Might the Laws of God actually change on the New Earth?

ViaCrucis · Aug 26, 2025

Dan Perez said:
But the Law did pass away as written in. Acts 28:25-28 and so does the book of Hebrews !!

dan p

The Law did not pass away.

In Christ there is a New Covenant, established in His blood; as such the Old Covenant is done away. But the Law is not abolished, but rather the fullness of the Law (rather than the mere external observances) is written in the heart.

We do not observe the Jewish Sabbath, because that was only for the Jews under the Old Covenant.
In the New Covenant we behold the true Sabbath, in the Person of Jesus Christ. Which is why in Hebrews we read that there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God--not a day of the week, but the Person of the Messiah; in whom we have our forever rest as we have been freed from the dreadful labor of sin and death; and further the commandment tells us about how we ought to treat our neighbor, and even our beasts of burden. For to love our neighbor and to be good stewards of creation means that we have a moral obligation to treat others and all creation justly--and that means times of respite.

As Christians, too, we remember the sanctity of rest, which is why we historically set time aside for worship--to come together in prayer, to hear the word, to celebrate the Holy Supper, and historically we do this at least once a week, on the Lord's Day.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Aug 26, 2025

Jamdoc said:
On the second part, Jesus has half brothers and sisters, including James.
So up until Jesus was born yeah, Joseph never consummated their marriage.
But after Jesus was born, I know that Catholics and some other denominations hold that they NEVER consummated their marriage but brothers and sisters doesn't really lead one to believe in perpetual virginity.

So to me, bad example.

You are assuming that they are half-siblings. Scripture doesn't tell you that they are Mary's children.

-CryptoLutheran

Jamdoc · Aug 27, 2025

ViaCrucis said:
You are assuming that they are half-siblings. Scripture doesn't tell you that they are Mary's children.

-CryptoLutheran

"Brothers and sisters" would be siblings.

BelieveItOarKnot · Aug 31, 2025

GreatMysteryofChrist said:
This pathway that I described above is taught over and over again throughout the NT teachings of Christ. However, Christ teaches it in His spiritual language so that no one but those who have had their spiritual blindness healed can understand those teachings.

Somewhat enjoyable read.

The only matter I'd delineate is that we all still have sin and sin is of the devil. So who is the sinner in that equation, the person or the devil? Should be obvious, we have a usurper in the flesh temple. Which is why it is doomed to the dust. The devil(s) made perpetually homeless as each clay pot expires.

It's also why sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor. 5:19

It's also why everyone who loves knows God and is born of God. 1 John 4:7 Even though they may not be aware this is the case.

Two parties, man and tempter, walking in the same pair of shoes. But there is another between them. Most read that wherever two or more are gathered, there "I am" in the midst of them. That really is a picture of the person and the adversary, with the Divine Separator between them. All unseen other than the person. Falling upon the rock breaks us from the adversary. The adversary however is crushed to powder. Etc etc. Many pictures. The picture of Ishmael struggling with Isaac transpires within each of us, again, us and the tempter in a wrestling match. Same picture. Esau and Jacob struggling in the womb. Same picture. Satan here before man, the real unseen elder in the picture. The elder person doesn't know of his condition, being blinded by the real elder, the adversary. The second man sees his condition, like Jacob, even though at the time he probably didn't realize what he was really doing. A liar, a deceiver, a usurper, even draped in goat skins. This is the man whom God blesses because HE SEES his real God given condition. At the end of Jacob's life he lays his hands on his grandsons, wittingly, having finally figured it out. Even Joseph, the elder son being put under Pharaoh (a picture of the unseen adversary) and ending up blessed.

Head bows.....out

DennisF · Aug 31, 2025

Jamdoc said:
So, just led to Matthew today, and I'm reading and something stood out in the sermon of the Mount

Matthew 5

right so this part we all know, to give context

Heaven and Earth do pass away, and a New Earth comes.. meaning the laws can pass away then, and be removed, or replaced.

The text does not say that "heaven and earth" will pass away, but is given in the conditional: until, if ever, they pass away. The law is basically the operating envelope within which we humans were designed to function. As long as we exist and are human, in whatever form, the law describes how we are to live. Is the resurrected Jesus still human? Yes, though enhanced. Does his behavior conform to the law of God? Of course, if we believe he is sinless.

Gen. 1:1 introduces the expression "heaven and earth" (shamayim and eretz). What are they? It is easy for modern readers to assume they consist of the modern cosmological model from astrophysics of the universe, but that is not necessarily the scope of their meaning in scripture. It could be constrained to observation, as "sky and land" to which the Hebrew words otherwise are translated. So when Peter uses language suggesting destruction of the earth, it is easy to fantasize the scope of this destruction to mean the whole planet.

DennisF · Aug 31, 2025

Jamdoc said:
On the second part, Jesus has half brothers and sisters, including James.
So up until Jesus was born yeah, Joseph never consummated their marriage.
But after Jesus was born, I know that Catholics and some other denominations hold that they NEVER consummated their marriage but brothers and sisters doesn't really lead one to believe in perpetual virginity.

So to me, bad example.

Feucht's First Law of Bible Study is: never trust the translators! They are neither incompetent nor sinister; translation is essentially impossible. Languages, both ancient and modern, are complicated and can have so many nuances, needing pages of explanation, that it cannot be done in a translation. The ESB translators, for instance, are aware of this and say that their footnotes are to be taken as part of the translation. The word of God now includes footnotes.

The fact that Joseph's genealogy is included in Matthew's account is met with various contorted explanations by theologians. The simple explanation that is consistent with the text is that Joseph's genetics - maybe from a sperm sample - was modified by the angels (ETs of God) in the narrative and implanted into Mary ("the Holy Spirit came upon her", but how?) by them. It was not Joseph's genetics as such but an enhanced modification. If not modified, then there is no reason for the mysterious circumstances surrounding Mary's conception. Yet there it is. Thus, Jesus is genetically descended from both the line of Joseph and Mary yet was not conceived through sex by Joseph and Mary. It was a case of genetic engineering and artificial insemination carried out by the higher beings in the story.

Jamdoc · Aug 31, 2025

DennisF said:
The text does not say that "heaven and earth" will pass away, but is given in the conditional: until, if ever, they pass away. The law is basically the operating envelope within which we humans were designed to function. As long as we exist and are human, in whatever form, the law describes how we are to live. Is the resurrected Jesus still human? Yes, though enhanced. Does his behavior conform to the law of God? Of course, if we believe he is sinless.

Gen. 1:1 introduces the expression "heaven and earth" (shamayim and eretz). What are they? It is easy for modern readers to assume they consist of the modern cosmological model from astrophysics of the universe, but that is not necessarily the scope of their meaning in scripture. It could be constrained to observation, as "sky and land" to which the Hebrew words otherwise are translated. So when Peter uses language suggesting destruction of the earth, it is easy to fantasize the scope of this destruction to mean the whole planet.

Revelation 21:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

So a new creation, and one of the founding principles of the current one: oceans, is gone (which I've always kinda felt sad about, as many of my favorite animals are marine life, and I guess there's just no place for them, they all get killed during the vials, and apparently not brought back)
one of the other founding principles, the sun and moon are no longer present, and no light and dark, just all light all the time.
and finally, another early principle of creation: marriage
it's gone.

So if those 3 major things can change with the new creation...

Jamdoc · Aug 31, 2025

DennisF said:
Feucht's First Law of Bible Study is: never trust the translators! They are neither incompetent nor sinister; translation is essentially impossible. Languages, both ancient and modern, are complicated and can have so many nuances, needing pages of explanation, that it cannot be done in a translation. The ESB translators, for instance, are aware of this and say that their footnotes are to be taken as part of the translation. The word of God now includes footnotes.

The fact that Joseph's genealogy is included in Matthew's account is met with various contorted explanations by theologians. The simple explanation that is consistent with the text is that Joseph's genetics - maybe from a sperm sample - was modified by the angels (ETs of God) in the narrative and implanted into Mary ("the Holy Spirit came upon her", but how?) by them. It was not Joseph's genetics as such but an enhanced modification. If not modified, then there is no reason for the mysterious circumstances surrounding Mary's conception. Yet there it is. Thus, Jesus is genetically descended from both the line of Joseph and Mary yet was not conceived through sex by Joseph and Mary. It was a case of genetic engineering and artificial insemination carried out by the higher beings in the story.

Oh that's not the thing I'm talking about there.
It's people like James, who was Jesus' half brother.

Matthew 13

55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Galatians 1

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Catholics and others who have the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity will say that meant "cousins"

DennisF · Aug 31, 2025

Jamdoc said:
Revelation 21:

So a new creation, and one of the founding principles of the current one: oceans, is gone (which I've always kinda felt sad about, as many of my favorite animals are marine life, and I guess there's just no place for them, they all get killed during the vials, and apparently not brought back)
one of the other founding principles, the sun and moon are no longer present, and no light and dark, just all light all the time.
and finally, another early principle of creation: marriage
it's gone.

So if those 3 major things can change with the new creation...

It says sea not oceans. It is so easy for us to read our 20th-century conception of the planet into scripture. The "sea" in the Levant was the Mediterranean Sea. It is possible to plug the narrow channel connecting it to the Atlantic Ocean and let it evaporate. Geologists say that in the ancient past it was a grassland.

As for light, any view of night from space shows that the developed world (and much of the rest) is lit up all the time.

In the West, marriage is already almost gone.

The point I am making is that we need to be careful about what we read into sparse descriptions of ancient documents from an alien culture. God seems to take pleasure in tantalizing us with hints about mysteries, perhaps to see how ridiculous (I'm not saying you are) the human mind can fantasize about them.

Jamdoc · Aug 31, 2025

DennisF said:
It says sea not oceans. It is so easy for us to read our 20th-century conception of the planet into scripture. The "sea" in the Levant was the Mediterranean Sea. It is possible to plug the narrow channel connecting it to the Atlantic Ocean and let it evaporate. Geologists say that in the ancient past it was a grassland.

As for light, any view of night from space shows that the developed world (and much of the rest) is lit up all the time.

In the West, marriage is already almost gone.

The point I am making is that we need to be careful about what we read into sparse descriptions of ancient documents from an alien culture. God seems to take pleasure in tantalizing us with hints about mysteries, perhaps to see how ridiculous (I'm not saying you are) the human mind can fantasize about them.

well, point taken, it is sea not seas or oceans.
But it is a common belief that the New Earth will not have well, saltwater.

I'm not really, thinking electric light is what God had in mind, nor do I think marriage giving way to hookup culture was what God had in mind either.

DennisF · Aug 31, 2025

Jamdoc said:
well, point taken, it is sea not seas or oceans.
But it is a common belief that the New Earth will not have well, saltwater.

I am not interested in "common beliefs" because they are almost always euphemisms for unsupported speculation.

Jamdoc said:
I'm not really, thinking electric light is what God had in mind, nor do I think marriage giving way to hookup culture was what God had in mind either.

You know the mind of God better than I. I am not saying that this is what I claim is the meaning of the biblical text - only that this text can be taken in a number of different directions. Eschatology is not easy. My foray into it is here.

Jamdoc · Sep 1, 2025

DennisF said:
I am not interested in "common beliefs" because they are almost always euphemisms for unsupported speculation.

True.. it's about all we can really do is speculate based on what is revealed.

DennisF said:
You know the mind of God better than I.

I really don't. I really really don't.

DennisF said:
I am not saying that this is what I claim is the meaning of the biblical text - only that this text can be taken in a number of different directions. Eschatology is not easy. My foray into it is here.

it isn't, and generally I just go into it with the idea that if it's not presented as a symbol, not explained as a symbol (IE many symbols are either explained in the context, God, or an angel, will explain a symbol after presenting it, IE Revelation 17 has loads of symbols but each time the angel says "the woman is the great city that reigns over the kings of the earth" "the 10 horns are 10 kings" etc... and if not explained there sometimes it's a reference to a symbol from an earlier book where it is then explained, like the 4 horsemen are a reference to Zechariah 6, and the 2 olive branches are explained in Zechariah 4)... then I take a passage literally. After all Judas literally sold Jesus out for 30 pieces of silver and it was used to literally buy the potter's field. So you don't have to wonder about what the 30 pieces of silver is a symbol and what it represents. Jesus literally rode a donkey into Jerusalem, so you don't have to wonder about that prophecy's symbol, as it was literal.

So I just.. if the text says it, and doesn't explain it anywhere as a symbol, I assume literal.

which is how I come to this topic. I read scripture, noted that Jesus gave possible expiration clauses instead of just saying that not one jot nor one tittle will ever pass away from the law for ever and ever. He gave a condition that if met, then what happens?

BelieveItOarKnot · Sep 1, 2025

GreatMysteryofChrist said:
Dear BelieveItOarKnot,

I only only partially agree with some of what you stated. I'll try to explain below.

Mankind commits sins because mankind was created spiritual marred and subject to vanity. This spiritual flaw gives mankind a carnal mind. The carnal mind will put the needs of "self" over loving others and loving God. We show our love for God by our obedience to Him. But since the carnal mind puts the needs of self first, mankind will frequently disobey God. When a person disobeys God, they are sinning.

Satan was created to be mankind's tempter and destroyer. He is not the source of mankind's sin. Satan merely tempts us to sin. From his temptations, mankind will sin more frequently.

When Christ came in the flesh, He had the Spirit without measure. Because He did, Christ never developed a carnal mind. And since Christ never developed a carnal mind, He ALWAYS obeyed His Father over His own needs. As a result, Christ never sinned.

As for why sins are not counted against a faithful believer, it is only become they are covered by the blood sacrifice of Christ. If a person is not covered by the blood of Christ, they will be held to account for their sins.

Your comment on "two parties, man and tempter, walking in the same pair of shoes" is somewhat true.

Here is how it happens:

From the beginning, Satan has been mankind tempter from "without". However, this changed with Judas. With Judas, Satan entered into Judas (via the spirit of anti-Christ) and tempted Judas to sin from "within". When this happened to Judas, he already had a small measure of the Holy Spirit within Him. Now with the spirit of anti-Christ indwelling Judas, too, there were "two" in the "same pair of shoes".

Judas is a "type" for an apostate believer. After Paul's death, all the babes in the churches that were started were indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ. When this happens to a babe, they will be like Judas, having both the small measure of the Spirit and the spirit of anti-Christ within them. And like Judas, the babe will betray Christ and become unfaithful. The babe becomes unfaithful because they have spiritually fornicated with Satan. In other words, the babe started following the ways of Satan instead of the ways of Christ.

Note: When the spirit of anti-Christ enters a babe, the Abomination of Desolation occurs within the babe (God's Temple).

After a babe becomes a "man of sin" (like Judas), they will fall from grace.

Since the death of Paul, all babes have experienced Satan's deceptions and have fallen from grace. No new believer can avoid it happening to them.

These two scriptures below teach why it happens:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

For the apostate babes who are Elect, Christ will come to them a second time (His second coming) and pour out the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain will restore the babe and give them a new birth as a child of God. Judgment will then immediately follow to remove and destroy the spiritual things (the chaff) from within them that has caused them to be carnally mind and sinful. Those spiritual things are the spirit of anti-Christ and the person's marred and carnal spirit.

The verses below describe this judgment:

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field (within one babe); the one shall be taken (spirit of anti-Christ), and the other left (Holy Spirit). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill (within one babe); the one shall be taken (marred and carnal spirit), and the other left (new divine spirit).

For the apostate babes are not Elect, Christ will not return to them and convert them. As a result, they will die in their sins and will receive their portion (salvation) with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire.

The babes will suffer "loss" but they will still be saved:

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Joe

One of the simplest observations available in the Gospels is that devils were "within" mankind.

As believers we either buy into that or we don't.

IF we do, then by rights, it should change our perspectives on people, as there is no such thing as a "freestanding" individual. ALL have sin, Romans 3:9, and sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

As to sins not being counted only for believers, uh, no. Sins are not counted against people, period.

Sins are however and will remain counted against the devil and his messengers.

I can see you're really in to exonerating the devils from your equations above, hardly factoring them in the equations and coming down heavily on counting sins against people. I'm not into those angles as they won't compute.

The tempter (or his own) operates in the minds of everyone. The tempter (or his own) can and does speak through people and the tempter (or his own) does act out in sin. That's why mankind is captive to them. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2

When we are saved, we learn the difference between ourselves and the tempter, but most simply forget that is the case in any case, don't they?

At no point of our obedience do we every become "sinless" in this present life, and we do not because of the presence of the tempter or his own.

BelieveItOarKnot · Sep 1, 2025

DennisF said:
It was a case of genetic engineering and artificial insemination carried out by the higher beings in the story.

Boy, that's getting out there. Creativity points to you.

Of course there are always other explanations as well that are just as credible that doesn't involve sperm capture, modification and insertion. It is the realm of the supernatural, after all. God could make people out of stones. Matt. 3:9.

David Lamb · Sep 1, 2025

GreatMysteryofChrist said:
Dear BelieveItOarKnot,

I only only partially agree with some of what you stated. I'll try to explain below.

Mankind commits sins because mankind was created spiritual marred and subject to vanity. This spiritual flaw gives mankind a carnal mind. The carnal mind will put the needs of "self" over loving others and loving God. We show our love for God by our obedience to Him. But since the carnal mind puts the needs of self first, mankind will frequently disobey God. When a person disobeys God, they are sinning.

So how do you explain God saying that everything that He had created, including man, was very
good?

“Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” (Ge 1:31 NKJV)

GreatMysteryofChrist said:
Satan was created to be mankind's tempter and destroyer. He is not the source of mankind's sin. Satan merely tempts us to sin. From his temptations, mankind will sin more frequently.

When he was first created, Satan was an angel like the other angels. He became mankind's tempter, but that is not how he was created.

DennisF · Sep 1, 2025

Jamdoc said:
True.. it's about all we can really do is speculate based on what is revealed.

We can do more. The Bible, including its eschatology, is written in a time and place about which more can be studied, and this gives additional information about some of what scripture means. Other scripture is, of course, a good place to start, but there is more. I cover some of this in my Eschatology Notes. For instance, the end of the age is not unknown in time because an age in the ancient world was a time period on the zodiacal star-clock. It appears not infrequently in the Bible, but because modern readers do not know what it is, they ignore it. (Rev. 12 opens with it.) Yet it provides additional chronological information, although not as precise as we might want.

Jamdoc said:
it isn't, and generally I just go into it with the idea that if it's not presented as a symbol, not explained as a symbol (IE many symbols are either explained in the context, God, or an angel, will explain a symbol after presenting it, IE Revelation 17 has loads of symbols but each time the angel says "the woman is the great city that reigns over the kings of the earth" "the 10 horns are 10 kings" etc... and if not explained there sometimes it's a reference to a symbol from an earlier book where it is then explained, like the 4 horsemen are a reference to Zechariah 6, and the 2 olive branches are explained in Zechariah 4)... then I take a passage literally. After all Judas literally sold Jesus out for 30 pieces of silver and it was used to literally buy the potter's field. So you don't have to wonder about what the 30 pieces of silver is a symbol and what it represents. Jesus literally rode a donkey into Jerusalem, so you don't have to wonder about that prophecy's symbol, as it was literal.

So I just.. if the text says it, and doesn't explain it anywhere as a symbol, I assume literal.

There is an ancient and biblical use of numbers as symbolic (numerology) and although we have very little of it in American society ("101 uses for ...", "forty-eleven gears ..."), it appears more often in the Bible. The numbers 3, 7, and 40 have a peculiar way of appearing, along with 40 x 12 = 480 years before the babylonian captivity and 70 x 7 = 490 years after. The historic chronology works out to be this (if you side, as I do, with the biblical chronology for the dating of the Exodus), but to us, 480 is not equal to 490 and this appears to be a direct numeric contradiction. And that is because we think like Greeks, not Hebrews. In Greek thinking, for instance, all means "without exception" whereas in the Hebrew mind it is more statistical and means "the preponderance of". (All the cattle of the Egyptians die in one plague only to get boils in the next plague. Dead cattle getting boils?) So we must be aware of how numbers are used differently in scripture than in our setting.

Jamdoc · Sep 1, 2025

DennisF said:
We can do more. The Bible, including its eschatology, is written in a time and place about which more can be studied, and this gives additional information about some of what scripture means. Other scripture is, of course, a good place to start, but there is more. I cover some of this in my Eschatology Notes. For instance, the end of the age is not unknown in time because an age in the ancient world was a time period on the zodiacal star-clock. It appears not infrequently in the Bible, but because modern readers do not know what it is, they ignore it. (Rev. 12 opens with it.) Yet it provides additional chronological information, although not as precise as we might want.

True, I wouldn't even know where to begin outside of scripture.

I just know He is coming again.

DennisF said:
There is an ancient and biblical use of numbers as symbolic (numerology) and although we have very little of it in American society ("101 uses for ...", "forty-eleven gears ..."), it appears more often in the Bible. The numbers 3, 7, and 40 have a peculiar way of appearing, along with 40 x 12 = 480 years before the babylonian captivity and 70 x 7 = 490 years after. The historic chronology works out to be this (if you side, as I do, with the biblical chronology for the dating of the Exodus), but to us, 480 is not equal to 490 and this appears to be a direct numeric contradiction. And that is because we think like Greeks, not Hebrews. In Greek thinking, for instance, all means "without exception" whereas in the Hebrew mind it is more statistical and means "the preponderance of". (All the cattle of the Egyptians die in one plague only to get boils in the next plague. Dead cattle getting boils?) So we must be aware of how numbers are used differently in scripture than in our setting.

Numerology I have not gotten into at all. I know certain numbers are used repeatedly to represent something like 7 being completion 40 being trials/tribulation, 4 to represent cardinal directions or the entire world, but beyond that.. I haven't investigated numerology.

SabbathBlessings · Sep 1, 2025

ViaCrucis said:
The Law did not pass away.

In Christ there is a New Covenant, established in His blood; as such the Old Covenant is done away. But the Law is not abolished, but rather the fullness of the Law (rather than the mere external observances) is written in the heart.

We do not observe the Jewish Sabbath, because that was only for the Jews under the Old Covenant.
In the New Covenant we behold the true Sabbath, in the Person of Jesus Christ. Which is why in Hebrews we read that there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God--not a day of the week, but the Person of the Messiah; in whom we have our forever rest as we have been freed from the dreadful labor of sin and death; and further the commandment tells us about how we ought to treat our neighbor, and even our beasts of burden. For to love our neighbor and to be good stewards of creation means that we have a moral obligation to treat others and all creation justly--and that means times of respite.

As Christians, too, we remember the sanctity of rest, which is why we historically set time aside for worship--to come together in prayer, to hear the word, to celebrate the Holy Supper, and historically we do this at least once a week, on the Lord's Day.

-CryptoLutheran

Where does Scripture say we can pluck out one of the commandments, part of the words of the covenant that God Himself wrote Exo 31:18 and claim its for someone else (laying it aside Mark 7:7-8 ) than for who He said it was for Mar 2:27 Isa 56:6 The commandments came in a unit of Ten, nowhere does it say only one of the commandments is for Jews- Christ in His own words told us who the Sabbath is made for everyone. I believe it’s best to let God be God to define His own covenant and what it entails Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 Deut 5:22. Jesus said not a jot or tittle can pass, which would obviously includes the one commandment that most has forgotten that He said to Remember that is holy, blessed and sanctified by our Creator..

God did establish a New Covenant- He took His laws- the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments Exo 34:28 Deut 4:13 and placed them from being written on stone, to writing in the heart of the NC believer 2 Cor 3:3 Heb 8:10 -why we see Sabbath keeping throughout the entire Bible and in the New Heaven and New Earth.

No where in the entire bible says the Sabbath is the Jewish Sabbath. God claimed it as His- My holy day, the holy day of the Lord, thus saith the Lord Isa58:13 meaning there is no other, just a counterfeit leading people away from obedience to what God said. The Sabbath is a commandment no different than the commandment to only worshiping God and not steal from our neighbor.

God has given us everything, so our response back to Him should be one of love by obedience to His commandments. If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3. God spoke His commandments, God personally wrote them, they are His Testimony Exo 31:18 claimed them as His commandments Exo 20:6 our response should be to do what He ask because we love Him.

DennisF · Sep 1, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Boy, that's getting out there. Creativity points to you.

Of course there are always other explanations as well that are just as credible that doesn't involve sperm capture, modification and insertion. It is the realm of the supernatural, after all. God could make people out of stones. Matt. 3:9.

You want to hear something really far out? Resurrection of the physical body from the dead.

God does not wave a magic (magic is a pagan artifice) wand. His behavior, unlike the pagan gods, is not fickle, capricious, and unpredicatable. He acts in a way that is a main theme about God in the Bible - in the OT - about how Yahweh is hesed. He is covenant-keeping (unlike Israel) and his behavior is not self-contradictory. You can know how God will act because it is proscribed in the covenant. This kind of behavior by the covenant-keeping God includes his rational and consistent upholding of the physical world (the Creation) which makes science possible. "God can do anything" some say, but he does not. A god who can do (and does) anything is a god devoid of a name - of characteristics by which he can be described. Yet Yahweh is described in abundance in scripture by specific characteristics.

So when Jesus makes these kinds of far-out statements, they should not be interpreted in a pagan way. Whatever God does, there is in the creation some rational process to it. We might not be able to identify it because our scientific knowledge is not adequately advanced, but it occurs in accordance with the patterns of behavior of God more generally.

I do not know the specific means by which Joseph's genetics was obtained by angels, but it is clear that something extraordinary happened to bring about the conception of Mary. The explanation I have given does not contradict any of the facts in the biblical account yet explains why Joseph's genealogy is given by Matthew. Genealogy implies what we understand to be genetic descent. It should also be noted that there is rather substantial appearance of angels in the context of Mary's conception. One appears to her beforehand and although that conversation is abbreviated and also somewhat obscure in meaning, it would not be unexpected that some explanation by the angel to Mary would be given about her anticipated conception.

Jamdoc · Sep 1, 2025

DennisF said:
You want to hear something really far out? Resurrection of the physical body from the dead.

God does not wave a magic (magic is a pagan artifice) wand. His behavior, unlike the pagan gods, is not fickle, capricious, and unpredicatable. He acts in a way that is a main theme about God in the Bible - in the OT - about how Yahweh is hesed. He is covenant-keeping (unlike Israel) and his behavior is not self-contradictory. You can know how God will act because it is proscribed in the covenant. This kind of behavior by the covenant-keeping God includes his rational and consistent upholding of the physical world (the Creation) which makes science possible. "God can do anything" some say, but he does not. A god who can do (and does) anything is a god devoid of a name - of characteristics by which he can be described. Yet Yahweh is described in abundance in scripture by specific characteristics.

So when Jesus makes these kinds of far-out statements, they should not be interpreted in a pagan way. Whatever God does, there is in the creation some rational process to it. We might not be able to identify it because our scientific knowledge is not adequately advanced, but it occurs in accordance with the patterns of behavior of God more generally.

I do not know the specific means by which Joseph's genetics was obtained by angels, but it is clear that something extraordinary happened to bring about the conception of Mary. The explanation I have given does not contradict any of the facts in the biblical account yet explains why Joseph's genealogy is given by Matthew. Genealogy implies what we understand to be genetic descent. It should also be noted that there is rather substantial appearance of angels in the context of Mary's conception. One appears to her beforehand and although that conversation is abbreviated and also somewhat obscure in meaning, it would not be unexpected that some explanation by the angel to Mary would be given about her anticipated conception.

The one that stood out to me was the creation of Eve. God could have just spoke her into being, or just sculpted her from earth and gave her life as He did with Adam, taking inanimate starting material and making something alive out of it.....
but He chose neither of these previous mechanisms of creation.

God cloned Eve from Adam.
In an adult human the main source of hematopoiesis (formation of new blood cells) takes place in the marrow of the flat bones within the body, that is the skull, sternum, clavicle, pelvis... and ribs.
Well you can't really remove the bones of Adam's skull, his pelvis, his collar bone, or his sternum... but he has enough ribs that removing one wouldn't affect his bodily function in a noticeable way. It then becomes the best source of stem cells from which to make a clone.
A lot of people figure the rib was just taken because it makes Eve a part of Adam, flesh of my flesh, bone of my bones, and this is true.
Some will go on to say rib specifically because it's 'close to Adam's heart' and that is also true (but the sternum would have been even more symbolic then, or taking a piece of Adam's heart itself).
But the ribs being a good source of stem cells to clone from and Adam has some to spare.. well that just makes perfect logical sense.
so Adam is described as undergoing surgical anesthesia, a surgical operation, and repairing the surgical incision made.

Moses described surgery without having even the faintest idea of the concept. He could not have just made that up. The biologist in me latched onto this and it has become one of my things that I hold the bible as not just being an ancient book written by shepherds.

Might the Laws of God actually change on the New Earth?

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