Might the Laws of God actually change on the New Earth?

Dan Perez said:

But the Law did pass away as written in. Acts 28:25-28 and so does the book of Hebrews !!

dan p

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The Law did not pass away.

In Christ there is a New Covenant, established in His blood; as such the Old Covenant is done away. But the Law is not abolished, but rather the fullness of the Law (rather than the mere external observances) is written in the heart.

We do not observe the Jewish Sabbath, because that was only for the Jews under the Old Covenant.
In the New Covenant we behold the true Sabbath, in the Person of Jesus Christ. Which is why in Hebrews we read that there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God--not a day of the week, but the Person of the Messiah; in whom we have our forever rest as we have been freed from the dreadful labor of sin and death; and further the commandment tells us about how we ought to treat our neighbor, and even our beasts of burden. For to love our neighbor and to be good stewards of creation means that we have a moral obligation to treat others and all creation justly--and that means times of respite.

As Christians, too, we remember the sanctity of rest, which is why we historically set time aside for worship--to come together in prayer, to hear the word, to celebrate the Holy Supper, and historically we do this at least once a week, on the Lord's Day.

-CryptoLutheran

Jamdoc said:

On the second part, Jesus has half brothers and sisters, including James.
So up until Jesus was born yeah, Joseph never consummated their marriage.
But after Jesus was born, I know that Catholics and some other denominations hold that they NEVER consummated their marriage but brothers and sisters doesn't really lead one to believe in perpetual virginity.

So to me, bad example.

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You are assuming that they are half-siblings. Scripture doesn't tell you that they are Mary's children.

-CryptoLutheran

Jamdoc said:

So, just led to Matthew today, and I'm reading and something stood out in the sermon of the Mount

Matthew 5

right so this part we all know, to give context

Heaven and Earth do pass away, and a New Earth comes.. meaning the laws can pass away then, and be removed, or replaced.

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Dear Jamdoc,
Christ's words are "spirit" and spirit words carry meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things (words) with spiritual (words).

To understand what the meanings of spirit words, we must be guided by the Spirit of Truth and compare spirit words with how they are used elsewhere in scripture.

When we do this with the spirit word earth, it can be discerned that the spirit word "earth" represents a person's own spirit.

From creation, mankind's spirit is "marred" (Jer 18:4). The flaw in mankind's spirit is that it is weak. Because mankind's spirit is weak, it puts the needs of individual over their need to be obedient to God. In other words, mankind's spirit has a carnal spiritual nature rather than a divine spiritual nature. For this reason, mankind frequently disobeys God and sins.

When Christ came in the flesh, His physical body was the same as the one mankind was given. However, spiritually, Christ was very different. Christ's spirit was governed by the Holy Spirit (without measure, John 3:34), whereby making Christ's spirit have a divine spiritual nature rather than a carnal spiritual nature. For this reason, Christ never disobeyed His Father and sinned.

With a divine spiritual nature, the Christ ALWAYS put His obedience to God above His own needs. So much so, that Christ died on the cross rather than disobey His Father.

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Mankind's spirit that has a carnal spiritual nature is the "natural" earth that comes first. Christ's spirit that has a divine spiritual nature is the "spiritual" earth (new earth) that comes second.

This concept applies:

1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

In order for a person to be converted from a child of the Devil into a child of God, Christ will change the spiritual makeup of the individual.

Christ begins the conversion process within an unbeliever by freely giving them a small measure of the Holy Spirit. He gives them this gift without their asking or permission. After the Spirit is given, the unbeliever will become a believer; a babe in Christ.

This small measure of the Holy Spirit in the farming analogy is called the Early Rain. In the marriage analogy, the small measure of the Holy Spirit is what makes a person into a "virgin" who is espoused to Christ.

After a time of waiting, Christ will return to the believer (a babe/virgin) and give them the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In the farming analogy, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is called the Latter Rain. In the marriage analogy, the baptism is represented by the extra flask of oil that is virgin possesses.

Now with both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit within the person, their own spirit will be governed by the Holy Spirit so that their spirit will have a divine spiritual nature like the one Christ possesses.

To make this change (natural earth --> new earth) within an individual, the Holy Spirit will use the spiritual process of judgment. With this process of judgment, the natural earth that has a carnal spiritual nature will be destroyed and replaced with a new earth that has a divine spiritual nature.

This spiritual process of judgment will complete the person's conversion from being a child of the Devil (mankind) to being a child of God.

The spiritual process of judgment is what Peter is teaching in the scripture below using the spirit words "natural earth" and "new earth". Peter also uses the spirit words "natural heavens" and the "new heavens".

2Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the (natural) heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the (natural) earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the (natural) heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The spirit word "heavens" is used in the celestial analogy. The natural heavens consists of the natural sun (Satan), the natural moon (Old Covenant) and the natural stars (fallen angels). It is the natural heavens that shines its "light" (false truth) upon the natural earth. For this reason, Satan is called the god of this world (2Cor 4:4).

The spirit word "new heavens" consists of only the new/spiritual Sun who is Christ. When a person is converted, the new heavens will shines its "light" (truth) upon the new earth. For this reason, Christ is called the God of the (new) earth in Rev 11:4.

Here are two other examples that use the celestial analogy to represent the conversion of an individual:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the (natural) sun be darkened, and the (natural) moon shall not give her light, and the (natural) stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

In chapter 21 of Revelation, a spiritual description of the converted Elect upon their bodily resurrection from the grave is presented. The Elect at this time are in their new glorious spiritual bodies.

Rev 21:And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the (natural) sun, neither of the (natural) moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb (spiritual Sun) is the light thereof.

Joe

Jamdoc said:

Okay but uh.. none of that had anything to do with what I quoted.

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Dear jamdoc,
If a person doesn't understand what the new earth represents, how can they answer your question?

Christ came to fulfill the Law. God's law doesn't change whether a person has a marred & carnal spirit (natural earth) or a new divine spirit (new earth).

A person with a natural earth/carnal spirit tries to obey the law by their own efforts. This is the crooked way of the Old Covenant.

A person with the new earth/divine spirit has the law written in their hearts and the Holy Spirit within them causes them to follow the law. This is the straightway of the New Covenant.

Scripture doesn't state one way or the other about what happens to the physical planet that presently exists.

Joe

Jamdoc said:

Allegorizing scripture to essentially be meaningless and glorifying the mundane is just.. not the God I know.

and scripture does say that this planet passes away, and is replaced.

like, here's the issue I have with overallegorizing scripture. Is that you can basically make it mean whatever you want. People use "spiritualizing" scripture to extreme ends to declare preterism as true, that the New Earth is now, that we're living in heaven now, and that the kingdom is just the Church and just.. glorifying mundane life on this sin cursed ball floating in space, burying their head in the sand at all the suffering and sin and death that still is all around them. They talk about how the "proof" of their truth being how widespread Christianity is as a religion, and to that I say: spreading a religion is no proof of its divine truth, ISLAM spreads more rapidly than Christianity these days, and Islam is most definitely not the true and living God. I'm simply not awed by a religion spreading, especially when much of its spread was by force for hundreds of years. You can force people to worship trees at gunpoint/swordpoint and it'll spread. Nothing divine or spiritual about that.

Jesus will come back, He has not yet. When He comes back it won't be something that has to require mental gymnastics to believe, it'll be undeniable. Throughout scripture when they talk about the Day of the Lord (which is when Jesus comes back) God says that even the heathen will know He is the Lord. It won't take belief at that point, it won't take faith either. It'll be undeniable, and unbelievers will know then. Similarly, when the Old Earth passes away and the New Earth is created, it won't be something you have to stretch and mental gymnastics your way through.. it'll just be reality. This world won't exist anymore, and the New Earth will be different, things won't die on it for starters, there won't be sin on it either.

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Dear Jamboc,
Someday you are going to be shocked & humbled when Christ finally heals your spiritual blindness and you can see Him (the Word of God) clearly for the first time.

The Second coming of Christ and the Day of the Lord occurs for each Elect babe before they die. If Christ doesn't come back to a babe before they die, then they are not one of the Elect and they will die in their sins.

For the Elect babes, the second coming of Christ & the Day of the Lord (judgment) will immediately follow the baptism of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain). The Latter Rain is what heals the bride's spiritual blindness so that the Bridegroom will appear to them. After He appears, the wedding will occur, followed by the Day of the Lord.

Because Christ comes a second time to all of His Elect before they die, Christ's second coming is said to be a reoccurring event (is, was and will be coming):

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Rev 11:17 saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was and who is to come, because you have taken your great power and reigned.

When Christ gives the small measure of the Spirit to an unbeliever, they become a babe in Christ and enter the church. In this weak spiritual condition, Satan will come to them and deceive them. No babe since the death of Paul can avoid Satan's deceptions. It is in this apostate condition that all Elect babes wait for the Bridegroom's return (since Paul's death).

Consider what James said below:

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: FOR THE COMING OF THE LORD DRAWETH NIGH.

James was speaking to "babes" who had only been given the Early Rain. They were still waiting for the Lord to come back and pour out the Latter Rain. James encourages the babes by saying that Christ's coming "draweth nigh". It was not a one-time far off event that the apostate churches teach. James understood that Christ's second coming is a reoccurring spiritual event that will convert the babes into the children of God and make them blameless before the Law. This is exactly what Paul also told the Corinthian babes who were likewise waiting for the Lord to come again.

1Cor 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you (confession of faith/Early Rain): 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you (by the Latter Rain) unto the end (conversion), that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (judgment that completes a babe's conversion).

If Christ's second coming is a one-time event that only happens at the literal end of this age, then how can any believer says that they are already "blameless" before the Law?

The story of the woman taken in adultery is a "type" that teaches when an Elect babe receives the Latter Rain and is made blameless before the Law. It matches exactly with what Paul to the Corinthian babes.

In the story, a woman (represents the Elect/Bride of Christ) is found committing adultery. This adultery represents the original sin that occurred in the Garden of Eden by Adam and Eve (one flesh). The person who Adam and Eve committed adultery with was Satan. It was spiritual adultery that occurred when they followed the crooked way of Satan instead of the straight way of Christ. This sin occurred when Adam and Eve made an apron of fig leaves to cover their sin (works of their hand). This is the crooked way of Satan and is the same way required by the Old Covenant of Law. When a babe commits this sin, it will led to their spiritual death.

Because Adam and Eve committed the sin that leads to death, Christ forsook them and cast them out of the Garden (His home).

This verse applies:

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou was refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

Ever since Adam & Eve (represents the Elect) were cast out of the Garden, Christ has been preparing for the day that He would reconcile with His forsaken wife. In this age, Christ is now doing so under the New Covenant.

To reconcile with His forsaken wife, Christ will write the Law of the Spirit in the heart of the woman. Christ begins this process by giving the woman the Early Rain. This is shown when Christ first writes in the earth. But become the woman is still not reconciled by the Early Rain and is still guilty before the Law, the Pharisees do not drop their stones (represents the Law) and leave.

Christ then writes in the earth a second time. This act represents the Latter Rain. At that time, the woman is reconciled and made blameless before the Law (made ready). The Pharisees then drop their stones and leave saying nothing. The Law can no longer accuse the woman of sin.

The story of the woman taken in adultery is a type for the pathway to salvation that all the Elect will travel. This pathway begins with the Early Rain, a time of falling away, the Latter Rain to make the bride ready and finally the appearance of the Bridegroom and judgment. After this occurs, the an Elect person is converted and saved.

This pathway that I described above is taught over and over again throughout the NT teachings of Christ. However, Christ teaches it in His spiritual language so that no one but those who have had their spiritual blindness healed can understand those teachings.

Joe

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

This pathway that I described above is taught over and over again throughout the NT teachings of Christ. However, Christ teaches it in His spiritual language so that no one but those who have had their spiritual blindness healed can understand those teachings.

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Somewhat enjoyable read.

The only matter I'd delineate is that we all still have sin and sin is of the devil. So who is the sinner in that equation, the person or the devil? Should be obvious, we have a usurper in the flesh temple. Which is why it is doomed to the dust. The devil(s) made perpetually homeless as each clay pot expires.

It's also why sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor. 5:19

It's also why everyone who loves knows God and is born of God. 1 John 4:7 Even though they may not be aware this is the case.

Two parties, man and tempter, walking in the same pair of shoes. But there is another between them. Most read that wherever two or more are gathered, there "I am" in the midst of them. That really is a picture of the person and the adversary, with the Divine Separator between them. All unseen other than the person. Falling upon the rock breaks us from the adversary. The adversary however is crushed to powder. Etc etc. Many pictures. The picture of Ishmael struggling with Isaac transpires within each of us, again, us and the tempter in a wrestling match. Same picture. Esau and Jacob struggling in the womb. Same picture. Satan here before man, the real unseen elder in the picture. The elder person doesn't know of his condition, being blinded by the real elder, the adversary. The second man sees his condition, like Jacob, even though at the time he probably didn't realize what he was really doing. A liar, a deceiver, a usurper, even draped in goat skins. This is the man whom God blesses because HE SEES his real God given condition. At the end of Jacob's life he lays his hands on his grandsons, wittingly, having finally figured it out. Even Joseph, the elder son being put under Pharaoh (a picture of the unseen adversary) and ending up blessed.

Head bows.....out

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Somewhat enjoyable read.

The only matter I'd delineate is that we all still have sin and sin is of the devil. So who is the sinner in that equation, the person or the devil? Should be obvious, we have a usurper in the flesh temple. Which is why it is doomed to the dust. The devil(s) made perpetually homeless as each clay pot expires.

It's also why sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor. 5:19

It's also why everyone who loves knows God and is born of God. 1 John 4:7 Even though they may not be aware this is the case.

Two parties, man and tempter, walking in the same pair of shoes. But there is another between them. Most read that wherever two or more are gathered, there "I am" in the midst of them. That really is a picture of the person and the adversary, with the Divine Separator between them. All unseen other than the person. Falling upon the rock breaks us from the adversary. The adversary however is crushed to powder. Etc etc. Many pictures. The picture of Ishmael struggling with Isaac transpires within each of us, again, us and the tempter in a wrestling match. Same picture. Esau and Jacob struggling in the womb. Same picture. Satan here before man, the real unseen elder in the picture. The elder person doesn't know of his condition, being blinded by the real elder, the adversary. The second man sees his condition, like Jacob, even though at the time he probably didn't realize what he was really doing. A liar, a deceiver, a usurper, even draped in goat skins. This is the man whom God blesses because HE SEES his real God given condition. At the end of Jacob's life he lays his hands on his grandsons, wittingly, having finally figured it out. Even Joseph, the elder son being put under Pharaoh (a picture of the unseen adversary) and ending up blessed.

Head bows.....out

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Dear BelieveItOarKnot,

I only only partially agree with some of what you stated. I'll try to explain below.

Mankind commits sins because mankind was created spiritual marred and subject to vanity. This spiritual flaw gives mankind a carnal mind. The carnal mind will put the needs of "self" over loving others and loving God. We show our love for God by our obedience to Him. But since the carnal mind puts the needs of self first, mankind will frequently disobey God. When a person disobeys God, they are sinning.

Satan was created to be mankind's tempter and destroyer. He is not the source of mankind's sin. Satan merely tempts us to sin. From his temptations, mankind will sin more frequently.

When Christ came in the flesh, He had the Spirit without measure. Because He did, Christ never developed a carnal mind. And since Christ never developed a carnal mind, He ALWAYS obeyed His Father over His own needs. As a result, Christ never sinned.

As for why sins are not counted against a faithful believer, it is only become they are covered by the blood sacrifice of Christ. If a person is not covered by the blood of Christ, they will be held to account for their sins.

Your comment on "two parties, man and tempter, walking in the same pair of shoes" is somewhat true.

Here is how it happens:

From the beginning, Satan has been mankind tempter from "without". However, this changed with Judas. With Judas, Satan entered into Judas (via the spirit of anti-Christ) and tempted Judas to sin from "within". When this happened to Judas, he already had a small measure of the Holy Spirit within Him. Now with the spirit of anti-Christ indwelling Judas, too, there were "two" in the "same pair of shoes".

Judas is a "type" for an apostate believer. After Paul's death, all the babes in the churches that were started were indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ. When this happens to a babe, they will be like Judas, having both the small measure of the Spirit and the spirit of anti-Christ within them. And like Judas, the babe will betray Christ and become unfaithful. The babe becomes unfaithful because they have spiritually fornicated with Satan. In other words, the babe started following the ways of Satan instead of the ways of Christ.

Note: When the spirit of anti-Christ enters a babe, the Abomination of Desolation occurs within the babe (God's Temple).

After a babe becomes a "man of sin" (like Judas), they will fall from grace.

Since the death of Paul, all babes have experienced Satan's deceptions and have fallen from grace. No new believer can avoid it happening to them.

These two scriptures below teach why it happens:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

For the apostate babes who are Elect, Christ will come to them a second time (His second coming) and pour out the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain will restore the babe and give them a new birth as a child of God. Judgment will then immediately follow to remove and destroy the spiritual things (the chaff) from within them that has caused them to be carnally mind and sinful. Those spiritual things are the spirit of anti-Christ and the person's marred and carnal spirit.

The verses below describe this judgment:

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field (within one babe); the one shall be taken (spirit of anti-Christ), and the other left (Holy Spirit). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill (within one babe); the one shall be taken (marred and carnal spirit), and the other left (new divine spirit).

For the apostate babes are not Elect, Christ will not return to them and convert them. As a result, they will die in their sins and will receive their portion (salvation) with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire.

The babes will suffer "loss" but they will still be saved:

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Joe

Jamdoc said:

So, just led to Matthew today, and I'm reading and something stood out in the sermon of the Mount

Matthew 5

right so this part we all know, to give context

Heaven and Earth do pass away, and a New Earth comes.. meaning the laws can pass away then, and be removed, or replaced.

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The text does not say that "heaven and earth" will pass away, but is given in the conditional: until, if ever, they pass away. The law is basically the operating envelope within which we humans were designed to function. As long as we exist and are human, in whatever form, the law describes how we are to live. Is the resurrected Jesus still human? Yes, though enhanced. Does his behavior conform to the law of God? Of course, if we believe he is sinless.

Gen. 1:1 introduces the expression "heaven and earth" (shamayim and eretz). What are they? It is easy for modern readers to assume they consist of the modern cosmological model from astrophysics of the universe, but that is not necessarily the scope of their meaning in scripture. It could be constrained to observation, as "sky and land" to which the Hebrew words otherwise are translated. So when Peter uses language suggesting destruction of the earth, it is easy to fantasize the scope of this destruction to mean the whole planet.

Jamdoc said:

On the second part, Jesus has half brothers and sisters, including James.
So up until Jesus was born yeah, Joseph never consummated their marriage.
But after Jesus was born, I know that Catholics and some other denominations hold that they NEVER consummated their marriage but brothers and sisters doesn't really lead one to believe in perpetual virginity.

So to me, bad example.

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Feucht's First Law of Bible Study is: never trust the translators! They are neither incompetent nor sinister; translation is essentially impossible. Languages, both ancient and modern, are complicated and can have so many nuances, needing pages of explanation, that it cannot be done in a translation. The ESB translators, for instance, are aware of this and say that their footnotes are to be taken as part of the translation. The word of God now includes footnotes.

The fact that Joseph's genealogy is included in Matthew's account is met with various contorted explanations by theologians. The simple explanation that is consistent with the text is that Joseph's genetics - maybe from a sperm sample - was modified by the angels (ETs of God) in the narrative and implanted into Mary ("the Holy Spirit came upon her", but how?) by them. It was not Joseph's genetics as such but an enhanced modification. If not modified, then there is no reason for the mysterious circumstances surrounding Mary's conception. Yet there it is. Thus, Jesus is genetically descended from both the line of Joseph and Mary yet was not conceived through sex by Joseph and Mary. It was a case of genetic engineering and artificial insemination carried out by the higher beings in the story.

Jamdoc said:

Revelation 21:

So a new creation, and one of the founding principles of the current one: oceans, is gone (which I've always kinda felt sad about, as many of my favorite animals are marine life, and I guess there's just no place for them, they all get killed during the vials, and apparently not brought back)
one of the other founding principles, the sun and moon are no longer present, and no light and dark, just all light all the time.
and finally, another early principle of creation: marriage
it's gone.

So if those 3 major things can change with the new creation...

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It says sea not oceans. It is so easy for us to read our 20th-century conception of the planet into scripture. The "sea" in the Levant was the Mediterranean Sea. It is possible to plug the narrow channel connecting it to the Atlantic Ocean and let it evaporate. Geologists say that in the ancient past it was a grassland.

As for light, any view of night from space shows that the developed world (and much of the rest) is lit up all the time.

In the West, marriage is already almost gone.

The point I am making is that we need to be careful about what we read into sparse descriptions of ancient documents from an alien culture. God seems to take pleasure in tantalizing us with hints about mysteries, perhaps to see how ridiculous (I'm not saying you are) the human mind can fantasize about them.

Jamdoc said:

well, point taken, it is sea not seas or oceans.
But it is a common belief that the New Earth will not have well, saltwater.

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I am not interested in "common beliefs" because they are almost always euphemisms for unsupported speculation.

Jamdoc said:

I'm not really, thinking electric light is what God had in mind, nor do I think marriage giving way to hookup culture was what God had in mind either.

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You know the mind of God better than I. I am not saying that this is what I claim is the meaning of the biblical text - only that this text can be taken in a number of different directions. Eschatology is not easy. My foray into it is here.

GreatMysteryofChrist said:

Dear BelieveItOarKnot,

I only only partially agree with some of what you stated. I'll try to explain below.

Mankind commits sins because mankind was created spiritual marred and subject to vanity. This spiritual flaw gives mankind a carnal mind. The carnal mind will put the needs of "self" over loving others and loving God. We show our love for God by our obedience to Him. But since the carnal mind puts the needs of self first, mankind will frequently disobey God. When a person disobeys God, they are sinning.

Satan was created to be mankind's tempter and destroyer. He is not the source of mankind's sin. Satan merely tempts us to sin. From his temptations, mankind will sin more frequently.

When Christ came in the flesh, He had the Spirit without measure. Because He did, Christ never developed a carnal mind. And since Christ never developed a carnal mind, He ALWAYS obeyed His Father over His own needs. As a result, Christ never sinned.

As for why sins are not counted against a faithful believer, it is only become they are covered by the blood sacrifice of Christ. If a person is not covered by the blood of Christ, they will be held to account for their sins.

Your comment on "two parties, man and tempter, walking in the same pair of shoes" is somewhat true.

Here is how it happens:

From the beginning, Satan has been mankind tempter from "without". However, this changed with Judas. With Judas, Satan entered into Judas (via the spirit of anti-Christ) and tempted Judas to sin from "within". When this happened to Judas, he already had a small measure of the Holy Spirit within Him. Now with the spirit of anti-Christ indwelling Judas, too, there were "two" in the "same pair of shoes".

Judas is a "type" for an apostate believer. After Paul's death, all the babes in the churches that were started were indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ. When this happens to a babe, they will be like Judas, having both the small measure of the Spirit and the spirit of anti-Christ within them. And like Judas, the babe will betray Christ and become unfaithful. The babe becomes unfaithful because they have spiritually fornicated with Satan. In other words, the babe started following the ways of Satan instead of the ways of Christ.

Note: When the spirit of anti-Christ enters a babe, the Abomination of Desolation occurs within the babe (God's Temple).

After a babe becomes a "man of sin" (like Judas), they will fall from grace.

Since the death of Paul, all babes have experienced Satan's deceptions and have fallen from grace. No new believer can avoid it happening to them.

These two scriptures below teach why it happens:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

For the apostate babes who are Elect, Christ will come to them a second time (His second coming) and pour out the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain will restore the babe and give them a new birth as a child of God. Judgment will then immediately follow to remove and destroy the spiritual things (the chaff) from within them that has caused them to be carnally mind and sinful. Those spiritual things are the spirit of anti-Christ and the person's marred and carnal spirit.

The verses below describe this judgment:

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field (within one babe); the one shall be taken (spirit of anti-Christ), and the other left (Holy Spirit). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill (within one babe); the one shall be taken (marred and carnal spirit), and the other left (new divine spirit).

For the apostate babes are not Elect, Christ will not return to them and convert them. As a result, they will die in their sins and will receive their portion (salvation) with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire.

The babes will suffer "loss" but they will still be saved:

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Joe

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One of the simplest observations available in the Gospels is that devils were "within" mankind.

As believers we either buy into that or we don't.

IF we do, then by rights, it should change our perspectives on people, as there is no such thing as a "freestanding" individual. ALL have sin, Romans 3:9, and sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

As to sins not being counted only for believers, uh, no. Sins are not counted against people, period.

Sins are however and will remain counted against the devil and his messengers.

I can see you're really in to exonerating the devils from your equations above, hardly factoring them in the equations and coming down heavily on counting sins against people. I'm not into those angles as they won't compute.

The tempter (or his own) operates in the minds of everyone. The tempter (or his own) can and does speak through people and the tempter (or his own) does act out in sin. That's why mankind is captive to them. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2

When we are saved, we learn the difference between ourselves and the tempter, but most simply forget that is the case in any case, don't they?

At no point of our obedience do we every become "sinless" in this present life, and we do not because of the presence of the tempter or his own.

DennisF said:

It was a case of genetic engineering and artificial insemination carried out by the higher beings in the story.

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Boy, that's getting out there. Creativity points to you.

Of course there are always other explanations as well that are just as credible that doesn't involve sperm capture, modification and insertion. It is the realm of the supernatural, after all. God could make people out of stones. Matt. 3:9.