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Is belief/non-belief a morally culpable state?

timothyu

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The notion that every argument from authority is a lie
But it is a lie, regardless of side, simply because it is based on the backwards thinking of mankind that focuses on self-interest, the self-serving reason for all wrongdoings. No reliability there.
 
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childeye 2

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Again, that's not what a reliable source means, and that's not what someone means when they say the word "reliable source."
For what it's worth, it appears to me that you're wanting to establish the objective meaning of "reliable" which connotes a positive meaning. And Bradski is applying a subjective meaning that is objectively going to appear as a negative. So, For what it's worth I'd say you're both right.
 
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childeye 2

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Yeah, I was formerly engaged with someone on this forum who saw the Eternal as a tyrant. And of course if one has a faulty view; they are not going to seek help either.
Did you ask them HOW Jesus, who submitted to torture and death, and forgave his crucifiers because they know not what they do, can possibly represent a tyrant image of God? Of course, I know God reveals His son, but it could be you or I who plants or waters.
 
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Larniavc

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I assume the answer may differ depending on the belief in question. Beliefs that lead to right/wrong actions will clearly have a moral component. But what about beliefs regarding evolution or that the earth is flat/spherical?
People can believe whatever they want; a belief enacted upon is harmless.

It is actions that count; not what we think. I can imagine lopping my neighbour’s head off with an arming sword in full harness but as long as I don’t I’m as blameless as the long day.
 
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zippy2006

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For what it's worth, it appears to me that you're wanting to establish the objective meaning of "reliable" which connotes a positive meaning. And Bradski is applying a subjective meaning that is objectively going to appear as a negative. So, For what it's worth I'd say you're both right.
No, I am just pointing to the meaning: the thing you will find in dictionaries. One can argue about whether a source is reliable, but both parties know what 'reliable' means.
 
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childeye 2

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No, I am just pointing to the meaning: the thing you will find in dictionaries. One can argue about whether a source is reliable, but both parties know what 'reliable' means.
I'm agreeing with you about the dictionary definition. The dictionary is going to give the objective meaning which carries a positive connotation. In other words, to be reliable is a 'good' thing.

However, sentiments are different than definitions. You know, like how somebody can say "GOOD DAY SIR!!!" and they are actually expressing the sentiment "Get the heck out of my face".

Bradski is expressing a sentiment/meaning, not a definition. I think he means to express a negative connotation indicating that in this case the reliable source actually means spinning the narrative to what someone wants to hear. So that's why I'm telling you that I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding him.
 
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Bradskii

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Again, that's not what a reliable source means, and that's not what someone means when they say the word "reliable source."
Where's that sigh emoticon...

If someone is discussing vaccines for example, and uses a quote from someone to back up whatever point they are trying to make then they are using that quote from someone they consider to be a reliable source. Rather obviously. But if that person doesn't even have a medical degree and has a track record of ignoring actual medical advice then they are not a reliable source. Again, rather obviously.
 
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timothyu

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But if that person doesn't even have a medical degree and has a track record of ignoring actual medical advice then they are not a reliable source. Again, rather obviously.
That’s what institutionalized religion said to control the narrative
 
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The Righterzpen

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Did you ask them HOW Jesus, who submitted to torture and death, and forgave his crucifiers because they know not what they do, can possibly represent a tyrant image of God? Of course, I know God reveals His son, but it could be you or I who plants or waters.
Yeah, pointed all that out to him; his "beef" was that he couldn't get out of his head that Christ did everything he did just so people would praise him. And because of God's "selfish need for praise"; the guy would not heed anything anyone said. And when I told him he was wrong about his assertion of God's motives; he admitted that he "possibly could be misunderstanding this" and then when I told him. "Well, then repent." He accused me of bullying him.

:doh:
Not my circus, not my monkeys, not my problem.
The issue between him and "the Eternal" is above my pay grade.
 
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zippy2006

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I think he means to express a negative connotation indicating that in this case the reliable source actually means spinning the narrative to what someone wants to hear.
A dictionary definition is neither positive nor negative. It is just a definition. It expresses meaning.

And just as "reliable source" does not mean "someone who agrees with me," so also "reliable source" does not mean, "spinning the narrative to what I want to hear." If @Bradskii means "spinning the narrative to what I want to hear" by "reliable source," then he is using words improperly, which is my whole point.

The point here is that no real argumentation is occurring when @Bradskii's whole approach hinges on false meanings and scare quotes. "Some people lie when they say 'reliable source.'" Okay, so what? What does that lie have to do with the OP? It doesn't actually answer the OP at all.

To be clear, here is the exchange:

...that's argument from authority. They want to know if the claim came from what they consider to be a reliable source.
A 'reliable source' is simply one that agrees with you.
So @Bradskii has here literally claimed that every single person who asks whether an unattributed quote comes from a reliable source is lying, is using "reliable source" falsely, and really means, "a source that agrees with me." Again, this is a crazy level of sophistry and conspiratorial thinking.
 
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childeye 2

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Yeah, pointed all that out to him; his "beef" was that he couldn't get out of his head that Christ did everything he did just so people would praise him. And because of God's "selfish need for praise"; the guy would not heed anything anyone said. And when I told him he was wrong about his assertion of God's motives; he admitted that he "possibly could be misunderstanding this" and then when I told him. "Well, then repent." He accused me of bullying him.

:doh:
Not my circus, not my monkeys, not my problem.
The issue between him and "the Eternal" is above my pay grade.
Wow, sounds like you were doing great till you pushed the rebellion button. I don't mean to criticize, I've done the same thing. We need to think of better ways to say things keeping in mind we're dealing with damaged minds. Probably could have mentioned that only one of these images is true and the other false and whichever image WE believe in, will live in OUR hearts. Hence, it comes off as we're all the same.
 
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Bradskii

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So @Bradskii has here literally claimed that every single person who asks whether an unattributed quote comes from a reliable source is lying, is using "reliable source" falsely, and really means, "a source that agrees with me." Again, this is a crazy level of sophistry and conspiratorial thinking.
A guy is arguing against vaccines and says something stupid. I say he's wrong and I quote an epidemiologist who is recognised as one of the world's leading experts on viral infections. I quote him because A: he's a source that agrees with my position and B: he's what I consider to be a reliable source.

Read A again. The guy agrees with my position. Nobody quotes who they consider to be a reliable source that takes the opposite of whatever position it is that they're arguing. It's a given. Now, whether the quote actually is from a reliable source then becomes the bone of contention. I've used an accredited expert in the field. If the other guy is quoting someone his brother once met in a pub who used to work part time for a vet, then his 'reliable source' comes complete with scare quotes.

Does this relate to the OP? Well, yeah. People have a belief and discount all evidence to the contrary. They look for someone who agrees with them and use what they have said to back them up. They obviously consider their testimony to be reliable. They have to or it would cast doubt on what they believe. All reasonable people would discount it and tell the guy who holds to something stupid that his 'reliable source' is nothing of the kind. And you'd use the scare quotes to emphasise just that. That's exactly what they're for. If you were talking to the guy one on one you'd do the air quotes when you said it.
 
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childeye 2

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A dictionary definition is neither positive nor negative. It is just a definition. It expresses meaning.
The dictionary gives the objective meaning of 'reliable' which denotes a 'good' thing (a positive). That's why when we look up the word 'unreliable' it denotes a 'bad' thing (a negative). This is a true dichotomy ---> reliable/unreliable.
And just as "reliable source" does not mean "someone who agrees with me," so also "reliable source" does not mean, "spinning the narrative to what I want to hear." If @Bradskii means "spinning the narrative to what I want to hear" by "reliable source," then he is using words improperly, which is my whole point.

So how exactly is Bradski, supposed to express the sentiment that propaganda doesn't work unless the propaganda presenter is seen as a straight shooter (reliable)? It's not like a liar tells you I'm a liar before he lies. No, we can expect a liar to say they are the reliable source even as the liar calls the reliable source fake news.

When a source is claimed to be a reliable source, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are. The devil comes dressed as an angel of light for the purpose of deceiving people. So, also is it completely plausible to observe that there's a pride in people that doesn't want to admit that they are the deceived ones, so they will prefer spin that reinforces their prejudices.

The point here is that no real argumentation is occurring when @Bradskii's whole approach hinges on false meanings and scare quotes. "Some people lie when they say 'reliable source.'" Okay, so what? What does that lie have to do with the OP? It doesn't actually answer the OP at all.

To be clear, here is the exchange:

So @Bradskii has here literally claimed that every single person who asks whether an unattributed quote comes from a reliable source is lying, is using "reliable source" falsely, and really means, "a source that agrees with me." Again, this is a crazy level of sophistry and conspiratorial thinking.
Bradski may lean to the cynical side, but he's definitely on topic.
 
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Fervent

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Okay, I get what you're saying. The original question has morphed in meaning for me more than once which created some misunderstanding for me as pertains to the true intent of the question. As I recall, this was the final version:

2PhiloVoid said:
Let's make it simpler here: Does anyone on this forum hold a belief that they know is false?

This was my reply:
childeye 2 said:
You may as well ask me if I'm a mind reader. As far as I can see, your question proposes a scenario that is not possible, unless someone is lying to themselves.
Yeah, that change seems to have been because your question missed the intent of the original question.
I think you're misunderstanding me so we may be saying the same thing in different ways.

I never said I don't use axiomatic statements or premises as a basis to conduct semantic analysis. I did comment on why it was the only viable solution of the three. I don't know why you think a premise is immune to questioning. I certainly don't think so. I'm just establishing a workable coherent premise. You can question any axiomatic statements I've used or perhaps you may even see ways to improve upon them.
Axioms are held to be self-evident, or in the case of math taken as a foundational principle. Axioms can't be questioned, they can only be accepted or rejected because they're the basis for everything that comes after.
I get that it's a problem in epistemics. Like I said, apart from "resorting to the circular reasoning" (a logical fallacy doesn't qualify as a solution), it's a true statement. What statement? Your statement in italics below.
Circular justification isn't always incorrect, there are some things(such as inductive reasoning) that require circular justification to operate.
childeye 2 said:

Fervent: We either accept something as true dogmatically, resort to circcular reasoning, or find ourselves facing an infinite regress of questions. <--- Childeye responds: Apart from the circular reasoning, this statement is true. Why? Because by definition, it's not possible to prove that that which is Eternal is actually Eternal.
Who defined it as such? You're simply making an assertion, not an argument.
Because by definition, ---> it's not possible to prove that that which is Eternal is actually Eternal. <--- So Fervent, do you understand that this is the reason why I see the question 'Why?' as infinitely regressive?


I know you're interested in the Munchhausen trilemma but try to consider that for me the issue began with overcoming confirmation bias, as well as responding to a query about how we can see our epistemic faults.

Fervent said:
I fail to see how our motives in assknig "why" would alter the productivity of the act. <--- I took this as an invite to show how motives in asking "why" would alter the productivity of the act.
Motives don't change facts, or factual status.
Therefore, I pointed out how in the case of slander it's productive to question the slanderer as to Why he/she believes what he/she states., and alternatively, that we shouldn't question Why someone would show Grace to others because that would be unproductive.

If we don't question slander, it is wickedness. If we question slander, it is faithfulness.
Defending negative prejudice is cynicism, defending positive prejudice is grace.
Negative prejudice violates Love others as oneself, positive prejudice doesn't.


But you're resorting to a circular argument when you say we must question everything so as to not take anything as self-evident. And just because we assert something as self-evident doesn't mean we can't question it or rather check it. It's just there to establish something to reason upon.
No, I'm not saying we must question everything. I'm stating that the only way to avoid radical skepticism is by appealing to one of the insufficient prongs of the trilemma, you've made it clear which prong you prefer but seem to completely miss the issue with it.
To do subjective semantic analysis, one needs to examine the beginnings and predictable conclusions of contrary propositions using deductive and inductive reasoning so as to arrive at a truth value through comparison. Hence, we can check a claim of Truth similarly to checking one's addition by using subtraction, or in subjective analysis, similar to calculating longitude and latitude with the compass rose.
Induction depends on circular justification(see Hume's fork), deduction on dogmatic. As for what you're saying here, it just seems like word salad rather than conveying nything meaningful.
Light allows us to see seems indisputable to me. It wouldn't matter if half the population of the world disagrees.

We are part of reality, but I get your point.

Overall, a purposeful existence would experience something meaningful.

Love others as I would want to be loved.

To fill in the blank with 'something' is true/false, is to have created a sound semantical structure so as to examine positives and negative directions in thought and thereby discover what is true/false, as well as establish well founded beliefs. It's more productive than just regressively asking why/why not, because deception is based on turning negatives into positives, positives into negatives, or making them appear the same so that no one can tell the difference. <---Is all this word salad to you?

Semantics are about the sentiments that words carry, insights into the human condition and reasons for behavior (which we experience in reality). When examining sentiments people express in a moral/immoral paradigm, a statement like "something is true/false" is referencing beliefs and unbelief that manifest things like despair, doublemindedness, faith, cynicism, grace, carnal vanity, and generally reveal positive and negative connotations, as well as objective and subjective perspectives. <--- If this is word salad to you, you can ask for clarity.

I'm not refusing to subject any premise I use to skeptical inquiry; I would welcome any possible improvements. I must ask, do you think it's possible to project bias onto others? And how is this below not circular reasoning?

There are no universally self-evident Truths because the Dogmatic solution is no solution.
The Dogmatic solution is no solution because there are no universally self-evident Truths.

See this statement: "No one can prove something is Eternal means we must either trust or distrust".

I know it's rough around the edges but in a quick subjective semantic analysis, I would guess some people will say it's a proposition designed to postulate that something/Someone is Eternal. While others will say it's the foundational self-evident Truth for the necessity of Faith.
Most of this is incomprehensible to me.

axiom​

noun

ax·i·om ˈak-sē-əm

Synonyms of axiom
1
: a statement accepted as true as the basis for argument or inference : postulate sense 1
one of the axioms of the theory of evolution


2
: an established rule or principle or a self-evident truth
cites the axiom "no one gives what he does not have"


3
: a maxim widely accepted on its intrinsic merit
Definition 2 is the one that serves as one of the "solutions" to Munchaussen, with a little of definition 3. But the very concept of "self-evident truth" is debateable whether such things exist. Axioms are fine in math, but even ones that at first glance seem to be impossible to be false such as whether or not parallel lines intersect can be challenged and give interesting new areas to explore.
 
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zippy2006

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A guy is arguing against vaccines and says something stupid. I say he's wrong and I quote an epidemiologist who is recognised as one of the world's leading experts on viral infections. I quote him because A: he's a source that agrees with my position and B: he's what I consider to be a reliable source.

Read A again. The guy agrees with my position.
Read B. You consider the guy to be a reliable source. Yet earlier you literally said, "A 'reliable source' is simply one that agrees with you." If that were true then A and B would be identical. What's happening here is that you are maintaining a double standard via your scare quotes.

Of course no one has claimed that an argument from authority results in a conclusion contrary to the arguer's beliefs. The claim is that people make arguments from authority, and that they use those who they consider to be a reliable source. You contradicted that claim and said, "A 'reliable source' is simply one that agrees with you."

Does this relate to the OP? Well, yeah. [1] People have a belief and discount all evidence to the contrary. [2] They look for someone who agrees with them and use what they have said to back them up. They obviously consider their testimony to be reliable. [3] They have to or it would cast doubt on what they believe.
Lots of bad logic here. (2) does not follow from (1). (1) does not follow from (2). (3) does not follow.

So basically everything you say here is false, except your stipulated (1), which I already canvassed:

"Some people lie when they say 'reliable source.'" Okay, so what? What does that lie have to do with the OP?

But we could take you to be saying, "Belief is morally culpable when one discounts, a priori, all evidence to the contrary." This does relate to the OP even though it has nothing to do with your argument relating to sources. So this is a true but limited conclusion. :oldthumbsup:

I say that your argument does not address the OP because the OP is inquiring into the relation between belief and culpability. Your response is something like, "If someone has a belief, refuses to consider any evidence to the contrary, and artificially and lazily produces supports for their belief, then they believe culpably." Right, so we have a case of a theoretical person who believes culpably, but we haven't done much work to elucidate the relation between belief and culpability.

Similarly, I could say, "If someone forms beliefs randomly by casting dice in conjunction with dictionary indices, then they believe culpably." Again, this is a case of a theoretical person who believes culpably, but we haven't done much work to elucidate the relation between belief and culpability.

Part of the problem is that you indiscriminately mix arguments, such as selection bias vs. argument from authority. For example:

Many people in the forum will accept a statement as being true, not dependent on any evidence presented, but based purely on who made the statement.
This is an argument from authority, and it is a valid argument. "I believe that the Big Bang was a singularity because Stephen Hawking said so, not because I have independent evidence." This is not a culpable belief, or even a wrong belief. You don't seem to understand the validity of argument from authority.

Similarly:

If someone has a position on vaccines/climate change/immigration/miracles etc then there's a tendency for them to accept authorities that agree with them and reject those that don't.
Everyone has a tendency to accept opinions that agree with them and reject those that don't. That's also perfectly rational.

Put simply: you are oversimplifying the relation between belief and culpability while in the process enunciating various false claims. Even if someone believes that an unreliable source is reliable, this does not necessarily indicate culpable belief.
 
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zippy2006

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The dictionary gives the objective meaning of 'reliable' which denotes a 'good' thing (a positive). That's why when we look up the word 'unreliable' it denotes a 'bad' thing (a negative).
Nope, the dictionaries do not say anything about whether such words are "positive" or "negative." Show me a dictionary that does so.

Positivity is not a function of the dictionary's "object language." Reliability is reliability. Whether it is good or bad depends on context. The reliable doctor is good; the reliable dictator is bad.

So how exactly is Bradski, supposed to express the sentiment that propaganda doesn't work unless the propaganda presenter is seen as a straight shooter (reliable)?
He could say, "Propaganda doesn't work unless the propaganda is seen as reliable." But then we're back to the question of what this has to do with the OP.

Bradski may lean to the cynical side
The claim that all arguments from authority are made in bad faith is not only cynical, it is highly irrational.
 
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Bradskii

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I say that your argument does not address the OP because the OP is inquiring into the relation between belief and culpability. Your response is something like, "If someone has a belief, refuses to consider any evidence to the contrary, and artificially and lazily produces supports for their belief, then they believe culpably." Right, so we have a case of a theoretical person who believes culpably, but we haven't done much work to elucidate the relation between belief and culpability.
Belief is a position that you hold on any given proposition which you consider or accept to be true. I'm using consider to imply some thought has gone into it and accept to imply that no investigation has been made.

If you accepted that I was telling the truth when I say that I have a phd in astrophysics, have written a best seller and won 3 Olympic gold medals then I wouldn't class that as you being culpable. Rather that you were being gullible.

But if you said that vaccines are dangerous because the guy in the pub said so and you intentionally ignore evidence to the contrary and try to convince others that you are right then you have moved from being gullible to being culpable.

You can't blame someone for being gullible. But you can blame them if you intentionally promote a belief that any honest investigation would prove false.
 
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childeye 2

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Yeah, that change seems to have been because your question missed the intent of the original question.
It is astute of you to notice that it was probably my question to another poster that was the impetus to rephrase the original question into a simpler form. That part of your assessment, I am forced to agree with.

As I understand it, to write a workable algorithm one has to ask the right questions.

So, likewise, while my turn of the question grossly deviated from the authors original intent, it's not like I didn't see there was more than one inference that could be drawn from the original format which was designed to be rhetorical.

That observation was included in my initial response -->"If I say yes, would you believe me?" -> Indicates I knew the poster anticipated a no response -> and that "Yes" was not the answer he was anticipating-> which is why I also provided a qualifier ---> "Yes, I do think people must question their beliefs on this forum -> whenever correction is taking place."

Axioms are held to be self-evident, or in the case of math taken as a foundational principle. Axioms can't be questioned, they can only be accepted or rejected because they're the basis for everything that comes after.
I understand that even though I'm not a mathematician. I study semantics particular to psycholinguistics. So, for me axioms exist in semantical frameworks constructed using true dichotomies that I can safely reason upon through both induction and deduction.
Circular justification isn't always incorrect, there are some things(such as inductive reasoning) that require circular justification to operate.
Sure. But any sound reasoning would establish an equilibrium. For example, I wouldn't trust in ignorance.
Who defined it as such? You're simply making an assertion, not an argument.
The sentiment 'Trustworthy' is contained in the term God. God = Eternal power = Has no beginning and no end = Everlasting = Source of the energy that formed all things = Real = Reality =Truth = Trustworthy.

The sentiments in these dichotomies are relative to God --> True/false, Knowledge/ignorance, Honesty/dishonesty, Moral/immoral, Faithful/faithless, Compassionate/uncompassionate, Reasonable/unreasonable, Heartful/heartless, Kindness/unkindness, Merciful/merciless, Goodness/wickedness, Gracious/disgraceful.

Motives don't change facts, or factual status.
But motives are a fact of reality and can be observed.

Facts to me are dictated by reality, not imagined. Subsequently, IF someone in reality lied so as to deceive and no one found out, it would still qualify as a fact of reality that the person lied with a motive to deceive even IF no one saw it.

IF someone believed a lie and then reasoned upon it, their conclusiongs will contain a deviance from the truth which will be reflected in their actions.

No, I'm not saying we must question everything. I'm stating that the only way to avoid radical skepticism is by appealing to one of the insufficient prongs of the trilemma, you've made it clear which prong you prefer but seem to completely miss the issue with it.
I don't know what issue you expect me to find with the trilemma. The term skepticism falls in line under the term 'distrust' which is the negative in this objectively true dichotomy Trust/distrust. Objectively skepticism/cynicism would point to the Eternal in its denial thereof. Subjectively, skepticism is necessary to not be fooled into believing something that isn't true.
 
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Fervent

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It is astute of you to notice that it was probably my question to another poster that was the impetus to rephrase the original question into a simpler form. That part of your assessment, I am forced to agree with.

As I understand it, to write a workable algorithm one has to ask the right questions.

So, likewise, while my turn of the question grossly deviated from the authors original intent, it's not like I didn't see there was more than one inference that could be drawn from the original format which was designed to be rhetorical.

That observation was included in my initial response -->"If I say yes, would you believe me?" -> Indicates I knew the poster anticipated a no response -> and that "Yes" was not the answer he was anticipating-> which is why I also provided a qualifier ---> "Yes, I do think people must question their beliefs on this forum -> whenever correction is taking place."
True enough
I understand that even though I'm not a mathematician. I study semantics particular to psycholinguistics. So, for me axioms exist in semantical frameworks constructed using true dichotomies that I can safely reason upon through both induction and deduction.
This sounds like gobbledy gook.
Sure. But any sound reasoning would establish an equilibrium. For example, I wouldn't trust in ignorance.
Equilibrium? What does that mean in the context of the circular justification needed to engage with inductive reasoning?
The sentiment 'Trustworthy' is contained in the term God. God = Eternal power = Has no beginning and no end = Everlasting = Source of the energy that formed all things = Real = Reality =Truth = Trustworthy.
So you're saying all of those things are tautological?
The sentiments in these dichotomies are relative to God --> True/false, Knowledge/ignorance, Honesty/dishonesty, Moral/immoral, Faithful/faithless, Compassionate/uncompassionate, Reasonable/unreasonable, Heartful/heartless, Kindness/unkindness, Merciful/merciless, Goodness/wickedness, Gracious/disgraceful.
Ok?
But motives are a fact of reality and can be observed.
Observed by who?
Facts to me are dictated by reality, not imagined. Subsequently, IF someone in reality lied so as to deceive and no one found out, it would still qualify as a fact of reality that the person lied with a motive to deceive even IF no one saw it.
Sure, but our perception of that reality is skewed by our point of view. My earlier example of sight remains a good example, since our vision is corrected(inverted and details filled in) compared to the stimuli the eyes respond to.
IF someone believed a lie and then reasoned upon it, their conclusiongs will contain a deviance from the truth which will be reflected in their actions.

I don't know what issue you expect me to find with the trilemma. The term skepticism falls in line under the term 'distrust' which is the negative in this objectively true dichotomy Trust/distrust. Objectively skepticism/cynicism would point to the Eternal in its denial thereof. Subjectively, skepticism is necessary to not be fooled into believing something that isn't true.
I don't expect you to find any issue, I keep bringing it up in reference to your dogmatic approach to knowledge. Philosophical skepticism has nothing to do with trust/distrust, since it is a means to bring us to the end of ourselves; which is often required before we can see God.
 
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