is" is the literal translation.
Right, so it's an aside, not the definition itself.
So again, definition still stands.
So again, at best, for your case, you agree with a Protestant's aside in a Protestant lexicon. It may surprise you to learn that people who aren't Protestants don't put much stock in what James Strong thought was equivalent to the word "pray."
Okay, so you quoted me bible verses but still doesn't address your argument. Nothing in those verses advocate for praying to other people when I already addressed the verses against this idea.
Actually, none of the verses you quoted say prayer is worship and none of them say prayer is only to be directed to God. All you've given in support of that is your own assumption that a positive instruction to pray to the Father is the same as a negative instruction against praying to anyone else. This may seem obvious to you, but it's actually not a good assumption because if we applied the same standard in other places we would end up with absurd conclusions like banning public prayer based on Matt. 6:6.

Also, you still haven't responded to the main biblical problem I've pointed out with your argument, which is that it would violate the guarantees we're given in the New Testament about the indefectibility of the Church. That's a serious problem, because you were right, it would invalidate Christianity.
 
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And you know this how? Have you met any of these supposed Catholics?

Also by Catholic, do you mean Roman Catholic or are you referring to the entire Church Catholic referred to in the Nicene Creed?
I have had many family members like that. I do not know much about Orthodox Catholics, but I am surrounded by Roman Catholics.
 
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Jerry N.

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I appreciate your respect for right-believing Catholics, but I think your concerns about crypto-Paganism in the Catholic church are, while not unfounded, the less severe problem; a more severe problem is that of liberal “Cafeteria Catholics” who reject Roman Catholic moral teachings on homosexuality and other important points, and who have become extremely powerful. Everything you hear about the “Synod on Synodality” and the ‘Synodal Way Forward” is an attempt by liberal German bishops to try to secure autonomy from the Church in Rome so that they can change their position on homosexuality.
You are probably correct that “Cafeteria Catholics” are a bigger problem. Where I live is very conservative, and the crypto-Paganism seems a bigger problem.
 
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Jerry N.

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I would also note I have never criticized Messianic Judaism and insofar as it has led to some of the Jews who did not convert early on to convert, while retaining their traditional prayers,
I appreciate your interest, but the subprogram that this forum uses for profiles does not distinguish between Messianic Christian and Messianic Jew. I am a Messianic Christian and have written about it on other threads. I'm sorry for the confusion. I just double checked my profile and I did write "Messianic Christian," but clicking on my avatar will only show "Messianic."
 
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FireDragon76

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And you know this how? Have you met any of these supposed Catholics?

Also by Catholic, do you mean Roman Catholic or are you referring to the entire Church Catholic referred to in the Nicene Creed?



As I’ve made clear, we ask the Theotokos and other saints for their intercession. And a major aspect of salvation is Theosis - becoming by grace what Christ is by nature - eternal, blessed with miraculous abilities, and indeed some of these miraculous abilities appear in this life, as demonstrated, for example, by the bilocation of St. John Maximovitch. Roman Catholics report similar experiences with their saints - in the process of ecumenical reunion our churches will no doubt form a combined martyrology or synaxarion to use the Eastern term of those saints of each church acceptable to be venerated by the other (some Orthodox saints are venerated by Roman Catholics even now, for example, St. Gregory Palamas, who is venerated in the Byzantine Rite churches such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church).



Absolutely no one disputes that Christ alone is capable of saving us - indeed the Blessed Virgin Mary was saved by Him, a fact demonstrated by the miraculous assumption of her body after her repose. The idea that anyone else saves us is antithetical to Christianity, since we worship Christ our Lord, God and Savior, who became incarnate and sacrificed Himself on the Cross in order to remake man in His image, so that we might become sons of the Father by adoption, achieving a state higher than that of Adam before the fall.

And the idea that Christians can save themselves is Pelagianism, which is rejected by all ancient churches (interestingly, how Pelagianism is rejected varies between the Orthodox and Catholics - historically the early church relied mainly on the anti-Pelagian arguments not of St. Augustine, who was venerated rather for his morality and for works like The City of God, but by another Latin monastic, St. John Cassian. However in the Middle Ages, St. Augustine came to dominate Patristics in the West, at the expense of most other Patristic figures, probably because of the volume of his work and the fact it was available in Latin, and a shortage of books, and as a result the Roman model of anti-Pelagian hamartiology is one based on St. Augustine. This results in the perceived need for the Immaculate Conception, a dogma we Orthodox Christians reject.




I appreciate your respect for right-believing Catholics, but I think your concerns about crypto-Paganism in the Catholic church are, while not unfounded, the less severe problem; a more severe problem is that of liberal “Cafeteria Catholics” who reject Roman Catholic moral teachings on homosexuality and other important points, and who have become extremely powerful. Everything you hear about the “Synod on Synodality” and the ‘Synodal Way Forward” is an attempt by liberal German bishops to try to secure autonomy from the Church in Rome so that they can change their position on homosexuality.

However, this is not a reason to regard the Roman church as evil, which is what this thread is about. In the face of such threats, and also the unwarranted mistreatment of traditional Catholics by some liberal bishops, and the continued absurd abusive criticism of the Roman Catholic church by non-Catholics despite repeated pleas by myself and others that it cease, I stand in solidarity with my traditional Roman Catholic friends such as @boughtwithaprice @chevyontheriver @Michie and @Xeno.of.athens.

I would also note I have never criticized Messianic Judaism and insofar as it has led to some of the Jews who did not convert early on to convert, while retaining their traditional prayers, I am interested in it, and I am interested in Messianic liturgy, since Jewish liturgy is a major area of interest to me (it is extremely fascinating to study the thrice daily prayers of Judaism, which developed into the three daily prayers of the Divine Office, Vespers at dusk, Compline at night and Matins at dawn, the change in time being required to avoid observation by potential Roman persecutors. Later the Divine Office of most churches developed to add additional offices, which for a time were prayed at the intended time but are now grouped together to form longer services, however, in the case of the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, due to the genocide waged against them by the 12th century Muslim warlord Tamerlane, which turned them from what was the world’s largest church, geographically, into one of the smallest, leaving intact only the suroye (Assyrians) in the Fertile Crescent and the Mar Thoma Christians, who are partially of Jewish descent, being related to the Kochin Jews, of Kerala, India, the monastic use of their liturgy was lost and all that survives are the three ancient offices. Additionally their liturgy preserves an unusually large number of Jewish influences - the Divine Liturgy of Addai and Mari, their primary Holy Communion service, has the seven-fold structure of a Jewish table blessing, their lectionary typically has four lessons per service, two Old Testament lessons, which are a Torah and Haftarah pairing that matches the Jewish pairings, albeit in a sometimes altered sequence, since these related lessons are read as prophecies in support of the Epistle and Gospel, as in other liturgical rites. And their churches historically had a Bema connected to the Altar via a walkway, with the Gospel and other scriptures being read at the Bema, and some recent East Syriac churches have resumed this pattern (we also see the use of a Bema in other Eastern Christian liturgical spaces albeit in a different configuration - the main difference in architecture between an Eastern church and a synagogue is the replacement of the Torah Ark with the altar on which the Holy Eucharist is offered.

German Catholic bishops are not "Cafeteria Catholics". They are applying Catholic ethics, sensitive to their pastoral context.
 
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JSRG

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Okay, I'm just going to give one at the moment or this message is going to be too long. Let's take the idea of praying to others. This can be Mary or to people who you classify as "saints". Let's first start with the idea of prayer. Jesus says,

Matthew 6:5 says - " But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

There is no verse that tells you to pray to anyone else. This is why Jesus gave us an example through the Lords prayer. But the word for pray, is proseuchomai which holds the definition of "supplicate" or "worship". Supplicate means to beg or ask something earnestly or humbly but I want to focus on the fact that it specifically says "worship". So not only did Jesus tell us to pray to the Father and that there is no other verse that tells you to pray to anyone else, and since the definition is worship, that brings me to...

"And Jesus answered and said to him, “Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” - Luke 4:8

"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; " - Philippians 4:6

So praying to literally anything or anyone else is actually in violation of the 1st commandment because we are not supposed to worship anything else but God and only have 1. Regardless if you want to argue that praying to other people aren't "gods", its still an idol. An Idol is literally anything that you give worship to. So, still in the act of sin and because Catholics do this practice on the regular, this is just one aspect that is driving a giant wedge between you and your relationship with God, when he isn't the only one you worship.

Even if we were to accept the argument that the Greek word proseuchomai (προσεύχομαι) can only be used to refer to worship, last I checked we were not using a Greek word, but an English word, namely to pray. I have never seen anyone in English declare "I proseuchomai to saints". They instead would say "I pray to saints" because, again, that's the English word. It should go without saying, but a language can have a word that has an exclusive meaning whereas another language has their version of the word have multiple meanings. For example, in Spanish, the verb jugar means to play in the sense of playing a game. So the corresponding verb in English its to play. However, English has a meaning for "play" that Spanish does not for "jugar", which is to play an instrument. For that meaning in Spanish, you instead use the verb tocar, which also means to touch. Which shows it on the other end, because "touch" in English does not have the meaning of "play an instrument" as it has in Spanish. Thus, even if your assertions are correct--that the Greek word proseuchomai must entail an element of worship--that doesn't mean it is true for the English word pray.

Now, maybe the Greek Orthodox describe sending prayers to saints as proseuchomai; I don't know. Perhaps anyone who knows modern Greek can answer that question. And if they do, then there can be a discussion about the proper usage of the word. But the meaning of proseuchomai in Greek is of little to no importance in the meaning pray in English. The English word pray does not even derive from that Greek word, it instead comes from the Latin verb precari/precor, which means to request. And just like in the Latin, the English word "pray" has a long history of meaning request and being used towards people other than God. One can even see this in the Protestant Bible translations! In Acts 27:34 (KJV), when Paul tells the Roman soldiers "I pray you to take some meat", is he worshiping the soldiers? No, he's requesting they take meat. This is because the word pray means request. Phrases like "I pray you" (making a request) are found repeatedly in older works.

It is true that in the modern day, the word pray is generally limited to prayers to God, prayers to saints, or a prayer of relief in a lawsuit (the prayer of relief is you saying what you want to get out of the lawsuit). In all instances, however, it retains the meaning of "request".

So whatever a Greek word meant doesn't matter here in regards to the meaning of the English phrase of praying to saints. And in English, the word pray means request, and can and frequently has been used to refer to requests made of people other than God; even Protestants who rejected prayers to saints still used the word pray in relation to making requests of people. And even with its more limited usage in the present day, it persists in meaning request, even outside of Catholics or Orthodox. If the usage of pray in English requires worship, does this mean anyone who issues a lawsuit is engaging in idolatry when they issue the prayer for relief to the judge?

Interestingly, a Catholic apologist in a video said that the phrase "pray to saints" is more of a shorthand phrase, and what more formal sources like the Catechism of the Catholic Church use is to refer to invoking the intercession of saints. He goes into that here (the below is a transcript of the relevant part of his video taken from the link), and also observes some of the things noted above. The context of the below remarks is that he's listing phrases he thinks Catholics should stop using in dialogue with Protestants, and lists "pray to the saints" as the third:

All right, number three, pray to the saints. This is a hard one, because I say this a lot too, why do Catholics pray to the saints? Well, we pray to the saints because we seek their intercession. A holy person, their prayers are more powerful than other people. James, Chapter 5 says this. You go to the Book of Job, God tells Job’s friends who are all saying false things about God, “Have Job pray for you, because I will listen to him.” I think that’s in… I want to say it’s like in Job 42.

The phrase that I say often, you probably say it often, but it gets really hard when we’re dialoguing with our Protestant friends and you hear the phrase pray to the saints. It sounds like worship the saints, because pray to has… For many people it’s just synonymous with divine worship.

People could say, “I only pray to God. Why would I pray to anyone else?” I think… Well, I’ll talk about an alternative phrase here in a second, but I think when this comes up I think it’s important to ask people, “What does prayer mean?”

When we have a dispute about whether it’s okay to the saints, we need to make sure that we’re talking to each other and not past one another. So I would ask, “Well, what is prayer?” If prayer by definition is talking to God, making a request or talking to God, then Catholics by definition do not pray to the saints, because if prayer is just talking to God, that’s what it is by definition, whatever we do with the saints is not praying to the saints.

Really what prayer is is it’s asking for help, so that’s the older definition of prayer you see in things like old English. You read older English works, you’ll see phrases like, “I pray thee tell me.” Prayer comes from the Latin word precari. It means to make a request or to seek help. Usually in modern language prayer refers to a conversation with a deity, but it doesn’t have to mean that.

My friend, Jimmy Akin, actually has written an article about this, talking about the language that the magisterium uses when it talks about the saints. And the magisterium, the teaching office of the church, does not use the phrase praying to the saints. It uses a different phrase.

So this is what Jimmy writes. “In the sections of the Catechism of the Catholic Church that an English speaking Catholic would turn to for information about praying to the saints, you don’t find that phrase. Instead you find intercession of the saints. However, intercession refers to what they do for us. What language does the church use for what we do with respect to them? It speaks of the invocation of the saints, where the key Latin verb is invocare, to invoke, call upon, appeal to.”

So we invoke or appeal to the saints to intercede or pray for us with God. That’s the language the church actually uses. Praying to the saints is just something we say colloquially in English. Maybe it might be better, and I’m going to try this here on out, I’m going to see how it helps my conversations, but it might be helpful to say instead of we Catholics pray to the saints, we invoke the saints. We call upon the saints. Invoking the intercession of the saints.

I know that’s a little bit of a mouthful, but so is transubstantiation, so is consubstantial. We want to make sure that we get things right, so I like invoking the intercession of the saints. It doesn’t get us tied up into prayer and worship and what those different words mean, because we ask the saints to pray for us.

I think the language of invoking shows that this is a little bit different that just asking your friend to pray for you. We are invoking the saints, we are asking for God’s almighty power to help us be in communion with the other members of… The communion of the saints, with the other members of the body of Christ who have gone before us in glory, who are in heaven, and we ask them to pray for us. We invoke them. We invoke their intercession.

I think invoking the intercession of the saints just might be a better phrase to use than praying to the saints, that we understand that we have a different relationship with Christians who have died and they’re in heaven praying for us than the relationship that we have with God, for example. That might be helpful to have invoking intercession rather than praying to the saints to distinguish that difference, so something to think about.
 
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