How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

[SabbathBlessings]

Deuteronomy is the second relaying of the law, where Moses reminds the people of the Lord's requirements.

The book of the law included all of them. Hence, the anticipated king was to write a copy of it so he would know it, and do all the Lord commanded:

Deu 17:18 “And when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself in a book a copy of this law, approved by the Levitical priests.​

Deu 17:19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read in it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God by keeping all the words of this law and these statutes, and doing them,​

It included the ten commandments (related in Deut 5), and all the others laws. The king was obviously not to disregard the ten, or any of the others.

And the law included the covenant curses and blessings.

Deu 29:20 The LORD will not be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and the curses written in this book will settle upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.​

However, while the curses were against them when they sinned, and even the commands regarding God's law were against them when they sinned, the sacrifices were not, and pointed to Jesus.

What was taken away was the sin. There was nothing left to witness against us. The record of our sin debt is gone.




Sins were still against man. And that is what was taken away.

The laws that pointed to what Jesus would do were in no way against us. They prefigured what He would do in actually taking away sin.




I stipulated that it is not possible for them to take away sins. But they were a shadow that pointed to Christ.

They were not against us. Our sin was against us. And He took it away, disarming sin, death, and the devil.

The Ten Commandments is a separate standalone Covenant - the law of Moses was besides the ark, not inside Deut 31:24-26


Deu 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deu 5:22 "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.


The Ten Commandments of course was given to Moses- because God's commandments are for all people including Moses and the nation of Israel.

But it was a separate covenant than the Ten Commandments

2Ki 21:8 and I will not make the feet of Israel wander anymore from the land which I gave their fathers—only if they are careful to do according to all that I (God)have commanded them, and (in addition) according to all the law that My servant Moses commanded them."

Deu 29:1 These are the words of the covenant which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.

Dan 9:11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him.

There is a Law that defines what sin is 1John3;4 James2:11 Mat 5:19-30 Rom7:7 and a law that was added because of sin, the animal sacrifices in the law of Moses- so they can't be the same law.

 

[tall73]

The language is identical on Col 2:17 Heb 10:1 and what it points to. I guess we can agree to disagree.

We do not disagree that both Col 2:17 and 10:1 refer to shadows that point to Christ.

We have not gotten to 2:17 yet. We were discussing 11-15.

He starts 16 with "therefore" and then turns to the shadows.

 

[tall73]

The Ten Commandments is a separate standalone Covenant - the law of Moses was besides the ark, not inside Deut 31:24-26

Deu 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deu 5:22 "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

The ten commandments were the words of the covenant because they were the commands spoken by God on the mount. Agreed.

But the covenant was the agreement, including the promises of the people and of God in chapter 19. The ten commandments were the words of the covenant, the monument reminding the people of the covenant.

But the covenant applied to all the law. And the ten commandments were again included in the book in Deut. 5.

And Jesus also spoke of the whole law in Matthew 5, when He addressed vows, divorce, etc. right along with the commands against murder and adultery.

And again you have not stated how the animal sacrifices were against us.

Was the Day of Atonement against us?
Was the Passover against us?

They were not. They pointed to Christ.

The law of Moses of course included the Ten Commandments - because God's commandments is for all people including Moses and the nation of Israel.

By that you mean all the commandments, not just the ten? Because Jesus included more than just ten.

But it was a separate covenant than the Ten Commandments

2Ki 21:8 and I will not make the feet of Israel wander anymore from the land which I gave their fathers—only if they are careful to do according to all that I (God)have commanded them, and (in addition) according to all the law that My servant Moses commanded them."

Deu 29:1 These are the words of the covenant which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.

Dan 9:11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him.

Within the ten commandments the Sabbath was also a covenant of its own--a sign with Israel:

Exo 31:13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.​

Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.​

Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.​

Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.​

Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”​

Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.​

​

And the Sabbath sign was in addition to the law, which if a man does he will live:​

​

Eze 20:10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.​

Eze 20:11 I gave them my statutes and made known to them my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live.​

Eze 20:12 Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.​

​

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The ten commandments were the words of the covenant because they were the commands spoken by God on the mount. Agreed.

And no more were added to this Covenant of the Ten Commandment Deut 5:22, its a standalone unit not placed outside the ark like the law of Moses, Deut 31:24-26 but was in the ark of the covenant Exo 40:20

But the covenant applied to all the law. And the ten commandments were again included in the book in Deut. 5.

Of course Moses had the law of the Ten Commandments, but it doesn't change any of the Scriptures I posted on their differences

And Jesus also spoke of the whole law in Matthew 5, when He addressed vows, divorce, etc. right along with the commands against murder and adultery.

Jesus directly quoted two of the Ten Commandments giving examples of what He was referring to and said when breaking them one would be in fear of sin and Judgement. He went on to say furthermore, which means in addition to and showed how far and wide the Ten Commandments reach Psa 119:96 relating sexual morality with the commandment of adultery etc.

And again you have not stated how the animal sacrifices were against us.

I agree, sin is held against us unless we seek the Solution, but animal sacrifices could never take away ones sins, so it was still against man.

Heb 10: 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.

Was the Day of Atonement against us?

Our Day of Atonement hasn't happened yet until Jesus comes, the one in the OT was a shadow pointing to Jesus.

Was the Passover against us?

Never said it was- what I said plainly that Paul was quoting the law from which the context was taken from Deut 31:24-26 , not the Ten Commandments

They were not. They pointed to Christ

Agreed.

By that you mean all the commandments, not just the ten? Because Jesus included more than just ten.

Not in the Ten Commandments hence the number Ten- that God numbered by design. Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28- it is His Testimony Exo 31:18 that I know of no one greater than He.

Within the ten commandments the Sabbath was also a covenant of its own--a sign with Israel:

Exo 31:13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.​

Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.​

Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.​

Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.​

Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”​

Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.​

Israel represents God's people, we can all receive the promises through Abraham and be part of His promises. through faith Gal 3:26-28. Does faith void the law?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

​

And the Sabbath sign was in addition to the law, which if a man does he will live:​

​

Eze 20:10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness.​

Eze 20:11 I gave them my statutes and made known to them my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live.​

Eze 20:12 Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.​

​

It was not in addition, it is part of the Ten Commandments Exo 20:1-17 Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28. The Sabbath started at Creation Exo 20:11 part of God's perfect plan that still exists and continues for the people of God. God's people keep God;s commandments through faith and love, the Sabbath is a commandment of God, God placed the Sabbath in the same unit as not to worship other gods, or murder our neighbor. He used the word Remember on the Sabbath commandment as He had the foresight so many would forget, despite no Scripture saying the Sabbath commandment has been abrogated and kept by Jesus Himself Luke 4:16 John 15:10 who is our example 1 John 2:6 1 Peter 2:21-22

Are we really going to turn this thread into a Sabbath debate?

 

[tall73]

But lets look at this verse closer

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

The Greek word for sabbath here is plural not singular. So its not speaking of "The" Sabbath day "The holy day of the Lord" as already seen in the context.

This is a poor argument, as the plural can be used of a single (weekly) Sabbath day in Greek, as seen here for instance:

Mat 28:1 ᾿Οψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων​

​

Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary​

Col 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων​

​

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.​

Moreover, this occurs in a list of anarthrous (without the article) singular nouns, separated by "or" which is why it is often translated as "a sabbath".

But that in itself doesn't argue one way or the other on what sabbath is meant. Because it refers to "a feast" "a sabbath" and multiple feasts could be meant, and multiple sabbaths.

Paul is quoting Ezekiel all of the sacrifices and offerings.

Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

What was predicted would end when Jesus came?

Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

So this is not about any of the Ten Commandments but about the food and drink offerings, feast days that some were also annual sabbath(s) that were handwritten by Moses placed besides the ark of the covenant that came after the fall of man.

It is a list of the various appointed times, and the sacrifices associated. And contrary to your assertion, the weekly sabbath is definitely included. The specifics are spelled out in the rest of the chapter, and into the next:

Eze 45:17 It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.​

Eze 46:1 “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.​

Eze 46:2 The prince shall enter by the vestibule of the gate from outside, and shall take his stand by the post of the gate. The priests shall offer his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening.​

Eze 46:3 The people of the land shall bow down at the entrance of that gate before the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the new moons.​

Eze 46:4 The burnt offering that the prince offers to the LORD on the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish.​

Eze 46:5 And the grain offering with the ram shall be an ephah, and the grain offering with the lambs shall be as much as he is able, together with a hin of oil to each ephah.​

The reference to six working days refers back to the Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20, and makes clear it is the weekly Sabbath.

Moreover, note the close parallel to Col. 2: burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel:

You have food and drink offerings, which is likely the reference in Col. 2 to in regards to food and drink

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths​

But you also have the purpose of the list spelled out in Ezekiel 45: "all the appointed times of the house of Israel"

The feasts, new moons and sabbaths are the appointed times of Israel.​

Numbers 28-29 also spells those out, and they include the weekly sabbath (with its prescribed sacrifices).

There is every reason to think that Paul is including the weekly sabbath, as an appointed time, in this list.

 

[tall73]

And no more were added to this Covenant of the Ten Commandment Deut 5:22, its a standalone unit not placed outside the ark like the law of Moses, Deut 31:24-26 but was in the ark of the covenant Exo 40:20

Right, no more were added because the people were afraid, and asked God to speak to Moses.

Certainly the ten were in the ark, and the book on the side. But the book contained the ten.

The ten also testified against them, because if they broke them, they were sinning.

But Col .13 refers to forgiving sins, not removing the law.

Of course Moses had the law of the Ten Commandments, but it doesn't change any of the Scriptures I posted on their differences

Nor does it need to. The book contained the ten, and the ten witnessed against them.

But Col. 13-14 is referencing forgiving our sins, taking away our debts, not taking away the law.

Jesus directly quoted two of the Ten Commandments giving examples of what He was referring to and said when breaking them one would be in fear of sin and Judgement. He went on to say furthermore, which means in addition to and showed how far and wide the Ten Commandments reach Psa 119:96 relating sexual morality with the commandment of adultery etc.

Of course. And He quoted from other laws with the same formula, "you have heard". Because it was more than the ten.

 

[tall73]

tall73 said:
Was the Passover against us?

Never said it was- what I said plainly that Paul was quoting the law from which the context was taken from Deut 31:24-26 , not the Ten Commandments

It is your assumption that Colossians 2:14 refers to the book of the law from Deuteronomy.

And you base that partly on the feasts, new moons, sabbaths, etc. of verse 16.

But verse 13 is the immediate context, so immediate, that it is the same sentence! And the context is forgiveness of sins, not removal of the law.

And the elements in verse 16, the feasts, new moons, sabbaths, (including the Passover) were not against us.

The book of the law included all the law, even the ten. If you say it was taken away, that includes the ten.

But it is not talking about that. It is talking about a certificate of debt, our record of sin.

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.​

Are we really going to turn this thread into a Sabbath debate?

You surely don't think I was the first to mention it in the thread do you?

I will leave it where it is at.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is a poor argument, as the plural can be used of a single (weekly) Sabbath day in Greek, as seen here for instance:

View attachment 369910

Mat 28:1 ᾿Οψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων​

​

Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary​

Col 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων​

​

Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.​

“... Or of the Sabbath days - Greek, “of the Sabbaths.” The word Sabbath in the Old Testament is applied not only to the seventh day, but to all the days of holy rest that were observed by the Hebrews, and particularly to the beginning and close of their great festivals. There is, doubtless, reference to those days in this place, since the word is used in the plural number, and the apostle does not refer particularly to the Sabbath properly so called. There is no evidence from this passage that he would teach that there was no obligation to observe any holy time, for there is not the slightest reason to believe that he meant to teach that one of the ten commandments had ceased to be binding on mankind. If he had used the word in the singular number - “the Sabbath,” it would then, of course, have been clear that he meant to teach that that commandment had ceased to be binding, and that a Sabbath was no longer to be observed. But the use of the term in the plural number, and the connection, show that he had his eye on the great number of days which were observed by the Hebrews as festivals, as a part of their ceremonial and typical law, and not to the moral law, or the Ten Commandments. No part of the moral law - no one of the ten commandments could be spoken of as “a shadow of good things to come.” These commandments are, from the nature of moral law, of perpetual and universal obligation. ...” - Albert Barnes, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

Adam Clarke, states on the same passage:

There is no intimation here that the Sabbath was done away, or that its moral use was superseded, by the introduction of Christianity. I have shown elsewhere that, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, is a command of perpetual obligation, and can never be superseded but by the final termination of time. ...” - Adam Clarke, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary states:
“... the sabbath — Omit “THE,” which is not in the Greek (compare Note, see on Gal_4:10). “SABBATHS” (not “the sabbaths”) of the day of atonement and feast of tabernacles have come to an end with the Jewish services to which they belonged (Lev_23:32, Lev_23:37-39). The weekly sabbath rests on a more permanent foundation, having been instituted in Paradise to commemorate the completion of creation in six days. Lev_23:38 expressly distinguished “the sabbath of the Lord” from the other sabbaths. A positive precept is right because it is commanded, and ceases to be obligatory when abrogated; a moral precept is commanded eternally, because it is eternally right. If we could keep a perpetual sabbath, as we shall hereafter, the positive precept of the sabbath, one in each week, would not be needed. Heb_4:9, “rests,” Greek, “keeping of sabbath” (Isa_66:23). But we cannot, since even Adam, in innocence, needed one amidst his earthly employments; therefore the sabbath is still needed and is therefore still linked with the other nine commandments, as obligatory in the spirit, though the letter of the law has been superseded by that higher spirit of love which is the essence of law and Gospel alike (Rom_13:8-10). ...” - Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, Colossians 2:16 Commentary.

Moreover, this occurs in a list of anarthrous (without the article) singular nouns, separated by "or" which is why it is often translated as "a sabbath".

But that in itself doesn't argue one way or the other on what sabbath is meant. Because it refers to "a feast" "a sabbath" and multiple feasts could be meant, and multiple sabbaths.



It is a list of the various appointed times, and the sacrifices associated. And contrary to your assertion, the weekly sabbath is definitely included. The specifics are spelled out in the rest of the chapter, and into the next:

Eze 45:17 It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.​

Eze 46:1 “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.​

Eze 46:2 The prince shall enter by the vestibule of the gate from outside, and shall take his stand by the post of the gate. The priests shall offer his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening.​

Eze 46:3 The people of the land shall bow down at the entrance of that gate before the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the new moons.​

Eze 46:4 The burnt offering that the prince offers to the LORD on the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish.​

Eze 46:5 And the grain offering with the ram shall be an ephah, and the grain offering with the lambs shall be as much as he is able, together with a hin of oil to each ephah.​

The reference to six working days refers back to the Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20, and makes clear it is the weekly Sabbath.

No doubt there is the weekly Sabbath that started at Creation before sin and the annual sabbaths that started after the fall.
Lev 23 speak of the different sabbaths. There is God's Sabbath always referred to as "His" "My holy day" "THE holy day of the Lord" Isa 58:13 besides the feasts days and annual sabbaths so this doesn't change anything in regards to what I posted.

Moreover, note the close parallel to Col. 2: burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel:

You have food and drink offerings, which is likely the reference in Col. 2 to in regards to food and drink

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths​

But you also have the purpose of the list spelled out in Ezekiel 45: "all the appointed times of the house of Israel"

The feasts, new moons and sabbaths are the appointed times of Israel.​

Numbers 28-29 also spells those out, and they include the weekly sabbath (with its prescribed sacrifices).

There is every reason to think that Paul is including the weekly sabbath, as an appointed time, in this list.

I would hate to be wrong, misunderstanding Paul writings comes with some serious consequences 2 Peter 3:16, he came after God's covenant was ratified at the Cross, nothing could be added or changed. How does this understanding of Paul's writings align with the Testimony of Jesus Christ. Did He teach one of the Ten Commandments and Testimony of God would end at the Cross? He indicated it would not Mat 24:20 Isa 66:23 and told us not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments. Mat 5:19-30. If you believe a least commandment is one that God made Holy and Blessed and Sanctified and said Remember is a least commandment- Jesus still said not to break- or teach others to break. God keeps His promises, the ark of the covenant is in heaven Rev 11:19 Rev 15:5 where His word is settled Psa 119:89 not with 9 commandment, but with the Testimony of God written just the way God wrote them Exo 31:18 all Ten Commandments Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28. I guess that's where faith comes in, did God write 9 commandments and we should forget the only commandment He said to Remember. Ironic. Guess we will all find out soon enough.

Nice chat, but its not really fruitful and wrong forum, so I will leave it as agree to disagree

 

[tall73]

“... Or of the Sabbath days - Greek, “of the Sabbaths.” The word Sabbath in the Old Testament is applied not only to the seventh day, but to all the days of holy rest that were observed by the Hebrews, and particularly to the beginning and close of their great festivals. There is, doubtless, reference to those days in this place, since the word is used in the plural number, and the apostle does not refer particularly to the Sabbath properly so called. There is no evidence from this passage that he would teach that there was no obligation to observe any holy time, for there is not the slightest reason to believe that he meant to teach that one of the ten commandments had ceased to be binding on mankind. If he had used the word in the singular number - “the Sabbath,” it would then, of course, have been clear that he meant to teach that that commandment had ceased to be binding, and that a Sabbath was no longer to be observed. But the use of the term in the plural number, and the connection, show that he had his eye on the great number of days which were observed by the Hebrews as festivals, as a part of their ceremonial and typical law, and not to the moral law, or the Ten Commandments. No part of the moral law - no one of the ten commandments could be spoken of as “a shadow of good things to come.” These commandments are, from the nature of moral law, of perpetual and universal obligation. ...” - Albert Barnes, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

Adam Clarke, states on the same passage:

There is no intimation here that the Sabbath was done away, or that its moral use was superseded, by the introduction of Christianity. I have shown elsewhere that, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, is a command of perpetual obligation, and can never be superseded but by the final termination of time. ...” - Adam Clarke, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary states:
“... the sabbath — Omit “THE,” which is not in the Greek (compare Note, see on Gal_4:10). “SABBATHS” (not “the sabbaths”) of the day of atonement and feast of tabernacles have come to an end with the Jewish services to which they belonged (Lev_23:32, Lev_23:37-39). The weekly sabbath rests on a more permanent foundation, having been instituted in Paradise to commemorate the completion of creation in six days. Lev_23:38 expressly distinguished “the sabbath of the Lord” from the other sabbaths. A positive precept is right because it is commanded, and ceases to be obligatory when abrogated; a moral precept is commanded eternally, because it is eternally right. If we could keep a perpetual sabbath, as we shall hereafter, the positive precept of the sabbath, one in each week, would not be needed. Heb_4:9, “rests,” Greek, “keeping of sabbath” (Isa_66:23). But we cannot, since even Adam, in innocence, needed one amidst his earthly employments; therefore the sabbath is still needed and is therefore still linked with the other nine commandments, as obligatory in the spirit, though the letter of the law has been superseded by that higher spirit of love which is the essence of law and Gospel alike (Rom_13:8-10). ...” - Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, Colossians 2:16 Commentary.

I would hate to be wrong, misunderstanding Paul writings comes with some serious consequences

Even the Seventh-day Adventist Commentary notes the plural doesn't solve the argument:

​

Gr. Sabbata. Hence Sabbata though grammatically plural in form, may and often does represent a singular (Matt. 28:1; etc.). Either form may be adopted here​

​

They state that context decides what kind of Sabbath is involved, because, as I noted, with Scripture, the plural can be used of a singular weekly Sabbath.

They even used the same example. But there are others.

And we see that Ezekiel, which you admit is in mind, included the weekly Sabbath--from the text itself.

2 Peter 3:16, he came after God's covenant was ratified at the Cross, nothing could be added or changed. How does this understanding of Paul's writings align with the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

Very well.

You note that Jesus says the law does not pass away:

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.​

Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.​

But then you say some of the law was "blotted out".

That doesn't work.

The laws were fulfilled. Paul doesn't say the Sabbath, or the new moon, etc. were blotted out. He says there are still there, and are shadows that pointed to Jesus.

And the Jewish believers in Acts 21 were zealous for the whole law, because it pointed their fellow Jews to Christ.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Even the Seventh-day Adventist Commentary notes the plural doesn't solve the argument:

​

Gr. Sabbata. Hence Sabbata though grammatically plural in form, may and often does represent a singular (Matt. 28:1; etc.). Either form may be adopted here​

​

They state that context decides what kind of Sabbath is involved, because, as I noted, with Scripture, the plural can be used of a singular weekly Sabbath.

They even used the same example. But there are others.

And we see that Ezekiel, which you admit is in mind, included the weekly Sabbath--from the text itself.




Very well.

You note that Jesus says the law does not pass away:

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.​

Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.​

But then you say some of the law was "blotted out".

That doesn't work.

The laws were fulfilled. Paul doesn't say the Sabbath, or the new moon, etc. were blotted out. He says there are still there, and are shadows that pointed to Jesus.

And the Jewish believers in Acts 21 were zealous for the whole law, because it pointed their fellow Jews to Christ.

There is a Law that does not pass away - would that be the commandments that God divinely wrote with His own finger, spoke with His own voice, His own Testimony Exo 31:18 placed inside the ark of the covenant that is also in heaven Rev 11:19 Rev 15:5 where His word is settled Psa 119:89 and Sabbath continues, thus saith the Lord Isa 66:23

or would the law that not a jot or tittle pass be the law of Moses, written by a human being, on paper as it fades, set besides the ark of the covenant as a witness against Deut 31:24-26 where we are told in plain words many of these laws ended. Heb 10:1-10

If you don't think you need to keep the Sabbath commandment anymore and can teach others to break, well that's something we will have to stand before Jesus soon as He will be the Judge of this and all things. There is nothing we can hide from Him Ecc 12:13-14

Time will tell soon enough. Since there is no Scripture that says God abrogated the Sabbath commandment, so for me I am going to place my faith in what He said. We will all have to make these decisions, who are we going to obey. Rom 6:16

 

[Delvianna]

Thanks for the reply. What Catholic practices lead to destruction?

Okay, I'm just going to give one at the moment or this message is going to be too long. Let's take the idea of praying to others. This can be Mary or to people who you classify as "saints". Let's first start with the idea of prayer. Jesus says,

Matthew 6:5 says - " But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

There is no verse that tells you to pray to anyone else. This is why Jesus gave us an example through the Lords prayer. But the word for pray, is proseuchomai which holds the definition of "supplicate" or "worship". Supplicate means to beg or ask something earnestly or humbly but I want to focus on the fact that it specifically says "worship". So not only did Jesus tell us to pray to the Father and that there is no other verse that tells you to pray to anyone else, and since the definition is worship, that brings me to...

"And Jesus answered and said to him, “Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” - Luke 4:8

"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; " - Philippians 4:6

So praying to literally anything or anyone else is actually in violation of the 1st commandment because we are not supposed to worship anything else but God and only have 1. Regardless if you want to argue that praying to other people aren't "gods", its still an idol. An Idol is literally anything that you give worship to. So, still in the act of sin and because Catholics do this practice on the regular, this is just one aspect that is driving a giant wedge between you and your relationship with God, when he isn't the only one you worship.

Now for your argument that they're mediators...

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus," - 1 Timothy 2:5

The word "mediator" is mesites which also means, go-between-intermediary. That verse needs no other, there is only one and that's Christ. Salvation is a relationship with God and not one where you wedge other people in between when you are supposed to be putting your faith ONLY in God. Pray to him alone, worship him alone, or you might find that Jesus says he never knew you.

 

[tall73]

There is a Law that does not pass away - would that be the commandments that God divinely wrote with His own finger, spoke with His own voice, His own Testimony Exo 31:18 placed inside the ark of the covenant that is also in heaven Rev 11:19 Rev 15:5 where His word is settled Psa 119:89 and Sabbath continues, thus saith the Lord Isa 66:23

or would the law that not a jot or tittle pass be the law of Moses, written by a human being, on paper as it fades, set besides the ark of the covenant as a witness against Deut 31:24-26 where we are told in plain words many of these laws ended. Heb 10:1-10

Both. Because He quoted from both when explaining it.

A because Moses didn't make up commands. They were from the Lord too.

And because it is the law AND prophets--Scripture--which pointed to Him.

Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV)
Christ Fulfills the Law
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Both. Because He quoted from both when explaining it.

And because it is the law and prophets--Scripture--which pointed to Him.

Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV)
Christ Fulfills the Law
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

He quoted directly from the Ten Commandments first, gave two examples of the Ten Commandments and than said FUTHERMORE, which means in addition to. Mat 5:19-30 He than related some of the other laws back to the Ten Commandments. There is not one law that would be broken if one were truly keeping the Ten Commandments the way Jesus explained

Your example doesn't even make sense because animal sacrifices ended at the Cross for sin offerings when Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb once and for all. Your version sadly has Jesus contradicting Himself, which He doesn't, just misunderstandings.

God promised He would not alter the words of His covenant Psa 89:34 if you think man can alter something God of the Universe personally wrote, His Testimony that is inside His ark under His mercy seat, that can be between you and He. But as I said, for me, there is no Scripture that says the Sabbath commandment is abrogated, only man-made teachings, so it again comes down to which voice we are going to listen to, man or God.

 

[tall73]

Both. Because He quoted from both when explaining it.

A because Moses didn't make up commands. They were from the Lord too.

And because it is the law AND prophets--Scripture--which pointed to Him.

Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV)
Christ Fulfills the Law
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Now, why do you think He blotted out the new moon? And how was it a shadow if it was blotted out?

 

[tall73]

He quoted directly from the Ten Commandments first, gave two examples of the Ten Commandments and than said FUTHERMORE, which means in addition to. Mat 5:19-30

First....that is an admission He referred to both.

And did you miss law AND prophets?

Your example doesn't even make sense because animal sacrifices ended at the Cross for sin offerings when Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb once and for all. Your version sadly has Jesus contradicting Himself, which He doesn't, just misunderstandings.

Of course it makes sense. Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets. He didnt blot parts of them out.

He does blot out our record of sins.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

First....that is an admission He referred to both.

And did you miss law AND prophets?


Of course it makes sense. Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets. He didnt blot parts of them out.

He does blot out our record of sins.

Separates laws as shown by the clear Scriptures, but believe as you wish.

I personally would not one to remove one Jot or tittle that His mercy covers Exo 20:6 and the Ten Commandments is the only Law that sits under His mercy seat. Exo 25:21 in the ark of the covenant Exo 40:20 as revealed in heaven Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19 where mercy and judgement will come together one day soon. Rev 11:18-19

Not everyone who says Lord Lord will make it into heaven Mat 7:21-23

 

[Jerry N.]

Okay, I'm just going to give one at the moment or this message is going to be too long. Let's take the idea of praying to others. This can be Mary or to people who you classify as "saints". Let's first start with the idea of prayer. Jesus says,

Matthew 6:5 says - " But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

There is no verse that tells you to pray to anyone else. This is why Jesus gave us an example through the Lords prayer. But the word for pray, is proseuchomai which holds the definition of "supplicate" or "worship". Supplicate means to beg or ask something earnestly or humbly but I want to focus on the fact that it specifically says "worship". So not only did Jesus tell us to pray to the Father and that there is no other verse that tells you to pray to anyone else, and since the definition is worship, that brings me to...

"And Jesus answered and said to him, “Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” - Luke 4:8

"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; " - Philippians 4:6

So praying to literally anything or anyone else is actually in violation of the 1st commandment because we are not supposed to worship anything else but God and only have 1. Regardless if you want to argue that praying to other people aren't "gods", its still an idol. An Idol is literally anything that you give worship to. So, still in the act of sin and because Catholics do this practice on the regular, this is just one aspect that is driving a giant wedge between you and your relationship with God, when he isn't the only one you worship.

Now for your argument that they're mediators...

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus," - 1 Timothy 2:5

The word "mediator" is mesites which also means, go-between-intermediary. That verse needs no other, there is only one and that's Christ. Salvation is a relationship with God and not one where you wedge other people in between when you are supposed to be putting your faith ONLY in God. Pray to him alone, worship him alone, or you might find that Jesus says he never knew you.

I agree with you that praying to saints can be a big stumbling block, but I’m not sure it can lead to damnation. However, repeating the same prayer to the same saint in a ritual over and over again distracts from the saving grace of Christ and give the impression of working one’s way into heaven by saying the rosary plus other rituals. Even if the Roman Church does not teach this explicitly, it comes across to some Catholics implicitly. The other problem is Mary overshadowing Christ. Even if she could hear our prayers, she is not more merciful and forgiving than Christ. Again, Catholics say that it is not formal church doctrine, but many Catholics act like it is.

 

[The Liturgist]

Okay, I'm just going to give one at the moment or this message is going to be too long. Let's take the idea of praying to others. This can be Mary or to people who you classify as "saints". Let's first start with the idea of prayer. Jesus says,

Matthew 6:5 says - " But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly."

There is no verse that tells you to pray to anyone else. This is why Jesus gave us an example through the Lords prayer. But the word for pray, is proseuchomai which holds the definition of "supplicate" or "worship". Supplicate means to beg or ask something earnestly or humbly but I want to focus on the fact that it specifically says "worship". So not only did Jesus tell us to pray to the Father and that there is no other verse that tells you to pray to anyone else, and since the definition is worship, that brings me to...

"And Jesus answered and said to him, “Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” - Luke 4:8

"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; " - Philippians 4:6

So praying to literally anything or anyone else is actually in violation of the 1st commandment because we are not supposed to worship anything else but God and only have 1. Regardless if you want to argue that praying to other people aren't "gods", its still an idol. An Idol is literally anything that you give worship to. So, still in the act of sin and because Catholics do this practice on the regular, this is just one aspect that is driving a giant wedge between you and your relationship with God, when he isn't the only one you worship.

Now for your argument that they're mediators...

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus," - 1 Timothy 2:5

The word "mediator" is mesites which also means, go-between-intermediary. That verse needs no other, there is only one and that's Christ. Salvation is a relationship with God and not one where you wedge other people in between when you are supposed to be putting your faith ONLY in God. Pray to him alone, worship him alone, or you might find that Jesus says he never knew you.

Are you denying the doctrine of the Trinity? Since Jesus Christ is God incarnate, one with the Father according to the Gospel of John, prayers can absolutely be addressed to Him, but you seem to be referring to him as a Man distinct from God, as opposed to being God incarnate as a Man, which according to John 1:1-18 he absolutely is

By the way @SabbathBlessings with regard to the Incarnation - this absolutely can be proven biblically; the doctrinal errors I was referring to which lean on the Nicene Creed for refutation are rather errors such as Sabellianism, Eutychianism, Nestorianism, Monothelitism and so on.

I would note we have examples in Scripture of prayer to Christ our True God as well as the Father, and all traditional churches have prayers addressed to all three persons of the Trinity, primarily the Father but also in many cases the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Delvianna]

I agree with you that praying to saints can be a big stumbling block, but I’m not sure it can lead to damnation. However, repeating the same prayer to the same saint in a ritual over and over again distracts from the saving grace of Christ and give the impression of working one’s way into heaven by saying the rosary plus other rituals. Even if the Roman Church does not teach this explicitly, it comes across to some Catholics implicitly. The other problem is Mary overshadowing Christ. Even if she could hear our prayers, she is not more merciful and forgiving than Christ. Again, Catholics say that it is not formal church doctrine, but many Catholics act like it is.

Any continual sin that you don't want to give up leads to damnation.
Hebrews 10:26 - "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"

It's not the idea of messing up and sinning, asking for forgiveness and keep striving to walk righteously, it's the idea of the acceptance of sitting in sin continually, even if it's only 1 type of sin. So if you are continually breaking the first commandment, that alone leads to hell.

I do agree with the rest though. Like Mary..... there is a house by my parents house that has a statue of Mary and people will stop and pray to her and expect her to bless them. Technically, you have now made Mary into your god.

 

[Delvianna]

Are you denying the doctrine of the Trinity? Since Jesus Christ is God incarnate, one with the Father according to the Gospel of John, prayers can absolutely be addressed to Him, but you seem to be referring to him as a Man distinct from God, as opposed to being God incarnate as a Man, which according to John 1:1-18 he absolutely is

By the way @SabbathBlessings with regard to the Incarnation - this absolutely can be proven biblically; the doctrinal errors I was referring to which lean on the Nicene Creed for refutation are rather errors such as Sabellianism, Eutychianism, Nestorianism, Monothelitism and so on.

I would note we have examples in Scripture of prayer to Christ our True God as well as the Father, and all traditional churches have prayers addressed to all three persons of the Trinity, primarily the Father but also in many cases the Son and the Holy Spirit.

You misunderstand me, I'm saying if you pray to anyone other than God and since Jesus IS God and our mediator, then we can pray to him but thats it. Mary and anyone else false out of that category. I Hope that clears up the confusion