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Proof that The Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls of Revelation are Happening Concurrently

Garrett.theo

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Thanks for your opinion on that, but you seem to have the impression that you're stating facts here and thinking that you're my teacher about these things. No. I am fully convinced that not just the trumpets and vials are parallel, but the seals, also. For example, it fits with my Amillennial view that it talks about a little season of time being left after the fifth seal is opened because I believe Satan's little season begins at that point. I see the description of the fifth trumpet with the bottomless pit being opened at that point, which lines up with Satan being loosed from the bottomless pit, in my opinion. So, again, thanks for sharing your opinions, but I don't really care for how you are talking as if I'm your student and you're my teacher.

I don't view myself as your teacher, nor do I view you as my student. The reality is that everybody is everybody's teacher--in that we can all learn from one another. I browse and read a lot of the threads/posts here on these sub-forums and I regularly see discussions derail and people belittling one another. As a result, the opportunity for edification becomes nearly nonexistent.

My desire is for people to grow in their understanding of scripture, which is why I aim to steer-clear of that bad behavior and approach topics with scripture and wisdom (i.e., intellect--representing the correct use of knowledge). Naturally, it makes sense then, that when I'm confronted with opposing ideas or false narratives, I'd challenge those arguments intellectually.

I'm sorry if my responses made you feel belittled, that's never my intention. Nonetheless, I'm not going to change my vernacular or approach in my discussions with people on this sub forum as that would be inauthentic of me.
 
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Douggg

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Technically, you're right that you didn't say the seventh seal is opened before the other six seals, because you actually have it displayed in your chart that it is opened during the middle of the second seal--thus being opened before the third, forth, fifth, and sixth seals!
Garrett, you are talking about the seals being opened. Which, differently, I am charting the seal events once each seal is opened.

I re-did the chart and added the word "events" below each seal word, to avoid that confusing. So here is the updated chart....

the seven seals g.jpg
 
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Douggg

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Thanks for the suggestion, I will look into Corel Paintshop. I'm very picky when it comes to vector-based graphic design programs
I have been using Corel Paintshop for many, many years. As with all graphics programs, there is a learning curve. It is mostly about making "layers" which you can move around, manipulate, stack on top each other, and eventually save as a JPEG file, which you can easily post in a discussion forum thread.

Corel Paintshop Pro 2023 Ultimate
 
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Garrett.theo

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Garrett, you are talking about the seals being opened. Which, differently, I am charting the seal events once each seal is opened.

I re-did the chart and added the word "events" below each seal word, to avoid that confusing. So here is the updated chart....

View attachment 368299

We're simply going to have to agree to disagree. But thanks for sharing your charts on end-time events--there were some I haven't seen before!



Since I've begun to look into vector-based graphic design software again, I'll make sure that Corel Paintshop is on my list. One thing's for certain, I like the idea of owning it outright and not having to pay for a subscription!
 
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Douggg

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Since I've begun to look into vector-based graphic design software again, I'll make sure that Corel Paintshop is on my list. One thing's for certain, I like the idea of owning it outright and not having to pay for a subscription!
Yes, once you buy it, there are no subscription fees.

If you get a Corel Paintshop program, let me know. I may be able to give you some pointers that will speed up the learning curve.
 
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Douggg

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We're simply going to have to agree to disagree. But thanks for sharing your charts on end-time events--there were some I haven't seen before!
Here is another chart I made years ago, that has all of the horsemen on it and time frames. I call the chart, the Seven Years Chart.

Just follow the red line, beginning in the upper left corner, to the end in the lower right hand corner.

The 7 years 2.jpg
 
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tranquil

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In a previous thread of mine (More Proof of a Post-Tribulation Rapture [Post #1]) I not only demonstrated how the seventh trumpet and bowl are concurrent events, but I also used that information to prove that the rapture of believers takes place at the end of The Great Tribulation--when Jesus returns! While it was helpful in piecing together some of the order of end-time events, I figured this connection wouldn't be complete unless I also demonstrated that the previous six trumpets and bowls are connected concurrently, as well.

With the previous thread having our baseline logic for connecting the seventh trumpet and bowl, it makes sense then that we should examine their previous counterparts with an open mind that they, too, may also be concurrent! It helps to view these visions side-by-side while examining their text, so below I created a table doing just that. Additionally, to make things easier, I even included some highlights for emphasis on important areas.

Here, we'll see that the red text shows us how these visions are connected, while the blue text highlights areas that seem contradictory.

Trumpets​
Bowls​
“The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,… Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.– Revelation 11:15,19​
“The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake… From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people.” – Revelation 16:17-18,21​
“The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, ‘Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.’ And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.– Revelation 9:13-15​
“The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. – Revelation 16:12-14​
“The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and… The sun and sky were darkenedlocusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes.” – Revelation 9:1-5​
“The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony…” – Revelation 16:10​
“The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.” – Revelation 8:12​
“The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire.” – Revelation 16:8​
“The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star… fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of waterA third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.” – Revelation 8:10-11​
“The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. – Revelation 16:4​
“The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. – Revelation 8:8-9​
“The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died. – Revelation 16:3​
“The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. – Revelation 8:7​
“The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.” – Revelation 16:2​


Understandably, most people separate these judgements as being unrelated to one another due to the details highlighted in blue. But what if the blue text has a different purpose than just highlighting details that seem contradictory to each other when these visions are cross-analyzed?

If you look back at the fifth judgment in the series, we learn that when we line these visions up sequentially, the details of one are there to compliment the other. Which, in turn, creates a fuller picture to demonstrate what's happening. With this in mind, it would make sense then to determine that the reason why there is a difference of accounts between these visions is because it's there to emphasize a difference of perspective! This is the only logical reason as to why these visions would be concurrent yet expound on contrasting details.

But what perspective would that be, and what about the fact that the trumpets use the term "a third" to describe the effects of the plagues while the bowls describe their effect to the complete/full extent?

The answer to both of these questions can be found in Revelation 12:7–9,4a, which reads:



Here, we see that the term “a third” is used to describe the angels who followed Satan and fought against God’s divine will. So, with this in mind, when we see the same terminology used across the trumpets, what we’re being told is that these judgments are only affecting the wicked, while in contrast, God’s people are protected!

With this passage providing both biblical and logical reasoning as to how these visions are sequentially concurrent yet display signs that they're disjoint in nature, we learn that the trumpets show us the end-time plagues (i.e., God's wrath) from the perspective of the righteous, while the bowls show it to us from the perspective of the wicked.

As a result, we also learn that the bowls of God's wrath represent (or depict) God’s judgment on the wicked, while the trumpets represent (or depict) God’s divine protection for His people! Thus, keeping with scripture that states:
The Trumpets are distinct and occur before the 7 bowls of wrath. In general, Revelation proceeds in sequential order.

Regarding the 'third portion' of the first four Trumpets. You rightly connect the wicked being killed in conjunction with the third portion, but there are 2 different 'third portion' events:

Zech 13:7 Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the man who is My Companion, declares the LORD of Hosts. Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn My hand against the little ones. 8And in all the land, declares the LORD,
two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver​
and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’ ”​

'2/3' of the land is killed.

1/3 is killed at the 6th Trumpet portion at Rev 9:13-21.

The 2nd 1/3 is killed at the 7th Trumpet with the 7 bowls of wrath.

How are God's people 'refined like silver and tested as gold'? Not with a 'whisked away rapture' - but by having to be confronted with the choosing of the mark of the beast or the refusal thereof (which occurs at the 7th Trumpet).

That is how God's people are 'gathered'.

There are 2 different 'antichrists': Assyria & Tyre. The Assyrian doesn't confirm the covenant, the ruler of Tyre does. Tyre breaks the covenant and hands over the daily sacrifices to the Assyrian.

At the start of the Trumpets, it is the Assyrian who attacks Israel/ Mystery Babylon, then 5 months later places the abomination (at the 6th Trumpet).

This abomination is ended by Tyre 30 days later when he confirms the covenant (Tyre is the mighty angel of Rev 10).

1260 days later, at the 7th Trumpet, Tyre breaks the covenant and subsequently hands over his throne to the Assyrian. Same as in Ezek 44:

6And say to the rebellious house, to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: O house of Israel, enough of all your abominations, 7in admitting foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary, profaning my temple, when you offer to me my food, the fat and the blood. You have broken my covenant, in addition to all your abominations. 8And you have not kept charge of my holy things, but you have set others to keep my charge for you in my sanctuary.​
Tyre, who has control over the saints for 1260 days (same as time, times, half time of Dan 7:25) (same time as 1260 days of the 2 witnesses), then hands over control to the Assyrian who had just placed the abomination 1290 days prior (this happens at the 7th Trumpet).

Roughly speaking, Tyre (the Dan 7 Little Horn) equals the Catholic's 'Great Monarch' & the Assyrian equals Illuminati Freemasonry. It is similar to the dichotomy of left versus right where both sides are evil and justify their moral standings by 'not being the other guy'.

new Jim file.jpg
new Jim file.jpg
 
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Douggg

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The Trumpets are distinct and occur before the 7 bowls of wrath. In general, Revelation proceeds in sequential order.

Regarding the 'third portion' of the first four Trumpets. You rightly connect the wicked being killed in conjunction with the third portion, but there are 2 different 'third portion' events:

Zech 13:7 Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the man who is My Companion, declares the LORD of Hosts. Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn My hand against the little ones. 8And in all the land, declares the LORD,
two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver​
and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’ ”​

'2/3' of the land is killed.

1/3 is killed at the 6th Trumpet portion at Rev 9:13-21.

The 2nd 1/3 is killed at the 7th Trumpet with the 7 bowls of wrath.

How are God's people 'refined like silver and tested as gold'? Not with a 'whisked away rapture' - but by having to be confronted with the choosing of the mark of the beast or the refusal thereof (which occurs at the 7th Trumpet).

That is how God's people are 'gathered'.

There are 2 different 'antichrists': Assyria & Tyre. The Assyrian doesn't confirm the covenant, the ruler of Tyre does. Tyre breaks the covenant and hands over the daily sacrifices to the Assyrian.

At the start of the Trumpets, it is the Assyrian who attacks Israel/ Mystery Babylon, then 5 months later places the abomination (at the 6th Trumpet).

This abomination is ended by Tyre 30 days later when he confirms the covenant (Tyre is the mighty angel of Rev 10).

1260 days later, at the 7th Trumpet, Tyre breaks the covenant and subsequently hands over his throne to the Assyrian. Same as in Ezek 44:

6And say to the rebellious house, to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: O house of Israel, enough of all your abominations, 7in admitting foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary, profaning my temple, when you offer to me my food, the fat and the blood. You have broken my covenant, in addition to all your abominations. 8And you have not kept charge of my holy things, but you have set others to keep my charge for you in my sanctuary.​
Tyre, who has control over the saints for 1260 days (same as time, times, half time of Dan 7:25) (same time as 1260 days of the 2 witnesses), then hands over control to the Assyrian who had just placed the abomination 1290 days prior (this happens at the 7th Trumpet).

Roughly speaking, Tyre (the Dan 7 Little Horn) equals the Catholic's 'Great Monarch' & the Assyrian equals Illuminati Freemasonry. It is similar to the dichotomy of left versus right where both sides are evil and justify their moral standings by 'not being the other guy'.

View attachment 368317View attachment 368317
tranquil,

Instead of what you posted, make charts that have a clear beginning and a clear ending. Such as beginning with Daniel 9:27, or day 1, and ending with Jesus's return day. The end of the chart should always be Jesus's return day.

Such as...

7 years Revelation 12.jpg



2300 days 3.jpg
 
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Garrett.theo

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The Trumpets are distinct and occur before the 7 bowls of wrath. In general, Revelation proceeds in sequential order.

Regarding the 'third portion' of the first four Trumpets. You rightly connect the wicked being killed in conjunction with the third portion, but there are 2 different 'third portion' events:

Zech 13:7 Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the man who is My Companion, declares the LORD of Hosts. Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn My hand against the little ones. 8And in all the land, declares the LORD,
two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver​
and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’ ”​

'2/3' of the land is killed.

1/3 is killed at the 6th Trumpet portion at Rev 9:13-21.

The 2nd 1/3 is killed at the 7th Trumpet with the 7 bowls of wrath.

How are God's people 'refined like silver and tested as gold'? Not with a 'whisked away rapture' - but by having to be confronted with the choosing of the mark of the beast or the refusal thereof (which occurs at the 7th Trumpet).

That is how God's people are 'gathered'.

There are 2 different 'antichrists': Assyria & Tyre. The Assyrian doesn't confirm the covenant, the ruler of Tyre does. Tyre breaks the covenant and hands over the daily sacrifices to the Assyrian.

At the start of the Trumpets, it is the Assyrian who attacks Israel/ Mystery Babylon, then 5 months later places the abomination (at the 6th Trumpet).

This abomination is ended by Tyre 30 days later when he confirms the covenant (Tyre is the mighty angel of Rev 10).

1260 days later, at the 7th Trumpet, Tyre breaks the covenant and subsequently hands over his throne to the Assyrian. Same as in Ezek 44:

6And say to the rebellious house, to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: O house of Israel, enough of all your abominations, 7in admitting foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary, profaning my temple, when you offer to me my food, the fat and the blood. You have broken my covenant, in addition to all your abominations. 8And you have not kept charge of my holy things, but you have set others to keep my charge for you in my sanctuary.​
Tyre, who has control over the saints for 1260 days (same as time, times, half time of Dan 7:25) (same time as 1260 days of the 2 witnesses), then hands over control to the Assyrian who had just placed the abomination 1290 days prior (this happens at the 7th Trumpet).

Roughly speaking, Tyre (the Dan 7 Little Horn) equals the Catholic's 'Great Monarch' & the Assyrian equals Illuminati Freemasonry. It is similar to the dichotomy of left versus right where both sides are evil and justify their moral standings by 'not being the other guy'.

View attachment 368317View attachment 368317


We're able to confidently conclude that the trumpets and bowls of Revelation are sequentially concurrent with one another on the basis of the deductive reasoning used to connect them!

Deductive reasoning is a logical process where you start with a general statement or premise and then draw a specific conclusion based on that premise. It moves from the general to the particular, guaranteeing that if the premises are true, the conclusion must also be true.

As it relates to this study, our premise is that the trumpets and bowls are happening concurrently with one another which is based on the fact that each sequential vision shares patterned language with their counterpart, as highlighted in red in post #1 of this thread. If this is the case, then we must ask ourselves, why then do their accounts differ at times, as highlighted in blue in post #1 of this thread?

Upon closer inspection (e.g., the fifth plague) we learn that the details of one vision are there to expound on the details of the other when they're aligned sequentially. This not only further supports the premise that the trumpets and bowls are happening concurrently, but it helps us to begin to make sense of why these set of visions differ in details from one another. The only reasonable answer would be that these two sets of visions are describing details from two different perspectives!

Now, what would these two perspectives be? For one, we know that in the end-times there are only two groups of people. Those who have the mark of the Beast (i.e., the wicked) and those who belong to God (i.e., the righteous). We also know that as God pours out His wrath on the wicked, His people are miraculously protected! So, if these set of visions are, in fact, connected it would make sense that these elements are seen between them!

It isn't until we learn from Revelation 12:7–9,4a that the term "a third" is there to refer to those who are opposed to God and follow after Satan. When we apply this understanding to the trumpets we learn that when we see these plagues are only affecting "a third" of the earth, what we're being told is that they're are only affecting the wicked while in contrast God's people are protected. As a result, the trumpets depict the end-time plagues from the perspective of the righteous, highlighting God's protection for His people. While the bowls depict the end-time plagues from the perspective of the wicked, as demonstrated by the full/whole expression of the effectiveness of the plagues.
 
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truthuprootsevil

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I believe we are close to the return of Christ, closer than we think.

I believe the seven trumpets, the seven seals, the seven bowls, the seven veils, work together simultaneously.

I believe that in each, the six angel has sounded, and living on this planet is and will continue to go from bad to worse.

I see all the events written of unfolding. The Bible doesn't tell us the amount of time between the opening or soundings of the events, but it's been over 2,000 years to get to this point, so how long will we be living in the openings and soundings of the six angels?
 
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Fisherking

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Understandably, most people separate these judgements as being unrelated to one another due to the details highlighted in blue. But what if the blue text has a different purpose than just highlighting details that seem contradictory to each other when these visions are cross-analyzed?
You can't get the simple rapture timing correct, so I had little hope on this more complex issue tbh.

The Seals ARE NOT JUDGMENTS, why can't modern day people understand metaphors? God's Wrath is SEALED UP like a Message by a King was SEALED UP with three wax signet ring seals. no ne could read it until ALL THREE WAX SEALS were broken !! Get that Metaphor now guys?

Seals is God way of Jesus telling us I am opening up God's soon to come Wrath, but only when the 7th Seal is opened will that Wrath fall. Jesus, in heaven, amongst the pre trib. raptured church, open these seals, but its just metaphoric in nature. The first 5 tell about the Anti-Christ/Beasts 42 month reign of terror, he is also God's Wrath according to Isaiah 10:5-6. The 6th Seal is Jesus foretelling about God's 42 months of wrath that starts with the 1st Trump, hence the 7th seal is over in Rev. 8. In Rev. 7 that is the 1/3 of Israel who repents fleeing Judea, not 144,000. If 10 can mean the whole church as in 10 brides then 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 can mean Fulness x Completeness or All Israel who repent, the 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9.

The 7th Seal brings 30 minutes of Silence, but why? Well, why is there silence at funerals? It repented God when He flooded the earth. This shows the angels of heaven take NO JOY in this coming Judgment. Then the Wrath or Judgment starts, and it is ONLY SEVEN (7) Trumpet Judgments, 14 nor 21 is a significant number with God but 7 = Divine Completeness.

Rev. 8:13 tells us VERY CLEARLY, the final three Trumps are the Three Woes !! Thus Trumps 1-4 is ONE ASTEROID IMPACT told in four phases but ONE EVENT. Fire burns trees in Trump #1 because as it breaks apart trees burn before the IMPACT. Trump #2 is THE IMPACT. Trump #3 is the FALLOUT that poisons the Fresh Waters in 1/3 of the World, the 1/3 designates the NEW WORLD is what is hit. Trump #4 is the Smoke turning the Sun and Moo DARK and FULFILLING the 6th Seal "Prophetic Uttering" by Jesus.

Trump #5 = the 1st Woe and lasts 5 months. Trump #6 = the 2nd Woe.

Trump #7 = the 3rd Woe, and all 7 Vials ARE the Third Woe. So, all of God's Wrath comes from the 7 Trumpet Judgments.
 
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Garrett.theo

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You can't get the simple rapture timing correct, so I had little hope on this more complex issue tbh.

The Seals ARE NOT JUDGMENTS, why can't modern day people understand metaphors? God's Wrath is SEALED UP like a Message by a King was SEALED UP with three wax signet ring seals. no ne could read it until ALL THREE WAX SEALS were broken !! Get that Metaphor now guys?

Seals is God way of Jesus telling us I am opening up God's soon to come Wrath, but only when the 7th Seal is opened will that Wrath fall. Jesus, in heaven, amongst the pre trib. raptured church, open these seals, but its just metaphoric in nature. The first 5 tell about the Anti-Christ/Beasts 42 month reign of terror, he is also God's Wrath according to Isaiah 10:5-6. The 6th Seal is Jesus foretelling about God's 42 months of wrath that starts with the 1st Trump, hence the 7th seal is over in Rev. 8. In Rev. 7 that is the 1/3 of Israel who repents fleeing Judea, not 144,000. If 10 can mean the whole church as in 10 brides then 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 can mean Fulness x Completeness or All Israel who repent, the 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9.

The 7th Seal brings 30 minutes of Silence, but why? Well, why is there silence at funerals? It repented God when He flooded the earth. This shows the angels of heaven take NO JOY in this coming Judgment. Then the Wrath or Judgment starts, and it is ONLY SEVEN (7) Trumpet Judgments, 14 nor 21 is a significant number with God but 7 = Divine Completeness.

Rev. 8:13 tells us VERY CLEARLY, the final three Trumps are the Three Woes !! Thus Trumps 1-4 is ONE ASTEROID IMPACT told in four phases but ONE EVENT. Fire burns trees in Trump #1 because as it breaks apart trees burn before the IMPACT. Trump #2 is THE IMPACT. Trump #3 is the FALLOUT that poisons the Fresh Waters in 1/3 of the World, the 1/3 designates the NEW WORLD is what is hit. Trump #4 is the Smoke turning the Sun and Moo DARK and FULFILLING the 6th Seal "Prophetic Uttering" by Jesus.

Trump #5 = the 1st Woe and lasts 5 months. Trump #6 = the 2nd Woe.

Trump #7 = the 3rd Woe, and all 7 Vials ARE the Third Woe. So, all of God's Wrath comes from the 7 Trumpet Judgments.

I've covered the timing of the rapture in a separate thread called: More Proof of a Post-Tribulation Rapture. In it I use scripture to prove that the rapture of believers takes place at the return of The Lord. Posts #1 and #8 in that thread demonstrate that information the best. But to illustrate that point further, I'll show you from another perspective.

As I'm sure you're already aware the word "rapture" comes from the Latin translation of the term "caught up" found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In that passage Paul was writing to the Thessalonians about the resurrection of righteous to eternal life. Similarly, Paul also wrote to the Corinthians about the same thing in 1 Corinthians 15, as shown below:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17​
1 Corinthians 15:51–52​
"For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”

Here we see that Paul, in both letters, mentions a trumpet that will sound which coincides with God's people being raised/caught up, and that not all Christians will die before Christ returns--highlighted respectively. These correlations are important for two primary reasons.
  1. They demonstrate that the event of the "rapture" coincides with the sound of "a trumpet."
  2. They prove that Christians are, in fact, alive when Jesus returns. Which tells us that Christians will certainly go through the Great Tribulation!

Now, as I'm sure you're also aware, we get the term "Tribulation" and "Great Tribulation" from Jesus' discussion with his disciples about the end of the age in Matthew 24. In that same passage Jesus himself tells us exactly when the gathering (i.e., rapture) of His people is going to take place! It reads:

"'Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.'" -- Matthew 24:29-31

When we analyze this passage along side Paul's letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians, we'll notice that they all depict the sound of a trumpet corresponding with the "gathering," "raising," or "catching up," of God's people! As a result, we see that Jesus clearly states that the rapture happens "immediately after the tribulation" and at his return!

In fact, this conclusion is further solidified by Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians, which I quoted earlier. If you remember, Paul wrote to the Thessalonians that not all believers will die before the return of The Lord. He then went on to describe Christ's return, saying:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." -- 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Here we see that the very passage where we get the term "rapture" from tells us it takes place at the return of The Lord!



To respond to your allegation, I never claimed that the seals are judgments, neither did I make mention as to what I believed the 3 woes are. Because of this, I won't entertain the notion of your arguments, especially since I don't want to derail too much from the overall topic of this thread.
 
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Douggg

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@Garrett.theo

The word "trumpet" is found in 60 instances in the kjv bible. "trumpet" is used when some sort of action is to take place.

 
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Fisherking

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I've covered the timing of the rapture in a separate thread called: More Proof of a Post-Tribulation Rapture. In it I use scripture to prove that the rapture of believers takes place at the return of The Lord. Posts #1 and #8 in that thread demonstrate that information the best. But to illustrate that point further, I'll show you from another perspective.

As I'm sure you're already aware the word "rapture" comes from the Latin translation of the term "caught up" found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In that passage Paul was writing to the Thessalonians about the resurrection of righteous to eternal life. Similarly, Paul also wrote to the Corinthians about the same thing in 1 Corinthians 15, as shown below:

"For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."
“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”
You can not prove that which is not true, what you guys do is explain to us why you are in error. I will prove this below. This is simple stuff, I understand what the 1335, 1290 and 1260 stand for, who the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17 is (Apollyon ) and that unlike Rev. 12 (Red Dragon with horns designating he's over the whole world by being on the 7 Heads) and 13 (Anti-Christ designated as such by the 10 crowns on the 10 horns or Complete E.U. as 10 = Completion) the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast has NO CROWNS on the 7 Heads nor 10 Horns, GO LOOK. These things are complex, the Raptures timing is not, but I will play along as long as you are making an honest effort and a sensible effort to discuss things cordially.

Here we see that Paul, in both letters, mentions a trumpet that will sound which coincides with God's people being raised/caught up, and that not all Christians will die before Christ returns--highlighted respectively. These correlations are important for two primary reasons.
  1. They demonstrate that the event of the "rapture" coincides with the sound of "a trumpet."
  2. They prove that Christians are, in fact, alive when Jesus returns. Which tells us that Christians will certainly go through the Great Tribulation!
The Trumpet is key to understanding THE TIMING, but do you even understand why on this point?

God mandated Israel to observe 7 Feasts, which all point to Jesus, however Israel; did not now that then, nor many Jews do not even today realize this. Jesus has to fulfill all 7 Feasts himself. He Fulfilled the Passover to the day and hour, but look at all 7 as a String Event, which has to come true in perfect order.

Jesus Fulfills the Three Spring Feasts in his first Advent as the Meek Lamb led to Slaughter

1). Passover (Jesus is the Passover Blood of the whole world)
2). Unleavened Bread (Jesus knew no sin he himself was unleavened)
3.) First-fruits (Jesus was the first-fruits of the dead)


The Summer Harvest or Church Age is the Feast of Weeks NOTICE its all alone on a calendar like the Church Age is all alone unto itself !!

4.) Feast of Weeks/the Harvest Season/the Church Age ( Jesus is currently fulfilling this HARVEST SEASON, get it now? He is the head, we are the body (Church means body) he is our high priest in heaven, we are harvesting souls for God/Jesus as we speak, this is the Feast of Weeks/Harvest/Church Age. Now WHAT ALWAYS ENDED the Harvest Season? The Feast of Trumps, get it? The LAST TRUMP? Jesus sounds as a Trump in Rev. 4:1 is THE RAPTURE, which comes after the THINGS WHICH ARE (Rev. 2 & 3) and is called in Rev. 4:1 the THINGS WHICH WILL BE HEREAFTER (the 70th week events). Each Feast MUST BE FULFILLED in its order !! The Raptured Church MUST HAPPEN before the 70th week, when God deals with Israel and the 1/3 Repents at the Feast of Atonement.

The Fall Feasts Jesus will fulfill after he raptures the Church Pre Trib. we are his bride, the bride and groom spend 7 days (years) in the Fathers house.

5.) Feast of Trumps ( This will end the Church Age Harvest, you have to be able to see God's truths when presented or else you just do not want to see it. Do you know why Jesus stated no man knows the DAY NOR HOUR? Because he is going to one day return on the Feast of Trumps to rapture his Church/Bride BEFORE the 70th week Jews ATONE. You see, only God knew the Moons Phases, thus they were Moeds or Appointed Times of God. No one could know the exact day nor hour a New Moon would come in. So, Jesus is telling us he's going to be sent back on a Feast of Trumps, but only when God the Father says go. When the New Moon came in they commenced to blowing the Trumps, they blew them in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the LAST TRUMP (100th Trump) it blew longer and louder than all the other Trumps and that OFFICALLY ENDED the Harvest Season (THNK Church Age Ends).

6.) Feast of Atonement (Who has to repent before the 70th week can end? Israel must ATONE and they do just before the DOTL/God's Wrath)

7.) Feast of Tabernacles (to tabernacle with God means to DWELL with God. Jesus is God and he will rule with Israel from Jerusalem for 1000 years during the Kingdom Age.


So, this LAST TRUMP you speak of happens BEFORE the 70th week, it ENDS the Church Age Harvest. The 70th week harvest comes from an Angel Preaching see Rev. 14:6.

We have to understand the deeper things.

Now, as I'm sure you're also aware, we get the term "Tribulation" and "Great Tribulation" from Jesus' discussion with his disciples about the end of the age in Matthew 24. In that same passage Jesus himself tells us exactly when the gathering (i.e., rapture) of His people is going to take place! It reads:


Again, you misconstrue the facts. Zechariah 14:1-2 has the exact same 1260 day JUMP unto vs. 3 as Matthew 24:29 and 30 has. It wouldn't copy so I will copy and paste below:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days(COME as seen in Revelation 8, the Fourth Trump) shall the sun be darkened,(Rev 8) and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

There is a 1260 day JUMP HERE...........THINK MAN...........the 5th Trump lasts for at least 5 months by itself, think things through !!

30 And then(1260 days AFTER God's Wrath/Tribulation falls on Mankind via the Trumpet Judgments STARTING and thus the Sun & Moon GOES DARK in Trump #4)shall appear the sign of the Son of man (1260 days AFTER the DOTL hits via an Asteroid Impact in Rev. 8) in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now look at Zech. 13:8-9 the 1/3 Repent and guess what, the very next vs. shows God's Wrath falling in Zech. 14:1-2 and it JUMPS 1260 days also IN VS. 3, the bible can not have every detail, especially prophesy or it would have taken a library to hold all the books.

Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken(The Ant-Christ conquers Israel and rules how long? 1260 days right? Boom, of course he does), and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations(1260 DAYS LATER, we do not get the minutia in Prophetic Lingo), as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Whenever someone points out Matt. 24:29-30 and does not understand vs. 29 is the Rev. 8 Trumpets 1-4 hitting the earth AND that Trump #5 lasts for at least 5 months, and thus vs. 30 is merely a 1260 day JUMP then I know they are not as studied in scriptures as they ought to be and they are making egregious errors in TIMING.
 
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Garrett.theo

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You can not prove that which is not true, what you guys do is explain to us why you are in error. I will prove this below. This is simple stuff, I understand what the 1335, 1290 and 1260 stand for, who the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17 is (Apollyon ) and that unlike Rev. 12 (Red Dragon with horns designating he's over the whole world by being on the 7 Heads) and 13 (Anti-Christ designated as such by the 10 crowns on the 10 horns or Complete E.U. as 10 = Completion) the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast has NO CROWNS on the 7 Heads nor 10 Horns, GO LOOK. These things are complex, the Raptures timing is not, but I will play along as long as you are making an honest effort and a sensible effort to discuss things cordially.


The Trumpet is key to understanding THE TIMING, but do you even understand why on this point?

God mandated Israel to observe 7 Feasts, which all point to Jesus, however Israel; did not now that then, nor many Jews do not even today realize this. Jesus has to fulfill all 7 Feasts himself. He Fulfilled the Passover to the day and hour, but look at all 7 as a String Event, which has to come true in perfect order.

Jesus Fulfills the Three Spring Feasts in his first Advent as the Meek Lamb led to Slaughter

1). Passover (Jesus is the Passover Blood of the whole world)
2). Unleavened Bread (Jesus knew no sin he himself was unleavened)
3.) First-fruits (Jesus was the first-fruits of the dead)


The Summer Harvest or Church Age is the Feast of Weeks NOTICE its all alone on a calendar like the Church Age is all alone unto itself !!

4.) Feast of Weeks/the Harvest Season/the Church Age ( Jesus is currently fulfilling this HARVEST SEASON, get it now? He is the head, we are the body (Church means body) he is our high priest in heaven, we are harvesting souls for God/Jesus as we speak, this is the Feast of Weeks/Harvest/Church Age. Now WHAT ALWAYS ENDED the Harvest Season? The Feast of Trumps, get it? The LAST TRUMP? Jesus sounds as a Trump in Rev. 4:1 is THE RAPTURE, which comes after the THINGS WHICH ARE (Rev. 2 & 3) and is called in Rev. 4:1 the THINGS WHICH WILL BE HEREAFTER (the 70th week events). Each Feast MUST BE FULFILLED in its order !! The Raptured Church MUST HAPPEN before the 70th week, when God deals with Israel and the 1/3 Repents at the Feast of Atonement.

The Fall Feasts Jesus will fulfill after he raptures the Church Pre Trib. we are his bride, the bride and groom spend 7 days (years) in the Fathers house.

5.) Feast of Trumps ( This will end the Church Age Harvest, you have to be able to see God's truths when presented or else you just do not want to see it. Do you know why Jesus stated no man knows the DAY NOR HOUR? Because he is going to one day return on the Feast of Trumps to rapture his Church/Bride BEFORE the 70th week Jews ATONE. You see, only God knew the Moons Phases, thus they were Moeds or Appointed Times of God. No one could know the exact day nor hour a New Moon would come in. So, Jesus is telling us he's going to be sent back on a Feast of Trumps, but only when God the Father says go. When the New Moon came in they commenced to blowing the Trumps, they blew them in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the LAST TRUMP (100th Trump) it blew longer and louder than all the other Trumps and that OFFICALLY ENDED the Harvest Season (THNK Church Age Ends).

6.) Feast of Atonement (Who has to repent before the 70th week can end? Israel must ATONE and they do just before the DOTL/God's Wrath)

7.) Feast of Tabernacles (to tabernacle with God means to DWELL with God. Jesus is God and he will rule with Israel from Jerusalem for 1000 years during the Kingdom Age.


So, this LAST TRUMP you speak of happens BEFORE the 70th week, it ENDS the Church Age Harvest. The 70th week harvest comes from an Angel Preaching see Rev. 14:6.

We have to understand the deeper things.




Again, you misconstrue the facts. Zechariah 14:1-2 has the exact same 1260 day JUMP unto vs. 3 as Matthew 24:29 and 30 has. It wouldn't copy so I will copy and paste below:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days(COME as seen in Revelation 8, the Fourth Trump) shall the sun be darkened,(Rev 8) and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

There is a 1260 day JUMP HERE...........THINK MAN...........the 5th Trump lasts for at least 5 months by itself, think things through !!

30 And then(1260 days AFTER God's Wrath/Tribulation falls on Mankind via the Trumpet Judgments STARTING and thus the Sun & Moon GOES DARK in Trump #4)shall appear the sign of the Son of man (1260 days AFTER the DOTL hits via an Asteroid Impact in Rev. 8) in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now look at Zech. 13:8-9 the 1/3 Repent and guess what, the very next vs. shows God's Wrath falling in Zech. 14:1-2 and it JUMPS 1260 days also IN VS. 3, the bible can not have every detail, especially prophesy or it would have taken a library to hold all the books.

Zech. 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken(The Ant-Christ conquers Israel and rules how long? 1260 days right? Boom, of course he does), and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations(1260 DAYS LATER, we do not get the minutia in Prophetic Lingo), as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Whenever someone points out Matt. 24:29-30 and does not understand vs. 29 is the Rev. 8 Trumpets 1-4 hitting the earth AND that Trump #5 lasts for at least 5 months, and thus vs. 30 is merely a 1260 day JUMP then I know they are not as studied in scriptures as they ought to be and they are making egregious errors in TIMING.

I read your post and while you clearly hold strong feelings about your beliefs, much of what you said has no basis in scripture whatsoever. You are right about one thing, though, "the trumpet is key to understanding the timing" of the rapture. The reason why this is, is because 1 Corinthians 15:51–52 tells us that:

“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”

As shown in my pervious post (#32), this passage corresponds to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, where we get the term "rapture" from. I bring up this point because it corresponds to the next fact.

Now, as I'm sure you're aware, the 7th bowl marks the end of the tribulation and the return of The Lord. The reason why we know this is true is because of the phrase "flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder," which is found in Revelation 16:17-18. That passage tells us:

"The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake."

It's this same terminology that is used to describe Jesus on a throne in Heaven, as written in Revelation 4 which reads:

“… there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder…In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures…Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.’”
— Revelation 4:2b-5a,6a,9–11

Being that this same terminology which is used to describe Jesus' physical appearance is found in the 7th trumpet (i.e., the last trumpet in the series mentioned in Revelation), it's a clue that not only the 7th bowl and 7th trumpet are happening concurrently, but it's further proof that the rapture takes place after the tribulation and at the return of The Lord! For context, here's that very verse:

"The seventh angel sounded his trumpet... and there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm." -- Revelation 11:15a,19b



You liken the feast of trumpets to correspond to the trumpet mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:52, and Matthew 24:31. While this is a interesting and understandable correlation, there is no basis for this in scripture, unlike the conclusion and reasoning I've shown above. Your idea that the rapture will happen on the Feast of Trumpets (i.e., the 1st of Tishrei or September 23rd of any given year) is based on superficial reasoning that Jesus has to fulfill the 7 Jewish feasts himself, with the Feast of Atonement corresponding to the last 7 years before Jesus returns.

It is because you believe that rapture corresponds to the Feast of Trumpets, it must therefore be pre-tribulational because you also equate the Feast of Atonement to correspond to the 70th week. This would make for a fun Bible study, but just as I pointed out in my previous post (#32) and earlier in this one, scripture and Jesus himself teach us this isn't true!



Lastly, I noticed that you also equated Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29 with the 4th trumpet mentioned in Revelation 8:12. While on the surface these passages seem to correspond to each other, another look at scripture reveals that Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29-30 actually correspond better to the 6th seal mentioned in Revelation 6:12-17, as shown below:

Matthew 24:29-30​
Revelation 6:12-13,15-17​
“Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ ‘Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.’”
“I watched as he opened the sixth seal… The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, ‘Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?’”

If we were to try to correlate the 4th trumpet with these passages, it would mean that the 4th trumpet is taking place at the return of Jesus as seen in the 6th seal. This wouldn't make sense because that leaves no room left for the 5th and 6th trumpet to occur during the 70th week.



There are a few other errors you've made but since they don't align with the overall topic of this thread, I've decided not to respond to them, as I find doing so would further derail our discussion more than I'd like.
 
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Douggg

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The Trumpets are distinct and occur before the 7 bowls of wrath. In general, Revelation proceeds in sequential order.

Regarding the 'third portion' of the first four Trumpets. You rightly connect the wicked being killed in conjunction with the third portion, but there are 2 different 'third portion' events:

Zech 13:7 Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the man who is My Companion, declares the LORD of Hosts. Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn My hand against the little ones. 8And in all the land, declares the LORD,
two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver​
and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’ ”​

'2/3' of the land is killed.

1/3 is killed at the 6th Trumpet portion at Rev 9:13-21.

The 2nd 1/3 is killed at the 7th Trumpet with the 7 bowls of wrath.

How are God's people 'refined like silver and tested as gold'? Not with a 'whisked away rapture' - but by having to be confronted with the choosing of the mark of the beast or the refusal thereof (which occurs at the 7th Trumpet).

That is how God's people are 'gathered'.

There are 2 different 'antichrists': Assyria & Tyre. The Assyrian doesn't confirm the covenant, the ruler of Tyre does. Tyre breaks the covenant and hands over the daily sacrifices to the Assyrian.

At the start of the Trumpets, it is the Assyrian who attacks Israel/ Mystery Babylon, then 5 months later places the abomination (at the 6th Trumpet).

This abomination is ended by Tyre 30 days later when he confirms the covenant (Tyre is the mighty angel of Rev 10).

1260 days later, at the 7th Trumpet, Tyre breaks the covenant and subsequently hands over his throne to the Assyrian. Same as in Ezek 44:

6And say to the rebellious house, to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: O house of Israel, enough of all your abominations, 7in admitting foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary, profaning my temple, when you offer to me my food, the fat and the blood. You have broken my covenant, in addition to all your abominations. 8And you have not kept charge of my holy things, but you have set others to keep my charge for you in my sanctuary.​
Tyre, who has control over the saints for 1260 days (same as time, times, half time of Dan 7:25) (same time as 1260 days of the 2 witnesses), then hands over control to the Assyrian who had just placed the abomination 1290 days prior (this happens at the 7th Trumpet).

Roughly speaking, Tyre (the Dan 7 Little Horn) equals the Catholic's 'Great Monarch' & the Assyrian equals Illuminati Freemasonry. It is similar to the dichotomy of left versus right where both sides are evil and justify their moral standings by 'not being the other guy'.

View attachment 368317View attachment 368317
tranquil, go back and edit your post. You duplicated the same chart. Delete one of them. Also remake your chart with a clear beginning (day 1 of the 7 years) and a clear ending (day 2520 of the 7 years, the day of Jesus's return.
 
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Fisherking

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I read your post and while you clearly hold strong feelings about your beliefs, much of what you said has no basis in scripture whatsoever. You are right about one thing, though, "the trumpet is key to understanding the timing" of the rapture. The reason why this is, is because 1 Corinthians 15:51–52 tells us that:
I am correct on every point, you are merely deflecting my friend. This is what people who can't rebut do.

As shown in my pervious post (#32), this passage corresponds to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, where we get the term "rapture" from. I bring up this point because it corresponds to the next fact.

Now, as I'm sure you're aware, the 7th bowl marks the end of the tribulation and the return of The Lord. The reason why we know this is true is because of the phrase "flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder," which is found in Revelation 16:17-18. That passage tells us:
We know what Rapture means, it came from the Latin word Raptura and means Seizing, or snatching or carrying away. Jesus snatches us away. Harpazo means the same thing in Greek, so Paul wrote it in Koine Greek, and the translation in Latin means the exact same thing.
It's this same terminology that is used to describe Jesus on a throne in Heaven, as written in Revelation 4 which reads:

Which means nothing, we all know Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God in Heaven, he only comes to earth at the 7th Vial to rule for his 1000 year Kingdom Age. He however harvests the earth 7 years earlier, read Rev. 14:14 Jesus himself from ON A CLOUD sticks in the sickle to harvest the earth. Israel are not part of the bride of Christ, Rev. 14 tells us they have the Fathers name on their foreheads. There were two brides. Jacob had Leah and Rachel, a preferred bride and a forced bride.

You seem to think this is a great point, but it is a very bad point. We say and know Jesus comes fir his bride, us the church, then returns to the Fathers House (Heaven) for 7 years in the marriage chambers. So, we understand we the bride Marry the Lamb(see Rev. 19) then return with Jesus in WHITE LINEN and are a part of his Army. So, of course Jesus is in heaven when the 7th Via is poured out, the 7th Vial comes from the 7th Trump, so there are only 7 Judgments, not 21 nor 14 because the Seals are not even Judgments, they are merely prophesying about the soon to come 7 Trumpet Judgments. The 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe.

Being that this same terminology which is used to describe Jesus' physical appearance is found in the 7th trumpet (i.e., the last trumpet in the series mentioned in Revelation), it's a clue that not only the 7th bowl and 7th trumpet are happening concurrently, but it's further proof that the rapture takes place after the tribulation and at the return of The Lord! For context, here's that very verse:
As I stated above, the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe and emit from the 7th Trump.

You liken the feast of trumpets to correspond to the trumpet mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:52, and Matthew 24:31. While this is a interesting and understandable correlation, there is no basis for this in scripture, unlike the conclusion and reasoning I've shown above. Your idea that the rapture will happen on the Feast of Trumpets (i.e., the 1st of Tishrei or September 23rd of any given year) is based on superficial reasoning that Jesus has to fulfill the 7 Jewish feasts himself, with the Feast of Atonement corresponding to the last 7 years before Jesus returns.
I do not pick out days nor years, just saying that Jesus will return soon on a Feast of Trumps, that is evident via all the facts. Of course Jesus has to fulfill all 7, like he fulfilled the three spring feasts. No, the Feast of Atonement corresponds with the final 1335 days of the 70th week, that is when the Two-witnesses show up. Read Malachi 4:5-6 Elijah will be sent back BEFORE the Day of the Lord (1260 middle of the week event) to turn Israel back unto God. But that happens almost in the middle of the 70th week, just before the 1290 AoD which is not the Anti-Christ, its the False Prophet, a Jewish High Priest in league from afar with the Anti-Christ who will be the European Union President which means the 7 year agreement is really just Israel joining the E.U. Only when Jesus returns at the 7th Vial will Babylon (Satan's Dark Kingdom of Deceiving Mankind on this earth) Fall and Jesus will then reign for 1000 years (fulfilling the Feast of Tabernacles).

It is because you believe that rapture corresponds to the Feast of Trumpets, it must therefore be pre-tribulational because you also equate the Feast of Atonement to correspond to the 70th week. This would make for a fun Bible study, but just as I pointed out in my previous post (#32) and earlier in this one, scripture and Jesus himself teach us this isn't true!
Its because I understand the bible and you have not quite grasped it yet on these things, and that is why I can see what you cant see. But that is OK, that is why we have to put in the grunt work and that is what I have done for 40 years I do not just guess brother.

Lastly, I noticed that you also equated Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29 with the 4th trumpet mentioned in Revelation 8:12. While on the surface these passages seem to correspond to each other, another look at scripture reveals that Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29-30 actually correspond better to the 6th seal mentioned in Revelation 6:12-17, as shown below:
The 6th Seal IS THE FOURTH TRUMP come to pass. The Seals are only Prophetic Lingo !! Jesus FORETELLS two things, the Anti-Christ/Beast/Little Horns life actions in the first 5 seals, he then foretells God' Full Wrath in the 6th Seal, and the 7th Seal opens the Scroll of Wrath, thus Rev. 7 is the 1/3 or 5 million Jews being Sealed or SAVED by God then Protected by God BEFORE His Wrath falls in Rev. 8. (Asteroid Impact) Trumps 1-4 are FOUR PHASES to one asteroid impact. Look it up, google what happens when a large asteroid makes impact. You will be told as it is incoming it will be on fire (no kidding, like a Mountain) and these sulfur balls that destroyed Sodom will fall and burn 1/3 of the Trees (not really 1/3 that is a DESTINATION POINT, the New World is that 1/3). Then in Trump #2 we get the IMPACT the Earth quakes as John describes it etc. Then in Trump #3 we get a poisonous FALL OUT....Of course we would.....that poisons the Fresh Waters in the New World where it hits. Trump #4 is the Smoke getting up into the Jet Steam and botting the Sun & Moon's light out by a 1/3 AND of course the moon will appear to be Blood Red because of all the fires burning on earth, it will have a Red Hue to it.

So, Trump #4 is Seal #6 coming to pass. Seals on a letter for the King SEALED UP THE MESAGE, why dies no one get this metaphor? God has SEALED UP THE Trumpet Judgments, only after all 7 Seals are off can the Judgments even start. If you had 7 Locks on a door, and all manner of gifts in the closet, no matter how many times you explained these gifts to your guests, after 6 locks have been taken off, the door is STILL LOCKED right? Only as you take the 7th lock off will the door be opened. Likewise, this is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8 it brings Gods JUDGMENTS but only AFTER the 144,000 (code for 5 million Jews) are saved and protected.

If we were to try to correlate the 4th trumpet with these passages, it would mean that the 4th trumpet is taking place at the return of Jesus as seen in the 6th seal. This wouldn't make sense because that leaves no room left for the 5th and 6th trumpet to occur during the 70th week.
Jesus returns at the 7th Vial brother.
 
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Douggg

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The 6th Seal IS THE FOURTH TRUMP come to pass. The Seals are only Prophetic Lingo !! Jesus FORETELLS two things, the Anti-Christ/Beast/Little Horns life actions in the first 5 seals, he then foretells God' Full Wrath in the 6th Seal, and the 7th Seal opens the Scroll of Wrath, thus Rev. 7 is the 1/3 or 5 million Jews being Sealed or SAVED by God then Protected by God BEFORE His Wrath falls in Rev. 8. (Asteroid Impact) Trumps 1-4 are FOUR PHASES to one asteroid impact. Look it up, google what happens when a large asteroid makes impact. You will be told as it is incoming it will be on fire (no kidding, like a Mountain) and these sulfur balls that destroyed Sodom will fall and burn 1/3 of the Trees (not really 1/3 that is a DESTINATION POINT, the New World is that 1/3). Then in Trump #2 we get the IMPACT the Earth quakes as John describes it etc. Then in Trump #3 we get a poisonous FALL OUT....Of course we would.....that poisons the Fresh Waters in the New World where it hits. Trump #4 is the Smoke getting up into the Jet Steam and botting the Sun & Moon's light out by a 1/3 AND of course the moon will appear to be Blood Red because of all the fires burning on earth, it will have a Red Hue to it.
Fisherking, a suggestion: To make your posts understandable to the reader, don't use "run-on" sentences.

Also, use one or two sentence paragraphs. Not one big one like above.

Those two things will help in your communication to others.
 
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Fisherking

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Fisherking, a suggestion: To make your posts understandable to the reader, don't use "run-on" sentences.

Also, use one or two sentence paragraphs. Not one big one like above.

Those two things will help in your communication to others.
I have been doing this 40 plus years Dougggg.......I understand how I need to place things to get a point across my dear friend. All of that had to be grouped together for a reason. When I write blogs I take the time to has it all out, when I am on a message board, I prefer to group all my points to ONE REPLY at a time and if it goes long, because I think of more that needs to be added, I am not going to go back and redo it on a message bard.

AND...........Smile.....Israel never accepts the Anti-Christ as their Messiah. You are misinterpreting John 5:43 as have told you before.
 
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