Faith without works explained

BelieveItOarKnot said:

IF a liar says "I believe" are they really telling the truth?

Look, all people "love" in some ways, at some times. That's just the way it is. And "faith" is then present to do so.

And they do so because all people are God's children

The laws are also written in everyone's heart i.e. good and bad

It's only false religions that seek to tamp these matters into the dust

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Not everything a liar says is a lie, but if anybody merely says, "I believe in Jesus Christ," while in their heart, they are thinking, "But I don't really. I'm just saying I do to look good." then of course they weren't telling the truth when they said they believed.

You say that all people are God's children. That is not what Jesus said. To some of His hearers, He said:

““You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources], for he is a liar and the father of it.” (Joh 8:44 NKJV)

We are also told in the New Testament that it is when we become Christians, we are adopted into God's family and can address Him as Father. Writing to Christians in Galatia, Paul says:

“4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.” (Ga 4:4-7 NKJV)

David Lamb said:

Not everything a liar says is a lie

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When Jesus said there was and is no truth in the devil, I believe that is a fact

David Lamb said:

You say that all people are God's children. That is not what Jesus said

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Matt. 23:9 is the citing. In addition, "most" orthodox and traditional protestantism takes this as a fact.

and a little p.s: When Jesus addressed the pharisees as "devils" Jesus was actually speaking to DEVILS in them just as Jesus spoke to Satan in Peter and any number of other occasions where Jesus revealed, rebuked and cast out devils from people.

Pity to mix the 2

The adoption subject is a bit deeper. Technically we are "adopted" into Israel of the spirit, becoming a "Jew" within

Nevertheless God is The God of both Jew and Gentile, regardless. God is not the God of devils

BelieveItOarKnot said:

When Jesus said there was and is no truth in the devil, I believe that is a fact

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Yes I agree with that, but we weren't discussing whether the devil speaks the truth, but whether someone who is a liar ever speaks the truth.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Matt. 23:9 is the citing. In addition, "most" orthodox and traditional protestantism takes this as a fact.

and a little p.s: When Jesus addressed the pharisees as "devils" Jesus was actually speaking to DEVILS in them just as Jesus spoke to Satan in Peter and any number of other occasions where Jesus revealed, rebuked and cast out devils from people.

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But in the verse I quoted, He didn't call them devils. He said that they were of their father the devil.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Pity to mix the 2

The adoption subject is a bit deeper. Technically we are "adopted" into Israel of the spirit, becoming a "Jew" within

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I don't think the Scriptures view adoption as a technicality. It is the way in which God causes a sinner to be transferred ito His family.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Nevertheless God is The God of both Jew and Gentile, regardless. God is not the God of devils

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God is God. The devil and his followers don't obey God, but He is still God, and He will have His way with the devil in the end.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

IF a liar says "I believe" are they really telling the truth?

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James said that they believe.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Look, all people "love" in some ways, at some times. That's just the way it is. And "faith" is then present to do so.

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The problem is that they don’t love, not in the way that God does, not with agape, not with the love that 1 Cor 13 describes, certainly not perfected in love (1 John 4:18). John makes it clear in his letters that our problem is in our failure to love. If we loved as God desires then sin would be totally excluded, done away with, in this world. And there’d be no need for the two greatest commandments. As it is, pride and selfishness, antagonists of love, rule much more often in this world than love does. Jesus calls us to something much higher:

“If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:46-48

BelieveItOarKnot said:

The laws are also written in everyone's heart i.e. good and bad

It's only false religions that seek to tamp these matters into the dust

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The church has always taught that the law is written in everyone’s heart but that, with the Fall, the door was opened to man ignoring it, ignoring the voice of God within himself, IOW, as he rejected the true God and became his own “god” so to speak. That’s why the world’s in the mess that it’s in. And that’s why God would later give man the law. Augustine put it this way:
“God wrote on tablets of stone that which man failed to read in his heart.”

To the extent that man loves, and is perfected in that love, he’d have no need to even hear the law as the law would be fulfilled spontaneously. Anyway, love cannot be minimized in Christianity because love is the heart of it. It’s the nature of God, it’s the reason and motivation for why Jesus came and did everything He did, epitomized by His willingness to lay down His life on the cross in an excruciatingly humiliating and painful passion and death, if that’s what it takes to prove a love so wide and vast and incomparably valuable that it heals the world’s wounds and the ugly, unjust rift between man and God. It’s what God wants for-and from-us. Love is the law He writes on our hearts when we turn to Him- instead of to the world and ourselves.

fhansen said:

James said that they believe.

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Liars (devils) can claim whatever they want.
Doesn't mean it's a truthful statement from them

fhansen said:

The problem is that they don’t love, not in the way that God does, not with agape, not with the love that 1 Cor 13 describes, certainly not perfected in love (1 John 4:18). John makes it clear in his letters that our problem is in our failure to love

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No one loves like God. That does not mean all people do not love, and in doing so such know God and are born of God, just as John states.

You have some agenda to denigrate your neighbors to try to block them from going to heaven or what? Why not think the best and in hope for them instead?

fhansen said:

The church has always taught that the law is written in everyone’s heart but that, with the Fall, the door was opened to man ignoring it, ignoring the voice of God within himself

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We're no better than any other given sinners, Romans 3:9

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Liars (devils) can claim whatever they want.
Doesn't mean it's a truthful statement from them

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Alright, I guess I just don't see James as a liar.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

No one loves like God. That does not mean all people do not love, and in doing so such know God and are born of God, just as John states.

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No one does anything as perfectly as God; He's infintely perfect in all ways, But that doesn't mean that we're not made in His image and likeness to begin with, and that we cannot love like He does, loving those things He loves in the way He does, with His grace giving and faciliating that love. That's all a result of being justifed, being forgiven and engrafted into the Vine.
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

Our love is a result of His. As we come to know Him by the revelation of His Son, we come to love Him, or we should:
"We love Him because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19

BelieveItOarKnot said:

You have some agenda to denigrate your neighbors to try to block them from going to heaven or what? Why not think the best and in hope for them instead?

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I don't judge, and don't need to; God in His mercy informs us of His will, giving us the criteria for pleasing Him. People denigrate themselves by our actions, by our failure to love, by our refusal to become His child, or to remain in that family, in Him.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

We're no better than any other given sinners, Romans 3:9

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Well, read on, then:
"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:20-22

Jesus didn't come and die just so we could remain in our sins. He came to take them away, to free us from the slavery of the sin that leads to death while making us slaves to righteousness (Rom 6). There's nothing at all humble or noble or noteworthy about continuing to proclaim our sinfulness without some triumph over them as Scripture tells us we now can and must have.

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

fli said:

Read Genesis 22:2 -12. Isaac was a young man. Some estimate Isaac's age to be in his late teens. Let's read about Abraham being declared to be righteous.

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In Genesis 23:1, Sarah died at 127, and she Isaac when she was 90, which means that Isaac was 36-37.

fli said:

Read Genesis 15:2 -6. Abraham had no children when he was declared righteous. Abraham was declared righteous then at least 13 years later Issac was born. At that time Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac were circumcised. That was at least 10 years prior to him and Isaac going to Mt Moriah. That would mean Abraham had been declared righteous at least 23 years prior to when he took Issac to Mt Moriah for sacrifice. Hebrews 12:5-8 The question is had Abraham proved that he was a son of God, let God discipline him, before he took Issac to Mt Moriah. If he had then, he was righteous prior to offering to sacrifice Issac.

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In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the nations, and God’s law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is in accordance with Jesus being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5). So Genesis 15:6 does it divorce what Abraham believed from his works as if he sat around for 37 years doing nothing but mentally affirming the truth of the promise that through his children all of the nations of the earth shall be blessed, but rather he actively worked to bring about the promise that he believed by turning the nations from their wickedness through spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom.

fli said:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. NKJV

James states that “scripture was fulfilled” which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. God declared Abraham righteous as stated above at least 23 years prior to the sacrifice.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. NKJV

The righteous requirement of the law of sin and death are fulfilled by those declared righteous by God who walk in the Spirit. God fulfills the law of sin and death so those who believe in Jesus can be sanctified by obeying Jesus' commands. God does this so the people who come for salvation can attain the level of perfection they are willing to work for.

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The law of sin and death stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, so it does not have a righteous requirement. On this he other hand, the Spirit leads us to full the righteous requirement of the Law of God leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

fli said:

When a person first comes in, they could enter heaven at that time as they are sinless and have been born from above. This does happen occasionally when the person who comes in doesn't have the faith to face withdrawal from sin, and they let Jesus put them to death physically rather than keep sinning. Jesus' love is unconditional. His love does not depend on how you conduct yourself.

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. NKJV

God fulfills the law for Christians for those who walk in the Spirit. He does this during the sanctification process for His sons. Abraham had proved he was a child of God sometime earlier during the 23 years. Yet, he continued to walk in the Spirit. If Abraham had decided to not walk in the Spirit at some point, as verse 13 states, be would have died physically and went to heaven. In heaven his faith had accomplished its goal and would be dead. Hence, the saying faith without works is dead.

James 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? NKJV

By continuing in the Spirit Abraham reached the level of perfection he was willing to work for.

To answer the question can faith without works save a person? Yes. As stated above there are people who do not have enough faith to withdraw from sin. Read 1Corinthians 11: 27-32 verse 32 those who were disciplined to death were not condemned with the world. Had they repented and quit drinking they would have continued in the sanctification process.

2 Timothy 2:11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him,


He also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. NKJV

Those who do not have faith enough to face withdrawing from sin but still let Jesus put them to death had no works. Their faith was without works yet it still got them to heaven.

The point James is making is that the only way we can see if a person has faith is to see some works from them. It's not a good indication, but it's all we have.

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That’s a little imaginative. Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of God’s law is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of the content of His gift of salvation and we can’t have the gift of salvation apart from its contents.

How do the recent replies clarify "Faith Without Works explained" ... ???
Maybe Soyeong can explain how her reply helps to clarify this threads' title ... OR ... maybe she believes it's time to correct fh. FWIW the name Soyeong can mean ...

Soyeong said:

so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is in accordance with Jesus being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), ...

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the "work" of a trustworthy Believer in Almighty God is based on ones faithfulness.

Soyeong said:

... which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

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so the Good News of the Gospel was made known in advance to Abram. The "work" of Abram's "faith" was his willing obedience to sacrifice his son, Isaac.

AbbaLove said:

How do the recent replies clarify "Faith Without Works explained" ... ???
Maybe Soyeong can explain how her reply helps to clarify this threads' title ... OR ... maybe she believes it's time to correct fh. FWIW the name Soyeong can mean ...

S is for share, your talents, time, and possessions with others​

O is for old fashioned, you cherish the past.​

Y is for youthful, your eternal look.​

E is for electric, a sparkling trait!​

O is for optimistic, look at the bright side!​

N is for nice, need I say more?​

G is for glamorous, you know what to do!​

the "work" of a trustworthy Believer in Almighty God is based on ones faithfulness.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was GOD." 14 - "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."​

so the Good News of the Gospel was made known in advance to Abram. The "work" of Abram's "faith" was his willing obedience to sacrifice his son, Isaac.

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Not sure, but it appears you may be getting fli confused with fh?

fhansen said:

Alright, I guess I just don't see James as a liar.

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Never said he was. Just because James made that statement does not make devils truth tellers in any case

fhansen said:

Jesus didn't come and die just so we could remain in our sins. He came to take them away, to free us from the slavery of the sin that leads to death while making us slaves to righteousness (Rom 6).

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I'm not aware of any person being made sinless in this present life other than God Himself in the flesh.

You?

We have dominion over sin, not eradication of sin or sinlessness. Big difference.

AbbaLove said:

How do the recent replies clarify "Faith Without Works explained" ... ???
Maybe Soyeong can explain how her reply helps to clarify this threads' title ... OR ... maybe she believes it's time to correct fh.

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fhansen said:

Not sure, but it appears you may be getting fli confused with fh?

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Maybe it's time to close this thread when your eyesight sees fli instead of fh and/or possibly uses it to sidestep thanking Soyeong for her clarification

Just a loving suggestion that you clean your glasses and/or your screen. Would be a nice touch to at least thank Soyeong for her recent clarification ?

BelieveItOarKnot said:

We have dominion over sin, not eradication of sin or sinlessness. Big difference.

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I didn't say we could become perfectly sinless. So maybe you could explain the difference between dominion over sin and eradication of sin or sinlessness.

fhansen said:

I didn't say we could become perfectly sinless. So maybe you could explain the difference between dominion over sin and eradication of sin or sinlessness.

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Dominion over is to understand we do "have sin" present tense. And this is a fact regardless of whether or not it's "seen" on the outside, ala Mark 7:21-24

When we deny this is a fact, we are technically no more than common liars and hypocrites. Those whom Jesus hated the most, BECAUSE it's demonic activity and does not show dominion over sin.

Eradication doesn't exist in this present life.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Dominion over is to understand we do "have sin" present tense. And this is a fact regardless of whether or not it's "seen" on the outside, ala Mark 7:21-24

When we deny this is a fact, we are technically no more than common liars and hypocrites. Those whom Jesus hated the most, BECAUSE it's demonic activity and does not show dominion over sin.

Eradication doesn't exist in this present life.

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Traditionally, Christianity viewed the faith as giving man power, by the Holy Spirit, by virtue of union with God, to overcome sin even as this was known to be a struggle and one which would not be fully won in this life; eradication won’t happen IOW. No room for priggishness, then, according to normal Christian teachings even if that ugly human trait, born of pride, will always lurk, will always be trying to raise its head in human circles.

fhansen said:

Traditionally, Christianity viewed the faith as giving man power, by the Holy Spirit, by virtue of union with God, to overcome sin even as this was known to be a struggle and one which would not be fully won in this life; eradication won’t happen IOW. No room for priggishness, then, according to normal Christian teachings even if that ugly human trait, born of pride, will always lurk, will always be trying to raise its head in human circles.

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There us no such thing as sin less either

If anything sin itself intensifies because it is a struggle with an adverse power that is not the person. Our adversary

Which is the primary observation. No one stops the devil(s) from doing what they do

Merely reading Mark 4:15 for example creates almost instant denial that it happens in the readers/hearers. So not only theft, but denial of His Words

The laws also give power as in resistance to the laws of God, Romans 7:7-13, 1 Cor. 15:56

There is no struggle with just a free standing person is the general point

Everyone we see is not just them. It is the person AND the tempter or his own

Once seen personally the so called struggle with sin is an absurdity because it is not even in our hands to do so. Devils do what devils do. We simply learn the difference

It's a battle that was never meant to be won

BelieveItOarKnot said:

There us no such thing as sin less either

If anything sin itself intensifies because it is a struggle with an adverse power that is not the person. Our adversary

Which is the primary observation. No one stops the devil(s) from doing what they do

Merely reading Mark 4:15 for example creates almost instant denial that it happens in the readers/hearers. So not only theft, but denial of His Words

The laws also give power as in resistance to the laws of God, Romans 7:7-13, 1 Cor. 15:56

There is no struggle with just a free standing person is the general point

Everyone we see is not just them. It is the person AND the tempter or his own

Once seen personally the so called struggle with sin is an absurdity because it is not even in our hands to do so. Devils do what devils do. We simply learn the difference

It's a battle that was never meant to be won

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Ok, think I’m understanding your position better now. Most believe that a believer at least begins to sin less, to turn away from sin especially if they’ve lived seriously wicked lives in the past. But you seem to say that God created man as a sinner and we may as well accept and get used to it instead of thinking we can ever overcome it and be righteous?

AbbaLove said:

Maybe it's time to close this thread when your eyesight sees fli instead of fh and/or possibly uses it to sidestep thanking Soyeong for her clarification

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I guess that was meant as a rational response?

AbbaLove said:

Just a loving suggestion that you clean your glasses and/or your screen. Would be a nice touch to at least thank Soyeong for her recent clarification ?

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Thanks for the love. And your advise might be possible to follow except for the fact that @Soyeong has never even addressed me in this thread.