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Trump to sign executive order directing AG to prosecute flag desecration

Oompa Loompa

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"Nationalist education" is alive and well in America's public schools, where national symbols like the flag, the Constitution, are imbued with mythical, symbolic weight. Whereas Britain has more historical memory of the results of nationalism rooted in myth: bombed cities, destroyed lives, and collective struggle of resistance.

English patriotism tends to be more rooted in a sense of place, relatively stable cultural institutions (especially before the Thatcher-Blair revolutions) and common life, and doesn't require the same amount of gloss. There are symbols of course, but there's also a sense of distance from them that you don't get in American culture. Perhaps due to the weight of a longer historical memory that's full of wrestling with ambiguity and complexity in a way that America's more ideological founding myths can't assimilate (and still hasn't).

In Australia, the differences are even more stark, I would imagine.
The best way I can explain it is to compare burning the American flag to insulting the Brittish crown to a bunch of Royal Marines.
 
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Nithavela

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I was in Canada for 3 weeks last year. Yeah, there were a few I noticed. But not to the extent that I'd seen in the US. And Union flags in the UK? In my thirty years there I really can't recall seeing a private residence flying it. That said, there seems to have been quite a recent upsurge in flag hoisting:


'"Operation Raise the Colours" is also the name of another group that has encouraged people to put up flags and is alleged to have accepted a donation from the far-right organisation Britain First, The Times reported. According to the research group Hope Not Hate, Operation Raise the Colours was co-founded by Andrew Currien, otherwise known as Andy Saxon, who has allegedly had links with the English Defence League and Britain First. The group denies it is a far-right organisation.'

Both groups are most definitely far right. So quite a few people are concerned about what the flags are representing.
I have read several articles about people wondering if the english flag can be "reclaimed" from the far right, as if just by being used by the far right, has become forever tainted.

This is one of many weaknesses of the left. They are so worried by the negative connotations of anything that it is far to easy to take things away from them. Be it political topics, symbols or just simple hand gestures like the OK sign, once it is used by a racist, it becomes politically incorrect to use, and anyone using it becomes suspect. No wonder the left alienates people.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Americans have a lot to be proud of, and for good reason. I am sure Australians have accomplishments they can look to, but I don't recall any Australian Lee Greenwood's singing "I am proud to be an Australian, because at least I know...."?
Every country has things they can be proud of, in many cases moreso than Americans… Lee Greenwood and is ridiculous song is not one of them.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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I have read several articles about people wondering if the english flag can be "reclaimed" from the far right, as if just by being used by the far right, has become forever tainted.

This is one of many weaknesses of the left. They are so worried by the negative connotations of anything that it is far to easy to take things away from them. Be it political topics, symbols or just simple hand gestures like the OK sign, once it is used by a racist, it becomes politically incorrect to use, and anyone using it becomes suspect. No wonder the left alienates people.
It’s not that we are worried about negative connotations and political correctness… It’s that when something becomes a thing used by racists to be racists, we don’t want to be lumped in with the racists.

We harken back to the time where doing things that racists did was entirely undesirable.
 
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RDKirk

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I have read several articles about people wondering if the english flag can be "reclaimed" from the far right, as if just by being used by the far right, has become forever tainted.

This is one of many weaknesses of the left. They are so worried by the negative connotations of anything that it is far to easy to take things away from them. Be it political topics, symbols or just simple hand gestures like the OK sign, once it is used by a racist, it becomes politically incorrect to use, and anyone using it becomes suspect. No wonder the left alienates people.

It’s not that we are worried about negative connotations and political correctness… It’s that when something becomes a thing used by racists to be racists, we don’t want to be lumped in with the racists.

We harken back to the time where doing things that racists did was entirely undesirable.

You completely agree, then, with @Nithavela

You are worried about negative connotations and political correctness because you believe you'll be lumped in with the racists.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Every country has things they can be proud of, in many cases moreso than Americans… Lee Greenwood and is ridiculous song is not one of them.
And Americans have things they can be proud of, in many cases more so than EVERY OTHER COUNTRY. America is the only country who can say that.
 
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Nithavela

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It’s not that we are worried about negative connotations and political correctness… It’s that when something becomes a thing used by racists to be racists, we don’t want to be lumped in with the racists.

We harken back to the time where doing things that racists did was entirely undesirable.
And so you continue to be pushed to the sideline.
 
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RDKirk

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And Americans have things they can be proud of,
And people in pretty much every other country have things they are proud of.
in many cases more so than EVERY OTHER COUNTRY.
First, you said "in many cases" which does not mean "in every case."

Second, I think a lot of countries would say they have either more things to be proud of or more significant things to be proud of.

America is the only country who can say that.
People in a number of countries would say, "No."
People in a lot of countries would start counting the things they're proud of from 2,000 years ago.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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You completely agree, then, with @Nithavela

You are worried about negative connotations and political correctness because you believe you'll be lumped in with the racists.
Not wanting to engage in behavior associated with racists isn’t political correctness. It’s hating racists and having a moral code that means I don’t do things that emulate them.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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And Americans have things they can be proud of, in many cases more so than EVERY OTHER COUNTRY. America is the only country who can say that.
Every other country in the world has something that they can be proud of in a way more than an American can. Saying otherwise is just blind nationalism to the exclusion of reality. Even Trump admits America isn’t the greatest.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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And so you continue to be pushed to the sideline.
If not wanting to be associated with racists puts me on the sideline with racists, that’s fine.

Interesting admission direct from the horse’s mouth about your politics and what that stands for, though.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Such as what? Enforcing immigration laws?
How some do so, yes, but that wasn’t what I was thinking of as an example. I don’t think ICE using American flags is an automatic display of racism.
 
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Nithavela

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If not wanting to be associated with racists puts me on the sideline with racists, that’s fine.

Interesting admission direct from the horse’s mouth about your politics and what that stands for, though.
I would imagine myself to be center-left. I would just like for the left to be more effective and less concerned with optics.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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First, you said "in many cases" which does not mean "in every case."
And? Your point? I am not suggesting that in EVERY case, America had reasons to be proud more so that every other country. But in many cases, they can. Where is the confusion. Last I checked, America is still the only country to have walked on the moon.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Every other country in the world has something that they can be proud of in a way more than an American can. Saying otherwise is just blind nationalism to the exclusion of reality. Even Trump admits America isn’t the greatest.
Then it is a good thing I am not saying otherwise.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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How some do so, yes, but that wasn’t what I was thinking of as an example. I don’t think ICE using American flags is an automatic display of racism.
So please give us an example of what you are talking about.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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Last I checked, America is still the only country to have walked on the moon.

Last I checked, The United States was the only country to have walked on the moon.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Last I checked, The United States was the only country to have walked on the moon.
"We are not going to the moon because it is easy, but because it is hard." JFK

Yay American exceptionalism!
 
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Tropical Wilds

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I would imagine myself to be center-left. I would just like for the left to be more effective and less concerned with optics.
I think not engaging with racist behavior isn’t really an optics thing but a “I don’t want to be associated with racists” thing.
 
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