How should have Christians historically addressed Islam?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Monday at 1:15 PM

chevyontheriver said:
I guess you have never been a refugee. I had that opportunity for a mere month. I would not wish it on anybody.

Your idea to move to France seems naive in the extreme. France is rapidly becoming Islamic. Maybe Hungary or Romania or Uruguay or some place not already going Islamic. Scandinavia and Britain and Germany are also pretty far gone. Choose carefully. And if you live long enough you may get to flee your new home for somewhere else. That is if you have nothing you are willing to defend.

To be fair to Hoping my question was about what Christians should have done in medieval Spain. Yet his answer betrays basic self interest and reliance on others.Why flee to France? Because a Christian Ruler is sovereign there and you would be reasonably protected from Islamic raids.

It's a contradiction though because Hoping pretends to not rely on others and his answer of running away and fleeing if applied by all Christians would ultimately have ended in Christian subjugation because Muslims historically were relentless conquerors.

This is the problem with a viewpoint which refuses to see us as actors within God's plan.

Hoping2 · Monday at 2:21 PM

chevyontheriver said:
Jesus prayed that a particular cup pass him by. But it didn’t. You are not greater than Jesus.

Jesus put qualifiers on His request...that it should be His Father's will.
When I pray that Father will not allow me to be in any situation where I would need to use violence against someone, I understand that all my prayers will be answered according to my Father's will.
I am no greater than Jesus.
It is written..."It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord." (Matt 10:25)

chevyontheriver · Monday at 3:09 PM

Hoping2 said:
Jesus put qualifiers on His request...that it should be His Father's will.
When I pray that Father will not allow me to be in any situation where I would need to use violence against someone, I understand that all my prayers will be answered according to my Father's will.
I am no greater than Jesus.
It is written..."It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord." (Matt 10:25)

Some day perhaps you will be in a position to stop a rape. What are you going to do other than say 'Please stop'? WIll you summon the coersive power of the police, who will put a stop to the rape? Would you advocate the rape victim move to France? This is a current question as there are rape gangs now in western Europe that exert their power with impunity. Whatchagonnado? Just pray that you never run into that situation?

Hoping2 · Monday at 9:27 PM

chevyontheriver said:
Some day perhaps you will be in a position to stop a rape. What are you going to do other than say 'Please stop'? WIll you summon the coersive power of the police, who will put a stop to the rape? Would you advocate the rape victim move to France? This is a current question as there are rape gangs now in western Europe that exert their power with impunity. Whatchagonnado? Just pray that you never run into that situation?

I am going to keep praying that God never allows me to be in that situation.
So should you.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Monday at 9:32 PM

Hoping2 said:
I am going to keep praying that God never allows me to be in that situation.
So should you.

Many of the Christians throughout history that experienced such horrors also prayed to be spared from them. God allowed them to suffer such deprivation and molestations. This is why your high minded pacifism from a position of comfort and security in your armchair comes off as arrogant. At least to me, that you do away with the sacrifices made by past Christians to secure the future for us and denigrate them in the same breath despite you being the end product.

You seperate yourself from them and act as if you owe nothing to those who came before you by saying you rely only God as if God has only used you and no one else. This sort of solo scriptura hyper Protestant individualism is the death of Christianity because it pretends we owe nothing to anyone. This is why you have difficulty expressing the idea that it is good to stop rape or murder and I think it an abomination and corruption of the Gospel that could only be believed by a modern who relies on protection and order but condemns those who enforce such protection and order. Hypocritical to the extreme.

Your view of past Christians is insulting and no I am not suggesting that we cannot criticize past Christians but when they defended their nations from Islamic Raiders and conquerors we should acknowledge the good it did. You won't do that do out of some misguided belief that Christ called us to be murdered and never defend anyone.

Hoping2 · Monday at 9:48 PM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Many of the Christians throughout history that experienced such horrors also prayed to be spared from them. God allowed them to suffer such deprivation and molestations.

Yes, and even today their sufferings glorifies God.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
This is why your high minded pacifism from a position of comfort and security in your armchair comes off as arrogant.

I will keep obeying the God and the Savior who said to love my neighbors as I love myself.
If you think you can get away with disobeying them, your fate is sealed.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
At least to me, that you do away with the sacrifices made by past Christians to secure the future for us and denigrate them in the same breath despite you being the end product.

Who knows, our sufferings today might secure the future of the church of the future ?
History does have a habit of repeating itself.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
It's insulting and no I am not suggesting that we cannot criticize past Christians but when they defended their nations from Islamic Raiders and conquerors we should acknowledge the good it did.

Sin has no profit to anyone.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You won't do that do out of some misguided belief that Christ called us to be murdered and never defend anyone.

God's people obey God.
Those who depend on their own strength, are without God.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Monday at 9:50 PM

Hoping2 said:
Yes, and even today their sufferings glorifies God.

I will keep obeying the God and the Savior who said to love my neighbors as I love myself.
If you think you can get away with disobeying them, your fate is sealed.

Who knows, our sufferings today might secure the future of the church of the future ?
History does have a habit of repeating itself.

Sin has no profit to anyone.

God's people obey God.
Those who depend on their own strength, are without God.

See my edit of my original post. If you consider it a sin to defend fellow Christians, brothers and sisters in the faith and secure the future of the faithful then we have no common faith.

You have departed from those in the past who laid the foundation and maintained it. You can stand alone because you have nothing else, no communion or community to which you belong.

Your faith is yours alone and no Christian has existed before you. I am glad your faith dies with you. If you believe in this Gospel of yours and you die being the only one to believe it, belief in your God dies with you. A false Church remains where Christians consider it just to defend one another and so I would ask what glory does this bring about to God? To see his last believer die leaving nothing behind?

Hoping2 · Monday at 10:00 PM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
See my edit of my original post. If you consider it a sin to defend fellow Christians, brothers and sisters in the faith and secure the future of the faithful then we have no common faith.

I thought we had already established that ?
I will depend on God for my protection.
You depend on yourself.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You have departed from those in the past who laid the foundation and maintained it. You can stand alone because you have nothing else, no communion or community to which you belong.

No sinner ever established anything in Christ, as there is no sin in Christ.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Your faith is yours alone

Not by a long shot.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
and no Christian has existed before you.

Plenty have worshipped God in Spirit and truth before I ever heard of perfect obedience to God.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I am glad your faith dies with you.

My faith will die with me, but the faith of God will exist until the Lord returns to take vengeance on the disobedient.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Monday at 10:02 PM

Hoping2 said:
I thought we had already established that ?
I will depend on God for my protection.
You depend on yourself.

No sinner ever established anything in Christ, as there is no sin in Christ.

Not by a long shot.

Plenty have worshipped God in Spirit and truth before I ever heard of perfect obedience to God.

My faith will die with me, but the faith of God will exist until the Lord returns to take vengeance on the disobedient.

No your faith will literally die with you. There is no one else who believes in your Gospel. There was no one historically who you can point to as a brother or sister in faith. The bible was written solely for you and no one else. Only you have discovered biblical truth, everyone else being wicked and flesh driven failed in this.

Hiatoric Christians, all of them, were all false because they were not pacifists and relied on each other for help, love and security.

Other Churches will exist but yours is only composed of yourself so true faith dies with you. How does it feel to be the last believer of your God?

Hoping2 · Monday at 10:17 PM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
No your faith will literally die with you

If you mean 'the faith', you err.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
There is no one else who believes in your Gospel.

My 'gospel" is the same as Paul's...Jesus died for our sin and was killed, and resurrected the third day.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
There was no one historically who you can point to as a brother or sister in faith.

Again you err.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
The bible was written solely for you and no one else. Only you have discovered biblical truth, everyone else being wicked and flesh driven failed in this.

The bible was written by and for lovers of God.
All who are thankful for God's mercy and grace, will live in obedience to Him

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Hiatoric Christians, all of them, were all false because they were not pacifists and relied on each other for help, love and security.

Only the disobedient, who called themselves Christians, will die the second death.
Real Christians would rather die than disobey the one who suffered so horribly for them.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Other Churches will exist but yours is only composed of yourself so true faith dies with you. How does it feel to be the last believer of your God?

The church exists not only here in the USA, but also overseas.
It will obey God until the last day.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Monday at 10:20 PM

Hoping2 said:
If you mean 'the faith', you err.

My 'gospel" is the same as Paul's...Jesus died for our sin and was killed, and resurrected the third day.

Again you err.

The bible was written by and for lovers of God.
All who are thankful for God's mercy and grace, will live in obedience to Him

Only the disobedient, who called themselves Christians, will die the second death.
Real Christians would rather die than disobey the one who suffered so horribly for them.

The church exists not only here in the USA, but also overseas.
It will obey God until the last day.

If your Gospel is the same as Saint Paul then no one else has understood Saint Paul throughout the entire history of Christianity.

You can't even point to any one historically or outside of you who is a brother and sister in faith. That's why this conversation is pointless. It doesn't matter. Belief in your God dies with you.

RileyG · Monday at 10:27 PM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Well no you didn't. Historically Muslims from North Africa launched numerous slave raids into Europe, they would capture men in order to put them to work and women for sexual purposes. Should Christians have washed their feet and loved them per the quote you provided?

No. Countless Christian martyrs have been slaughtered by those radicals who claimed to be Muslim.

RileyG · Monday at 10:28 PM

Lukaris said:
I guess all we can do is disprove their “prophet” by the words of the Lord ( whom they consider a prophet) in that John the Baptist was the final prophet ( Matthew 11:1-15). They have no ability to disprove this as some manipulation which is probably their tactic to undermine our scriptures. These words were spoken and recorded centuries before their “prophet” was born.

Not to go off on a tangent, but can Jesus consider to be or both the Messiah AND Prophet within Christianity? I’ve seen some Protestants who say yes.

chevyontheriver · Monday at 10:36 PM

Hoping2 said:
I am going to keep praying that God never allows me to be in that situation.
So should you.

How about praying that you be useful to someone in need rather than that you be protected from an uncomfortable situation? That you have the chance to be a defender for a change.

Hoping2 · Monday at 10:39 PM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
If your Gospel is the same as Saint Paul then no one else has understood Saint Paul throughout the entire history of Christianity.

The folks who taught me the doctrine which is according to Godliness would argue against that errant idea.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You can't even point to any one historically or outside of you who is a brother and sister in faith.

Jesus was of the same mind as I.
Why does your belief differ from His ?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
That's why this conversation is pointless. It doesn't matter. Belief in your God dies with you.

Though this conversation is pointless, the faith and obedience God commands will live on until the end of time.
Want to be part of that ?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Monday at 10:47 PM

Hoping2 said:
The folks who taught me the doctrine which is according to Godliness would argue against that errant idea.

Jesus was of the same mind as I.
Why does your belief differ from His ?

Though this conversation is pointless, the faith and obedience God commands will live on until the end of time.
Want to be part of that ?

What folks? I don't want to be part of your Church. I prefer the Church which has been present since the Apostles. The church which actually resisted Islam. Your Church did not exist at that time and it doesn't really matter. There was no one with your religion back then.

chevyontheriver · Monday at 10:52 PM

RileyG said:
Not to go off on a tangent, but can Jesus consider to be or both the Messiah AND Prophet within Christianity? I’ve seen some Protestants who say yes.

Jesus was Priest, Prophet, and King. So he can be, he is, Messiah and Prophet. Islam has a different take on Jesus though. To them Jesus is the second greatest prophet after Mohammad. Just a prophet, Not a priest. Not a king.

chevyontheriver · Monday at 10:53 PM

Hoping2 said:
The folks who taught me the doctrine which is according to Godliness would argue against that errant idea.

Who are those 'folks' now that you have mentioned being taught doctrine by them?

Hoping2 · Monday at 10:59 PM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
What folks?

The folks whose lives testify to the glory of God.
They who walk as Jesus walked.
Faith comes by hearing, so it is those whom I heard.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I don't want to be part of your Church. I prefer the Church which has been present since the Apostles. The church which actually resisted Islam. Your Church did not exist at that time and it doesn't really matter. There was no one with your religion back then.

As the church I am a part of is named in the bible, (Eph 3:21), I cannot agree with your POV.

Hoping2 · Monday at 11:01 PM

chevyontheriver said:
Who are those 'folks' now that you have mentioned being taught doctrine by them?

The "church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)".

How should have Christians historically addressed Islam?

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