Hans Blaster
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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History
- Thread starter stevevw
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Actually belief becomes central. I think this was one of the points in the video or similar ones. That rather than the discovery of agriculture causing humans to settle in one place and form social communities that it was actually the belief in gods.
The building on monoliths and temples like Gobekli Tepe for for deremonial and religious purposes to the gods which led to people coming together and then came more organised living.
I disagree. Its incorporating these beliefs that we better understand ourselves rather than dismissing an entire dimension of human behaviour as just a by product or silly myth that has no relevance.
As mentioned these stories and myths give deep insight into ourselves. They echo who we were and have become.
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Like I said I have been down this path before so have plenty of evidence. I just gave one piece and no one seemed to challenge it or give any explanation for how this could have been produced. Lets start with that. Tell me how a small copper hand saw or even a large one could produce those signatures.
This is black granite and not sandstone. Perfectly flat with a thin almost machined sharp edge. A small copper hand saw would leave all sorts of eneven marks in cutting the rock in sections as it grinds rather than actually cuts. The edge is so thin it would be like slicing a thin layer cheese cheese of a block of cheese..
Now we cannot find what could have produced this. But certainly the existing tools on record claimed to have done is is completely inadequate and would produce a different signature.
So now the mainstream have to spectulate themselves and come up with stories how this was possible. Oh it was created by manpower, sawing, bashing and rubbing to mimick a machine like finish lol. So the same thing applies.
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Aaron112
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Thanks for the link.... to me it looked like ('gobblygoo') a lot a short report of a lot of made up stories (probably paid for with bribes) , like news and politics and science and military and banking/commerce today is.
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Aaron112
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No, it is not best, not by a long shot. The sinfulness and wickednesses everywhere including the so-called high places of government in all areas, religion, finance, growing and producing food , etc etc etc is so long-standing, so corrupt, so deceiving (the whole world is deceived), "almost even the elect are deceived" (and it may be that multitudes of those who call on God are still deceived greatly)...... one painful observation: millions are sick and dying because of purposeful malicious false teachings and deceptions in the so-called professions. Un-needful
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Hans Blaster
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Oh boy, they really are out over their skis. They've got no actual evidence of that, just speculation. (This is where I have a problem with pre-historic anthropologists and archeologists. They are way to willing to assume that any bit of expression is some form of spiritual representation or religion. Maybe those cave paintings of gazelles aren't about worshipping gazelles, but just illustrations of their favorite hunting story. And those "Venus" statuettes, they look like they are for "sinning".
Yet we find settlements in the area that pre-date it and houses on the Gobekli Tepe site.
It's not about "dismissing a 'dimension' of human behavior" at all. Nor do our interpretations have anything to do with our "religious worldviews". Your fellow Australian and you are far closer to each other on things spiritual than either of you are to me, yet he and I are on the same page (and not with you) on ancient history and pre-history. Our understandings (yours, mine, his) of things spiritual have nothing to do with how these things are interpreted and understood (unless you are applying some sort of faith test).
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Except the available evidence points to sedentism originating somewhere between 3000 years (lower bound) and 13,000 years (upper bound) before the development of the Gobekli Tepe site.
You've got various cultures throughout the late Epipaleolithic spread across the Fertile Crescent, North Asia and Southwest Asia which show evidence of transitions from mobile hunter-gatherer populations with limited diets to more permanent settlements with broader diets (helped by the start of domestication). Some of these are estimated as early as 25,000 to 30,000 years back, others more in the 12,000 to 15,000 year ago range.
There's a building body of evidence that crop domestication started to emerge about 23,000 years ago, with the deliberate selection of various wild grasses for yields. Crop and animal domestication was already spread throughout the Eurasian landmass by the time Gobekli Tepe was constructed.
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And the same can be said of those who dismiss such possibilities. Like I said the mainstream orthodox view is that there is no other aspect to human behaviour beyond the material explanations.
So suggesting such thingss is treated exactly how you just did. Theres nothing to see its spectulation and all religious and spiritual aspects are merely expressions of evolutionary processes that create such ideas and beliefs.
Yes thats the point. It seems the ceremonial and religious aspect was the reason for the settlements. This is what brought people together. It may be that there was still a nomadic component and the religious sites occassionally brought them together. But the building of these monoliths is what encultured people to live together.
There may have been settlements beforehand but that does not mean there was some precursor religious site that predates GT. It may be in the same site of GT that was further built upon.
The point is as the video said this ability to think in sophisticated terms of transcedent aspects in art, symbols, story telling of things beyond and gods that governed animals, the skies, nature, crops, cycles is there from a very, very early time and seems to have been the basis for creating communities. A belief that united and also dictated the way they lived together and with nature.
It doesn't follow that an association of likemindedness itself explains the facts. Your more or less appealing to authority or agreement itself is evidence..
I don't know what peoples biases are. all I know is that between yourself and men there is a pretty big metaphysical difference is what will be aceptable as real or relevant to understanding human behaviour and development.
You will see any spiritual or transcendent aspect as a byproduct of the material processes. I call it material as I cannot think of a better world for something that reduces reality to the naturalistic processes where everything including belief and spirituality are caused by naturalistic process and have no substance as far as fundemental reality.
But nevertheless these are two entirely different worldviews which will influence how people see behaviour and the evidence. I don;t think other posters on this thread would disagree with this assessment of the different worldviews which influence what counts as epistemics.
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Yes but that only supports what the video is saying. That forms of agriculture, domestification and organised living was happening way earlier than we thought. The idea that the rise of fertile crescent was the rise of agriculture, and organised societies is pushed back way earlier. The idea that this was because of the discovery of agriculture and domestification just prior is wrong.
There are examples of very complex organised societies before argriculture and then leading to the rise of agriculture, domestification and sophisticated organised living.
Gobekli Tepe is but one example for that time. Only 10% has been found so its quiet a large and complex culture. But we see similar patterns like you say 20, 30 and even 100,000 years ago or more. And the common factor that brought this about seems to be first some sort of ceremonial place of worship that brought people together. To guide how they were to organise themselves, their crops, and the world around them.
It may not be always like GT. We see caves as temples and this would have brought people back again and again until they settled. Most of these sites are set in certain places of importance. Indigenous peoples trace sacred sites going back 60,000 years. This is what brought people together. It was what gave life meaning and influenced everything they did.
That is why we always find temple like structures, and stories going way back about the gods, the spirit world, even over crops, certain animals. Yes probably a common hunted animal but one that was seen as part of a spiritual world. It was not just building for the sake of building or croppoing or hunting. Everything was seen through the prism of a spiritual and transcedent world.
At least as far as the cognitive revolution and the rise in complex and symbolic thinking. Maybe when the brain got to a certain level of intelligence which enable more complex thought and behaviour it also at the same time opens the floodgates to religious and transcedent belief. Rather than it being a byproduct that gradually came due to evolutionary forces that were merely geared towards survival.
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Let’s have a look at your image which has the some potential for forensic examination a field I have some experience with.
A single image without any background information except it is made from granite is very limited, an image of another stone block would be necessary to compare faces as the I cannot tell from your image if the face furthest way from the image has the same quality cut.
There is however a very simple explanation for this high quality cut, granite has a crystalline structure composed mainly of quartz, feldspar, and mica crystals forming planes of weakness which fracture easily when subjected to stress.
These can result in ready made cuts as shown in the following images of granite where no human or alien intervention was involved.
The Egyptians were skilful in recognizing and exploiting these planes of weakness in granite by using wooden wedges driven into the granite. The wedges were then soaked in water which would expand resulting in the granite to fracture along the plane of weakness.
With regards to the image I have cropped the bottom left hand part of the image which has been slightly enlarged and sharpened to show the striation patterns on the surface in greater detail.
The striations in the image are consistent with hand-abrasive polishing of the face rather than some high tech machine process, because of the variability in depth and spacing.
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Ok thankyou that you are willing to investigate and be open and have some knowledge of this. What you presented could be one explanation. I know there is evidence where they use wedges to split blocks.
But I still don't think this fully explain the signatures. I will link some more. By the way the example I gave was from the black pavers at Abu Rawash. There are many. I don't think natural splits explains that particular cut. Here are some more. Here is the full image of the block and it does not look like its been split.
Its hard to get a good pic of the thin sharp edge on this example. But there are similar ones that show how thin and sharp these cuts are like they are sliced or machined off like a plane or router. But its too sharp and fine for a copper saw that wobbles about grinding rather than cutting or shaving so destinctly and precise.
Also at Abu Rawash this granite slab which seems to be cut with a curve and has what looks like deeper machined gouges that have created a slight step here and there. As though whatever cut it dug in deeper in some places. Best to click on them to get a bigger image.
These are similar at Abu Sir. The darker curved line at center is magnified in the next pic and the 3rd pic shows what looks like more machine marks. Certainly not from a coppe saw, bashing, or splitting stones. Very strange indeed. What sort of tool would produce such signatures.
This one also from Abu Rawash seems to be like a thin layer was cut or shaved off even what looks like a bend in the cut.
Yes I mentioned this. But there is not signs of wedges nor is this split. These are cut, shaved or sliced off almost in one go, one continuious slice or cut. Which seems capable of taking a thin slice off without breaking up.
The old hand rubbing to make it look like machining. These lines are too consistent and deep to be hand made. They look more like a continious machining. In the other examples it looks like the cut in the left over from what was cut from the rock.
Why would they hand flaten a useless surface that was a leftover. Why would they even bother hand rubbing these slabs so perfectly flat when near enpugh would have done as they were just pavers. Why also rub perfectly flat the surface that faces down.
Why would they rub thin sharp edges. These edges seem to have a bend in them like they were machined. A perfect arc as though the cut was slightly bowed or changed directions from the same cut.
As you can see from the other pics there are definite machine type marks, like a router or electric plane went off course or dug in deeper.
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Ophiolite
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I don't understand what part of this request was incomprehensible: "For once, how about producing some solid, published research that justifies that assertion; not empty empty assertions, YouTube videos, or conspiracy theory books, but real scientific research. It seems generally absent from your rambles."
Implicit in this, as it would be for any request of this kind, would be for a citation to the paper carrying the authoritative research, probably a relevant quotation from the paper, and a pointer to the particular page, graphic, or paragraphs that best represented the argument/idea. Your inability to understand this, or your reluctance to comply, speaks volumes as to your profound ignorance of how discussions on science are properly conducted. I await, not with much hope, that you will now respond accordingly.
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Hans Blaster
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No, I am trying to point out that your position on the ancient history and anthropology has nothing to do with religion. That's why I am closer to someone that is religious than you are. This is about establishable facts and reasonable interpretations.
This isn't about biases, other than the one I have for wanting evidence.
Seeing "spirituality" as a function of biology and pyschology is not a denial that it exists or existed before we have written confirmation of it. There are clearly "spiritual" things going on in prehistoric past. (My only complaint is that I do think they sometimes are too quick to attribute all advanced cognition and awareness to "spirituality". Some people then and now just want to look nice, etc.)
The principle issue in the claim you presented in the OP is about evidence of "higher" congnative functions in our ancestors, especially earlier than many people assume. Interpreting the *intent* or *nature* of that higher function as spiritual or not has absolutely no bearing on its existence. So even if I am strongly biased against seeing that behavior as "spiritual" (the claim you have made in this post), it just doesn't matter because I am perfectly capable of recognizing conscious, advanced cognitive behaviors.
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Hans Blaster
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No, that wasn't my point. At. All.
There is very clearly actual settlement of people just living there. They had rituals, of course, but it was just a settlement. Perhaps because it was well situated and prosperous, they could invest more in ceremonial spaces and that attracted the ceremonial interests of nearby peoples like a cathedral city does. Part of the problem seems to be that the first excavations of Gobekli Tepe were in the ceremonial complex and little evidence of habitation was seen in those early digs, but it is no longer the case.
The Gobekli Tepe site was at the time of its construction a very fertile and productive place in terms of gatherable grains, seeds, and nuts as well as wildlife to be hunted. It was the kind of place were sedentary (not nomadic) hunting and gathering could thrive, and did. Deliberate cultivation likely arose in such places (as has been the theory on the emergence of agriculture for as long as I can remember). Whatever the religious practices of those people the *ECONOMIC* ones are fairly clear and supported by the physical evidence of the ruins.
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The Barbarian
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The earliest known cultivated crop is cannabis. Probably for fiber, not recreational use.
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I am not going to be side tracked or distracted by your multiple images and concentrate on the image I analysed presented again here for reference.
Granite is an igneous rock formed when magma solidifies deep underground. This results in slow cooling and the formation of large crystal structures. When the Egyptians were able to split granite along a plane of weakness the surfaces are not smooth, the crystal structures are interlinked resulting in a grainy roughened surface.
If the surface visible in your image is the result of splitting the granite there must have been some polishing of the surface afterwards.
This leaves two other options the surface is the result of either cutting the granite with your unknown technology but in this case let’s assume it is a diamond tipped rock cutting saw or a copper saw using water and an abrasive such as sand.
Here is a comparison image between the two cutting methods.
Even though your image shows a fair degree of wear through weathering effects there is enough detail in the groove structure of the striations to reveal a variability in the depth and kerf (the width of the groove) which one would not expect to find in diamond tipped rock cutting saw as illustrated.
The kerf variation also indicates the abrasive size is not constant, another feature one would not expect with a diamond tipped cutter.
Even thought the block is worn in your sample there is enough detail to indicate the striations are consistent with the ancient Egyptians using copper saws, water and abrasives instead of some modern form of tooling.
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Wonder why humans started eating crops?.
Clearly human stomach acid is right there with Lions, one step above vultures the bottom lol
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In this thread there have been suggestions the pharaoh Khufu engaged in a bit of forgery and he was not the builder of the Great Pyramid which was completed well before his time, despite his cartouche being written and tucked away in an obscure part of pyramid on a slab of granite before the pyramid was completed.
A spectacular archaeological discovery in 2013 also confirms Khufu as the relevant pharaoh but also provides an insight into the Great Pyramid's construction and that the ancient Egyptians were very much advanced in project management.
The Tura quarry site had been in use for centuries and the chisel marks at the site show a transition from copper to bronze and finally iron.
During Merer's time copper tools were used as characterized by the shallow, rounded cuts in the limestone as the copper had a tendency of blunting quickly due to its lack of hardness. The harder bronze and iron chisels which followed left deeper and sharper grooves.
A spectacular archaeological discovery in 2013 also confirms Khufu as the relevant pharaoh but also provides an insight into the Great Pyramid's construction and that the ancient Egyptians were very much advanced in project management.
The Tura quarry site had been in use for centuries and the chisel marks at the site show a transition from copper to bronze and finally iron.
During Merer's time copper tools were used as characterized by the shallow, rounded cuts in the limestone as the copper had a tendency of blunting quickly due to its lack of hardness. The harder bronze and iron chisels which followed left deeper and sharper grooves.
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The Barbarian
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The observation that new plants came from seeds was the key. A lot of anthropologists think farming was a disaster for humans. It led to bigger populations that then starved when there was an inevitable crop failure. Neolithic hunter-gatherers, were healthier than their farming counterparts. But a hundred puny farmers would win every time over a dozen healthy hunter-gatherers, who were then pushed out to marginal land.
We have a pH of about 1.5, more acidic than most animals. Supposedly a relic of early hominid scavenging. Vultures are about 1.0, which is much more acidic.
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But, that is the mainstream scientific view - that the arrival and sedentism and domestication were processes that lasted ~15,000 to 20,000 years. The pace of development was incremental at first and then underwent exponential shifts for various developmental, technological or cultural reasons.
Agriculture and domestication weren't discoveries, there were gradual processes with rapid culminations produced by a critical mass of self reinforcing momentum.
Give me examples of the features of these 'very complex organised societies'.
What made them complex?
What organisation did they have?
Gobekli Tepe is a religious site and temporary/seasonal settlement, not a culture.
The oldest layers are complex and impressive, but they're also ~11,000 years old - well into the establishment of sedentism and the post-glacial maximum population explosion in Eurasia.
No, we don't.
We see a steady progression of developmental sophistication in the ~150,000-200,000 years before, and we see a progression of cultural/societal sophistication in the ~70,000-80,000 years before.
You can't draw that conclusion from the available evidence. You don't know what came first. You can't tell if the ceremonial places are chicken or egg.
This is just wild speculation, untethered to actual evidence available to us.
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