The fascinating reformed theology paradox of Hebrew 6:4-6

Strong in Him said:

Because he wanted to bring evil into his closest group of friends?
Because he didn't believe his own teaching - "when you pray, say ............. 'deliver us from evil'?"
Because he told darkness - i.e a devil - to be light to the world?

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No, simply to accomplish God's purpose. . .

Strong in Him said:

Hebrews 6 had not been written when Judas was alive.

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Never said that Hebrews 6 had to be in existence in Judas' time in order for us to apply it to him. I'm applying Heb 6 to him right now!

Strong in Him said:

I disagree that he "gave it up".
People choose to end their lives because they are in great despair and a very dark place. Yes I don't think he was expecting the resurrection - but
neither were the others; they were locked away in fear.

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You want to apply compassion inappropriately to one who mislabeled Jesus as perhaps a false Messiah. Judas thus attempted to dash the hopes of all who wished to obtain from him both righteousness and resurrection.

Jesus identified Judas as an unrepentant evil man, and yet you would do one better than Jesus? I don't think so. Believe what you will. You either base your beliefs on God's word or you make up your own word.

Clare73 said:

No, simply to accomplish God's purpose. . .

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I don't agree.
Jesus came to die for us.
He would have died on the cross whether Judas had betrayed him or not. Yes, there was an OT prophecy which said that Jesus would be betrayed by a friend, but Lazarus was Jesus' friend without being his disciple, and I'm sure there were others.

Are you asking us to believe that the light of the world deliberately chose someone who belonged to the darkness? That for 3 years, Jesus was casting demons out of people and tell his disciples to pray "deliver us from evil", while all the time knowing that he had chosen a demon/devil to be his friend and empowered that demon to do miracles and proclaim the kingdom of God?

If that had been the case, Judas committed no sin - he simply had God's power removed from him, reverted to what he had always been and did what he was "destined" to do.

RandyPNW said:

Never said that Hebrews 6 had to be in existence in Judas' time in order for us to apply it to him. I'm applying Heb 6 to him right now!

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I disagree that it could apply to him. What purpose, anyway, is there in applying a Scripture to someone who died centuries ago?

RandyPNW said:

You want to apply compassion inappropriately to one who mislabeled Jesus as perhaps a false Messiah.

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Judas didn't say that Jesus was a false Messiah.
And I'm not "applying compassion"; I'm trying to understand his actions in the light of the fact that he was chosen, and taught, by Jesus and he saw and performed miracles, including exorcisms. Also that Jesus came to die for us and would have done so with, or without, Judas
Judas is dead. It's not for me to judge him, assign blame or let him off the hook.

RandyPNW said:

Judas thus attempted to dash the hopes of all who wished to obtain from him both righteousness and resurrection.

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What does that mean?
The only thing that Judas dashed were his own hopes.

RandyPNW said:

Jesus identified Judas as an unrepentant evil man,

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Where did he say that?
Judas did repent. If he hadn't been remorseful he wouldn't have given the priests their money back and said that he had betrayed an innocent man. It was the priests who said that they didn't care about that - they had got what they wanted. They thought they had forever silenced Jesus.

RandyPNW said:

and yet you would do one better than Jesus?

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You seem to be saying that Jesus deliberately appointed an evil man and gave him power to do miracles (by the way, he didn't need to do that; the devil can perform miracles too. He just can't drive out one of his own.)
Why would Jesus then call him evil if he knew Judas was evil when he called him?

RandyPNW said:

Believe what you will. You either base your beliefs on God's word or you make up your own word.

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Ditto.

This is a totally academic argument anyway.
I believe that the commentaries I have read about Hebrews are correct. I believe that Hebrews 6 should be read in context - as should all Scripture - and that it is describing Jewish Christians who were being tempted to renounce Christianity just so that they could escape persecution, if and when it came. They were being tempted to deny Jesus. They were being tempted to save their own lives; not only by going back on their beliefs but by publicly stating that they had been mistaken and Jesus was not the Messiah. Once the threat of persecution was over, they expected to be able to "repent" again and to go back to believing in Jesus.
If you want to apply that to Judas - a man who did betray Jesus but then gave the money back and took his own life - that's up to you. But as everybody involved is dead and you have no authority to judge them, it makes little difference.

In fact the only problem with this at all would be if you were to go around judging others in the same way, or frightening people into believing that repentance is not possible.

Strong in Him said:

I don't agree.
Jesus came to die for us.
He would have died on the cross whether Judas had betrayed him or not.

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You are ignoring God's plan regarding it all. . .

Clare73 said:

You are ignoring God's plan regarding it all. . .

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No, I told you that it was God's plan for Jesus to come, die and redeem us from sin.

If you're saying that God planned for Jesus to choose Judas because he needed somebody to betray him - I don't agree.
To include someone in your group of closest followers, allow them to see miracles, to hear your teaching and things you haven't told anybody else, use them to do what they you wanted them to do and then condemn them for obeying you, is awful.

Strong in Him said:

No, I told you that it was God's plan for Jesus to come, die and redeem us from sin.

If you're saying that God planned for Jesus to choose Judas because he needed somebody to betray him - I don't agree.
To include someone in your group of closest followers, allow them to see miracles, to hear your teaching and things you haven't told anybody else,

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1) We don't judge God"s ways, he judges our ways.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord.
'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa 55:8-9)

Strong in Him said:

use them to do what they you wanted them to do and then condemn them for obeying you, is awful.

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Depends on your point of view. . .

To use a sinful enemy (Ro 5:10) of God's will to acomplish God's divine purposes is a demonstration of God's wisdom, power, sovereignty and glory.

Clare73 said:

We don't judge God"s ways, he judges our ways.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord.
'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa 55:8-9)

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But God is perfect, Matthew 5:48 God is love, 1 John 4:8. God has told us that love does not dishonour others, 1 Corinthians 13:5 and always protects, 1 Corinthians 13:7. He has also told us that he is the Lord and never changes, Malachi 3:6, 1 Samuel 15:29.
To say that God will not do something because it is against his nature, is not judging his ways. It's saying that you believe him to be who he has revealed himself to be - a Father who won't give his son a scorpion when that son wants fish.

Strong in Him said:

But God is perfect, Matthew 5:48 God is love, 1 John 4:8. God has told us that love does not dishonour others, 1 Corinthians 13:5 and always protects, 1 Corinthians 13:7. He has also told us that he is the Lord and never changes, Malachi 3:6, 1 Samuel 15:29.
To say that God will not do something because it is against his nature, is not judging his ways.

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Do you not see that you are applying your human reason/wisdom to God?
Have you studied in the light of the Holy Spirit his word from Ge 1:1 to Bonded Leather to understand him and his ways?

Strong in Him said:

It's saying that you believe him to be who he has revealed himself to be - a Father who won't give his son a scorpion when that son wants fish.

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It takes takes more than a verse to undersand God as he has revealed himself in his word written (2 Tim 3:16).

Pardon me for saying so, but your reference points reveal your study is incomplete.

Clare73 said:

Do you not see that you are applying your human reason/wisdom to God?

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No, I was telling ou what Scripture says about God.

Clare73 said:

Have you studied in the light of the Holy Spirit his word from Ge 1:1 to Bonded Leather to understand him and his ways?

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I've no idea what bonded leather is, but I can assure you that I read, and study, Scripture.

Clare73 said:

It takes takes more than a verse to undersand God as he has revealed himself in his word written (2 Tim 3:16).

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No one can fully understand God.
But the God that I see revealed in Scripture wants a relationship with his people and does not give up even when they rebel against him.
Adam and Eve sinned and were escorted from the garden - after being clothed, by God, in robes made from animal skin because they were ashamed of their nakedness.
Cain murdered Abel but was not killed by God. Instead, he married and had children.
Sin was so great by the time of Noah that God sent a flood on the earth. Noah and his family were saved, though they themselves were not perfect.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were the patriarchs - all sinned and had 2nd, 3rd and more chances.
Moses was chosen to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. He sinned, argued with God and was not perfect. he didn't get to go into the Promised Land but God did not give up on him. He was the only one in the OT who saw God face to face and he appeared next to Jesus at the transfiguration.
Joshua, Gideon, Samson, Samuel and the prophets were all great people of God. All sinned, messed up and betrayed him; all were given 2nd chances.
David committed adultery, murder and broke half of the commandments over the incident with Bathsheba alone. He repented. He later sinned when he took a census of the people. He was far from perfect but was called a man after God's own heart.
Ahab was a wicked king and was condemned by Elijah. He repented.
The city of Nineveh were condemned by Jonah; they repented and were not destroyed.
The nation of Israel broke their covenant with God again and again. They were punished/corrected, repented because they did not like their punishment, were restored and promised to serve God, sinned again, were punished etc etc. They often worshipped other gods - thus breaking
God's commandments - and some of these other "gods" demanded child sacrifice. Yet the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not give up on them completely, nor stop loving them.
Years later, God sent Jesus - a Jew, descended from King David - to offer his life as a sacrifice for sin. Millions of people since have become Christians, sinned, been forgiven and restored, been filled again with God's love and Spirit, and so on. We all sin - none of us is perfect 24/7 in thought, word, deed and unconscious desires. God forgives and restores.
As 1 Corinthians 13 says, love never gives up, always hopes, always perseveres. This chapter is a great definition of love, but the greatest act of love was on the cross when the Son of God laid down his perfect life for us, Romans 5:8, 1 John 3:16.

Scripture shows me that God is merciful, forgiving, patient and doesn't give up even on those made in his image who hurt him again and again.

Clare73 said:

Pardon me for saying so, but your reference points reveal your study is incomplete.

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I only quoted a few verses - you have no idea what, or how much, I have studied.

Strong in Him said:

No, I was telling ou what Scripture says about God.

I've no idea what bonded leather is, but I can assure you that I read, and study, Scripture.

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Bonded Leather is on the back cover, denotes the end of the Bible.

You have presented only part of what Scripture says about God, I suspect it is the part which you like.

Strong in Him said:

No one can fully understand God.

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But we can at least know the full picture of Scripture, which you do not present.

Strong in Him said:

But the God that I see revealed in Scripture wants a relationship with his people and does not give up even when they rebel against him.
Adam and Eve sinned and were escorted from the garden - after being clothed, by God, in robes made from animal skin because they were ashamed of their nakedness.
Cain murdered Abel but was not killed by God. Instead, he married and had children.
Sin was so great by the time of Noah that God sent a flood on the earth. Noah and his family were saved, though they themselves were not perfect.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were the patriarchs - all sinned and had 2nd, 3rd and more chances.
Moses was chosen to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. He sinned, argued with God and was not perfect. he didn't get to go into the Promised Land but God did not give up on him. He was the only one in the OT who saw God face to face and he appeared next to Jesus at the transfiguration.
Joshua, Gideon, Samson, Samuel and the prophets were all great people of God. All sinned, messed up and betrayed him; all were given 2nd chances.
David committed adultery, murder and broke half of the commandments over the incident with Bathsheba alone. He repented. He later sinned when he took a census of the people. He was far from perfect but was called a man after God's own heart.
Ahab was a wicked king and was condemned by Elijah. He repented.
The city of Nineveh were condemned by Jonah; they repented and were not destroyed.
The nation of Israel broke their covenant with God again and again. They were punished/corrected, repented because they did not like their punishment, were restored and promised to serve God, sinned again, were punished etc etc. They often worshipped other gods - thus breaking
God's commandments - and some of these other "gods" demanded child sacrifice. Yet the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not give up on them completely, nor stop loving them.
Years later, God sent Jesus - a Jew, descended from King David - to offer his life as a sacrifice for sin. Millions of people since have become Christians, sinned, been forgiven and restored, been filled again with God's love and Spirit, and so on. We all sin - none of us is perfect 24/7 in thought, word, deed and unconscious desires. God forgives and restores.
As 1 Corinthians 13 says, love never gives up, always hopes, always perseveres. This chapter is a great definition of love, but the greatest act of love was on the cross when the Son of God laid down his perfect life for us, Romans 5:8, 1 John 3:16.

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Scripture shows me that God is merciful, forgiving, patient and doesn't give up even on those made in his image who hurt him again and again.

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Is that all it shows you?

Strong in Him said:

I only quoted a few verses - you have no idea what, or how much, I have studied.

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That falls somewhat short of an affirmation.

Clare73 said:

Bonded Leather is on the back cover, denotes the end of the Bible.

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Revelation is the end of the Bible - but whatever.

Clare73 said:

You have presented only part of what Scripture says about God, I suspect it is the part which you like.

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You want me to write several long posts explaining who God is?
Look it up for yourself - or better still, look at Jesus.

Clare73 said:

But we can at least know the full picture of Scripture, which you do not present.

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There isn't enough space and I haven't enough time.

I showed you what pertains to our discussion; that God is love, that he is patient, merciful, compassionate, forgiving etc.
Which means that I do not believe he would choose Judas, whom he knew to be a devil, give him the ability to drive out demons (which Jesus said is impossible) and then, when Judas had fulfilled God's purposes - presumably betraying Jesus - toss him aside and condemn him.

That is the impression I had after reading your posts. I asked a few times if you were saying that God is like this and got no answer.

Clare73 said:

Is that all it shows you?

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What I said is entirely Scriptural and entirely relevant.
The message I've been getting from this recent discussion is that Hebrews 6 can be applied, retrospectively, to Judas, because Judas was evil, a devil and was never saved. I asked why Jesus would have deliberately chosen someone he knew was a devil - i.e. belongs to Satan - how he, who is light, could have fellowship with darkness and why he would have given him power to perform miracles.
Your answer was this this was all part of God's purpose - which suggested that God deliberately chose evil to fulfil his plan of salvation and then got rid of Judas when he didn't need him any longer.

I don't believe that Judas was evil from the beginning and Jesus deliberately chose to have fellowship with a devil.
I don't believe that he gave a devil power to cast out demons, as he had taught that Satan cannot drive out Satan.
I don't believe that Judas was one of the 12 only because God "needed" someone who would betray Jesus and bring about the cross.
I am not sure, although I don't know, that Judas deliberately turned away from, and rejected Jesus. I think it possible that he believed Jesus was the Messiah, everyone knew the Messiah would be a military king who would defeat the Romans and he tried to force Jesus to fight back when he was arrested.
I believe these things because a) I have read various commentaries and b) this fits with the God of amazing love and endless compassion and forgiveness who I know, trust in and serve.

I also don't think that Hebrews 6 can be applied to Judas - but as he, and everyone else, is dead, it doesn't matter.

Strong in Him said:

Revelation is the end of the Bible - but whatever.
You want me to write several long posts explaining who God is?

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I give up. . .do I?

Strong in Him said:

Revelation is the end of the Bible - but whatever.
You want me to write several long posts explaining who God is?
Look it up for yourself - or better still, look at Jesus.
There isn't enough space and I haven't enough time.
I showed you what pertains to our discussion; that God is love, that he is patient, merciful, compassionate, forgiving etc.
Which means that I do not believe he would choose Judas, whom he knew to be a devil, give him the ability to drive out demons (which Jesus said is impossible) and then, when Judas had fulfilled God's purposes - presumably betraying Jesus - toss him aside and condemn him.

That is the impression I had after reading your posts. I asked a few times if you were saying that God is like this and got no answer.

What I said is entirely Scriptural and entirely relevant.
The message I've been getting from this recent discussion is that Hebrews 6 can be applied, retrospectively, to Judas, because Judas was evil, a devil and was never saved. I asked why Jesus would have deliberately chosen someone he knew was a devil - i.e. belongs to Satan - how he, who is light, could have fellowship with darkness and why he would have given him power to perform miracles.
Your answer was this this was all part of God's purpose - which suggested that God deliberately chose evil to fulfil his plan of salvation and then got rid of Judas when he didn't need him any longer.

I don't believe that Judas was evil from the beginning and Jesus deliberately chose to have fellowship with a devil.
I don't believe that he gave a devil power to cast out demons, as he had taught that Satan cannot drive out Satan.
I don't believe that Judas was one of the 12 only because God "needed" someone who would betray Jesus and bring about the cross.
I am not sure, although I don't know, that Judas deliberately turned away from, and rejected Jesus. I think it possible that he believed Jesus was the Messiah, everyone knew the Messiah would be a military king who would defeat the Romans and he tried to force Jesus to fight back when he was arrested.
I believe these things because a) I have read various commentaries and b) this fits with the God of amazing love and endless compassion and forgiveness who I know, trust in and serve.

I also don't think that Hebrews 6 can be applied to Judas - but as he, and everyone else, is dead, it doesn't matter.

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Strong in Him said:

Look it up for yourself - or better still, look at Jesus.
There isn't enough space and I haven't enough time.
I showed you what pertains to our discussion; that God is love, that he is patient, merciful, compassionate, forgiving etc.
Which means that I do not believe he would choose Judas, whom he knew to be a devil, give him the ability to drive out demons (which Jesus said is impossible) and then, when Judas had fulfilled God's purposes - presumably betraying Jesus - toss him aside and condemn him. That is the impression I had after reading your posts. I asked a few times if you were saying that God is like this and got no answer.

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Which impression I got from Jesus (Mt 26:24).

Clare73 said:

Which impression I got from Jesus (Mt 26:24).

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Considering Judas spent the last few days of his life in despair believing he had betrayed an innocent man, killed himself and - unknown to him -has been vilified and hated ever since, yes, maybe it would have been better had he never been born.

That is not at all the same as saying that Judas was chosen to betray Jesus - as if this were his only purpose in life.

Strong in Him said:

Considering Judas spent the last few days of his life in despair believing he had betrayed an innocent man, killed himself and - unknown to him -has been vilified and hated ever since, yes, maybe it would have been better had he never been born.

That is not at all the same as saying that Judas was chosen to betray Jesus - as if this were his only purpose in life.

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Perhaps you should hear no more and no less than what I say rather than what you think I mean.

Clare73 said:

Perhaps you should hear no more and no less than what I say rather than what you think I mean.

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In post # 626, I said;

Strong in Him said:

If you're saying that God planned for Jesus to choose Judas because he needed somebody to betray him - I don't agree.
To include someone in your group of closest followers, allow them to see miracles, to hear your teaching and things you haven't told anybody else, use them to do what they you wanted them to do and then condemn them for obeying you, is awful.

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To which you replied, We don't judge God's ways, he judges ours."

If I'm stating what I think you mean, and you don't mean that at all, could you please explain your position more clearly?

Strong in Him said:

Considering Judas spent the last few days of his life in despair believing he had betrayed an innocent man, killed himself and - unknown to him -has been vilified and hated ever since, yes, maybe it would have been better had he never been born.

That is not at all the same as saying that Judas was chosen to betray Jesus - as if this were his only purpose in life.

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It's not about being "his only purpose in life," it's about being chosen for God's purposes.

Strong in Him said:

To which you replied, We don't judge God's ways, he judges ours."
If I'm stating what I think you mean, and you don't mean that at all, could you please explain your position more clearly?

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Judas was "chosen. . .to fulfill the Scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.' (Ps 41:9). . .I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me. . .It is the one who to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it into the dish. . .Judas took the bread. . .What you are about to do, do quickly." (Jn 13:18-28)

Clare73 said:

It's not about being "his only purpose in life," it's about being chosen for God's purposes.

Judas was "chosen. . .to fulfill the Scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.' (Ps 41:9). . .I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me. . .It is the one who to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it into the dish. . .Judas took the bread. . .What you are about to do, do quickly." (Jn 13:18-28)

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Clare73 said:

It's not about being "his only purpose in life," it's about being chosen for God's purposes.

Judas was "chosen. . .to fulfill the Scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.' (Ps 41:9). . .I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me. . .It is the one who to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it into the dish. . .Judas took the bread. . .What you are about to do, do quickly." (Jn 13:18-28)

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Thank you for explaining.
But I disagree that Judas was chosen to betray Jesus - for all the reasons that I have given.
I don't believe Jesus would have chosen a devil to be one of his closest friends and the devil would have had no interest in, or ability to, preach the Good News.
I don't believe Jesus would give power to a devil to cast out demons, having already said that Satan cannot drive out Satan.
I don't believe God needed Judas' betrayal to send Jesus to the cross - that is saying that his whole plan of salvation depended on one man who was a devil. Which is very close to saying that the devil s responsible for the cross and our being reconciled to God.

But if God DID choose Judas to betray Jesus, then Judas was only doing God's will and carrying out his plan. Judas Iscariot should therefore be seen as a good example of someone who was chosen to do God's will. It is nonsense that Jesus would say it was better if Judas had not been born.