How should have Christians historically addressed Islam?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Saturday at 9:54 PM

Hoping2 said:
You are reading too much into this.
God supplies the things I "rely" on.
The air I breath and the food I eat.

You have clarified nothing but only doubled down on your sentiment. If God alone provides everything for you and you are not in need of food or breathing then you are a disembodied spirit free from materiality. We both know that you aren't and that you do rely on others.

Hoping2 said:
Only the wicked disobey God.
I quote Jesus...Love you neighbor as you love yourself" !

Is it loving my neighbour to let them be murdered? Or to be captured as a slave as many Christians were historically?

Hoping2 said:
That doesn't sound like anything I have written before.
You seem to be misconcluding that obedience to God is necessary to live among society.
I cannot agree with that idea.

I said killing is necessary in society because of the threat and use of force. You cannot have a society without these present.

Hoping2 said:
Show me any evidence of the saints defending others in the name of Christ in the bible.
God does our protecting...not man.

There have been plenty of Saints who defended other Christians throughout history. Plenty of good Kings as well the problem is you don't consider them Christian because you are the only Christian in the last 2000 years to exist.

Hoping2 said:
Yes, and our church is named in Eph 3:21.

Where was this Church when the Muslims were invading? Can you show me their response to the Muslims?

Hoping2 said:
If they did not have my beliefs, they were not of God.
Their beliefs would have been world-flesh based.

Well no Christian in the past had your beliefs. So then they were part of a different religion and I am with them and not you.

Hoping2 said:
Not a chance.

Yes there have been plenty. Plenty of soldiers, plenty of police, plenty who did extraordinary acts in defense of others.

Hoping2 said:
I could serve God, under anyone's dominion.
I am doing it now, in the USA !
Death casts no fear, on those already dead with Christ.

And you would do it alone.

Hoping2 said:
You seem totally oblivious of the power of God.

I can see God's power throughout history in actually preserving his people through the historic Church. Your Gnostic God has not helped anyone.

Hoping2 · Saturday at 10:14 PM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You have clarified nothing but only doubled down on your sentiment.

You are not reading what I am writing.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
If God alone provides everything for you and you are not in need of food or breathing then you are a disembodied spirit free from materiality. We both know that you aren't and that you do rely on others.

Supra.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Is it loving my neighbour to let them be murdered? Or to be captured as a slave as many Christians were historically?

It is loving my neighbor to pray nothing of that sort occurs...before it can.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I said killing is necessary in society because of the threat and use of force. You cannot have a society without these present..

I am not a part of your society, so killing to preserve it is not necessary.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
There have been plenty of Saints who defended other Christians throughout history. Plenty of good Kings as well the problem is you don't consider them Christian because you are the only Christian in the last 2000 years to exist.

I disagree with the idea that those disobedient to God are either good or Christians.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Where was this Church when the Muslims were invading? Can you show me their response to the Muslims?

I have no idea where the church was.
Knowing God, however, I can imagine that He moved them from Spain before trouble happened.
If there were any Christians there at that time.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Well no Christian in the past had your beliefs.

All Christians have the same mind.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
So then they were part of a different religion and I am with them and not you.

I agree, and I am sorry they have chosen man's protection, and ways, over God's ways and protection.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Yes there have been plenty. Plenty of soldiers, plenty of police, plenty who did extraordinary acts in defense of others.

They may indeed defended others, but their motives where not pure.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
And you would do it alone.

I know that to be untrue.
There are men and women that love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I can see God's power throughout history in actually preserving his people through the historic Church. Your Gnostic God has not helped anyone.

I see God's power in the survival of the OT sons of Jacob in Egypt.
They came through much persecution, without fighting back; to the glory of God.
I do not see them fighting against their oppressors.
Where they gnostics
I see Paul putting up with much persecution, without replying with violence.
Was he a gnostic ?
Or was he faithful to God in all things ?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Saturday at 10:37 PM

Hoping2 said:
You are not reading what I am writing

I am. You are repeatedly claiming to be beyond reliance on people and material things. As such you're essentially claiming to be sustained by God alone. It's a very Gnostic point of view which considers all intermediary powers as unimportant.

Hoping2 said:
It is loving my neighbor to pray nothing of that sort occurs...before it can

Many who lived prayed for deliverance from evil and yet God allowed them to suffer deprivation. You have previously said that God wouldn't let a Christian suffer murder or rape, despite us knowing that good and faithful men and women have suffered exactly those things.

Hoping2 said:
I am not a part of your society, so killing to preserve it is not necessary.

You're not part of any society or community. Thus no one cares if you were to die.

Hoping2 said:
I have no idea where the church was.
Knowing God, however, I can imagine that He moved them from Spain before trouble happened.
If there were any Christians there at that time.

You have no idea where the Church was because your Church did not exist. There were no Christians with your convictions or confession during that time.

Hoping2 said:
All Christians have the same mind.

Actually we don't. Though most Christians agree with me that we can rightfully defend ourselves.

Hoping2 said:
I agree, and I am sorry they have chosen man's protection, and ways, over God's ways and protection.

You seem to create a dichotomy. As if God could not use a man to protect someone. Historically Christians did rely on each other for help and protection.

Hoping2 said:
They may indeed defended others, but their motives where not pure.

No one's motives are ever pure. We all evil to some extent but that doesn't make the action of defending a man from murder or a woman from rape immoral and therefore we shouldn't do defend them.

Do you consider it more morally acceptable to allow a murder to happen than to stop it?

Hoping2 said:
I know that to be untrue.
There are men and women that love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength.

And they defended those who were closest to them. There were no pacifist Christians with your mind. They didn't exist.

Hoping2 said:
I see God's power in the survival of the OT sons of Jacob in Egypt.
They came through much persecution, without fighting back; to the glory of God.
I do not see them fighting against their oppressors.
Where they gnostics
I see Paul putting up with much persecution, without replying with violence.
Was he a gnostic ?
Or was he faithful to God in all things ?

Paul was not a Gnostic. The Romans were not the Muslims. They successfully resisted attempts by Christians to convert them via the methods Christians used to convert the Romans by being utterly intolerant of prosyltization.

Hoping2 · Saturday at 10:51 PM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I am. You are repeatedly claiming to be beyond reliance on people and material things. As such you're essentially claiming to be sustained by God alone. It's a very Gnostic point of view which considers all intermediary powers as unimportant.

I know nothing of gnosticism, but what I do know is that God has supplied all my needs.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Many who lived prayed for deliverance from evil and yet God allowed them to suffer deprivation.

Yes, and for His eventual glory.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You have previously said that God wouldn't let a Christian suffer murder or rape, despite us knowing that good and faithful men and women have suffered exactly those things.

Where have is written that ?
Paul was murdered, and so where the other apostles.
I do trust God to keep His children safe from all assailants.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You're not part of any society or community. Thus no one cares if you were to die.

Will you now build a society based on that premise ?
Or does it already exist ?
The fallen world won't care if Christians, or anyone else, are killed.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You have no idea where the Church was because your Church did not exist. There were no Christians with your convictions or confession during that time.

Then Paul was a deceiver for writhing Eph 3:21.
I don't agree.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Actually we don't. Though most Christians agree with me that we can rightfully defend ourselves.

The disobedient are not of Christ.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You seem to create a dichotomy. As if God could not use a man to protect someone. Historically Christians did rely on each other for help and protection.

NT scripture, please.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
No one's motives are ever pure. We all evil to some extent but that doesn't make the action of defending a man from murder or a woman from rape immoral and therefore we shouldn't do defend them.

Your only cite the motives of the unconverted/unrepentant.
It is those still walking in and after the "flesh", that you use as examples.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Do you consider it more morally acceptable to allow a murder to happen than to stop it?

Hypotheticals don't interest me.
Pray for God's guidance and protection from such occurrences before they happen, and He will make it so.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
And they defended those who were closest to them. There were no pacifist Christians with your mind. They didn't exist.

NT scripture please.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Paul was not a Gnostic. The Romans were not the Muslims. They successfully resisted attempts by Christians to convert them via the methods Christians used to convert the Romans by being utterly intolerant of prosyltization.

The same resistance will hamper the preachers of righteousness until the Lord's return.
Thankfully, some really want to do the Lord's will.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Saturday at 11:01 PM

Hoping2 said:
I know nothing of gnosticism, but what I do know is that God has supplied all my needs.

I actually know quite a bit about it as a historic movement. They died out in history which is why you can't find any of them in history. Your kinsmen in faith ceased to exist.

Hoping2 said:
Yes, and for His eventual glory.

Ah so they were murdered and raped for God's glory. Does preventing murder and rape prevent your God receiving glory as well?

Hoping2 said:
Where have is written that ?
Paul was murdered, and so where the other apostles.
I do trust God to keep His children safe from all assailants.

Except God didnt keep your brothers and sisters safe. They all died out. You are the only true believer since the Apostles.

Hoping2 said:
Will you now build a society based on that premise ?
Or does it already exist ?
The fallen world won't care if Christians, or anyone else, are killed.

All societies are built on the premise of order and organizing of society. It's not about me building anything.

Hoping2 said:
The disobedient are not of Christ.

Which is why you and me are not brothers in Christ. You deny all other Christians except yourself. Which is fine but you are alone.

Hoping2 said:
Your only cite the motives of the unconverted/unrepentant.
It is those still walking in and after the "flesh", that you use as examples.

Hoping2 said:
Hypotheticals don't interest me.
Pray for God's guidance and protection from such occurrences before they happen, and He will make it so.

They don't interest you because you can't deal with them. It's not hard to answer. Is preventing a murder more sinful than allowing the murder to go ahead?

Hoping2 said:
The same resistance will hamper the preachers of righteousness until the Lord's return.
Thankfully, some really want to do the Lord's will.

Your church had no preachers during the time of Islamic expansion so I don't see any point in continuing this. You aren't part of the historic Christian Church and your fellow Gnostics ceased to exist. So I guess it's not relevant for you.

stevevw · 2025-08-10T00:34:26-0500

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
To be more specific, How should have Christians historically addressed Islam within a Christian moral framework?

I have often been surprised at the historic illiteracy of many who I've discussed this question with here on these forums who seem utterly unaware or hopelessly naive about the problem Islam posed to Christianity. Islam being a violently expansionist religion which imposed harsh restrictions on it's Dhimmi populations.

Often the assumption seems to be it is the fault of Christians living at the time who failed to evangelise properly within Islamic realms that caused Islam to spread. That the wars fought by Christians (crusades for example), were entirely un Christlike and represent a failure of medieval Christianity which we have to repent of.

So if we are to reject the medieval reaction to Islam in favour of a modern liberal acceptance and tolerance of Islam, do we then condemn Christians in the past in their response to Islam? That modern society is better in it's response to Islam? That Islam should become have had a presence in the Christian world sooner? Were Christians in the past wrong to keep Islam out of their realms?

I think you have hit on an important aspect to the issue of Christianity and how it is placed within the world when it comes to other religions and ideologies.

I think in a postmodern society that even many churches have been influenced by this idea that we must accept all the different cultures and their beliefs as part of being Christlike.

This is true as to the basic truth there there is no Jews, Gentiles or slaves and masters. But its not true as far as the Christian God and His Son Christs truths and teachings.

Christ and the disciples and especially Paul mention that the wolves would come and there would be false teachers even fooling Christians. The modern idea that we must tolerate different religions opens the door for accepting them and their religion as well. That just standing on Christs authority to differentiate and rebuke such different ideas is seen as hateful to modern society and some churches.

This is a trick of satan to deminish Christs truth and authority and God the Father. The Islamist knew this. That is why they claim that Mohummad is the last revealer of Gods truth. Which just so happens to denounce specifically Christ which is at the heart of Christianity.

In otherwords this was just another version be it a significant one that is attempting to deminish and deny the truth of Christ which destinguishes Gods truth and word in this world.

stevevw · 2025-08-10T01:12:59-0500

The most obvious elephant in the room is that the Muslims came into Jerusalem and conquered the Jews and Christians and took from them their most holy mountain to claim it theirs 600 odd years after Christ and some 1500 years after the Isrealites built their Temple on the same mount.

The crazy thing is while all these social justice warriors are trumpeting Islams rights they are very quiet on legitimate connection between the Jews and the mount of which Christ will return. If we look under the surface we find lots of evidence for the Isrealites. Something the Islamists want to hide.

That in itself is enough to dismiss the Islamists claims that this is in the name of God.

chevyontheriver · 2025-08-10T02:44:28-0500

Hoping2 said:
I don't know where I would have ended up, in this hypothetical situation.

Even the Muslims prefer money over complete obedience to their own "book".

I trust God to keep me from such hypothetical situations.

Like the North African ‘hypothetical situation’ where the choice was be Muslim or die.

Hoping2 · 2025-08-10T13:52:08-0500

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I actually know quite a bit about it as a historic movement. They died out in history which is why you can't find any of them in history. Your kinsmen in faith ceased to exist.

If they don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and that Jesus made it possible to crucify the "flesh" and to walk in the Spirit...they are not kinsmen in the faith.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Ah so they were murdered and raped for God's glory.

You are adding to scripture.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Does preventing murder and rape prevent your God receiving glory as well?

What do you think ?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Except God didnt keep your brothers and sisters safe. They all died out. You are the only true believer since the Apostles.

You lust be alluding to the gnostics again.
That is your error here.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
All societies are built on the premise of order and organizing of society. It's not about me building anything.

You have gone off the tracks.
I don't know what you are talking about anymore.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Which is why you and me are not brothers in Christ. You deny all other Christians except yourself. Which is fine but you are alone.

If you have no fear of God, you are not my brother in Christ.
I am not alone.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
They don't interest you because you can't deal with them. It's not hard to answer. Is preventing a murder more sinful than allowing the murder to go ahead?

I will keep praying that God doesn't put me in a situation where I need to use violence to save myself or others.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Your church had no preachers during the time of Islamic expansion so I don't see any point in continuing this.

The gates of hell cannot prevail over the church by Christ Jesus.
We have been here since the beginning.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You aren't part of the historic Christian Church

I disagree.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
and your fellow Gnostics ceased to exist.

Isn't that some kind of oxymoron ?
If they don't exist, then I can't be one of them.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
So I guess it's not relevant for you.

It is of no interest to me.

Hoping2 · 2025-08-10T13:54:01-0500

chevyontheriver said:
Like the North African ‘hypothetical situation’ where the choice was be Muslim or die.

You forgot about just moving away.
You forgot about trusting God to keep some things from occurring.

Ignatius the Kiwi · 2025-08-10T13:56:17-0500

Hoping2 said:
If they don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and that Jesus made it possible to crucify the "flesh" and to walk in the Spirit...they are not kinsmen in the faith.

You are adding to scripture.

What do you think ?

You lust be alluding to the gnostics again.
That is your error here.

You have gone off the tracks.
I don't know what you are talking about anymore.

If you have no fear of God, you are not my brother in Christ.
I am not alone.

I will keep praying that God doesn't put me in a situation where I need to use violence to save myself or others.

The gates of hell cannot prevail over the church by Christ Jesus.
We have been here since the beginning.

I disagree.

Isn't that some kind of oxymoron ?
If they don't exist, then I can't be one of them.

It is of no interest to me.

There is little point in continuing this Hoping because you represent a belief system which is utterly unique to you with no grounding in anything which came before you.

Your solution is no solution and it could have only had lead to Christianity all but ceasing to exist. And I prefer how past Christians dealt with Islam to your strategy of being a beautiful loser.

Thus you can't relate to past Christians who faced these challenges because they were not your brothers and sisters in the faith. If you believe stopping a murderer is immoral then we serve different Gods. Have a good day.

Hoping2 · 2025-08-10T13:59:24-0500

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
There is little point in continuing this Hoping because you represent a belief system which is utterly unique to you with no grounding in anything which came before you.

It is called, faith in a God who loves me.
It is not unique.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Thus you can't relate to past Christians who faced these challenges because they were not your brothers and sisters in the faith. If you believe stopping a murderer is immoral then we serve different Gods. Have a good day.

I don't relate to anyone who has no faith.

Ignatius the Kiwi · 2025-08-10T14:04:35-0500

Hoping2 said:
It is called, faith in a God who loves me.
It is not unique.

I don't relate to anyone who has no faith.

Aside from yourself Hoping can you point to any Christian who you consider a fellow believer during the time of Islamic expansion? I can point out people, St John of Damascus, Maximos the Confessor and plenty of others.

Real people who existed and lived Christian lives. But you couldn't consider these men and women Christians because they worked with the political order of their time which used force to defend fellow believers.

This conversation is unproductive because we are on two radically different poles. You prefer evil to succeed. I don't.

Hoping2 · 2025-08-10T14:09:10-0500

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Aside from yourself Hoping can you point to any Christian who you consider a fellow believer during the time of Islamic expansion? I can point out people, St John of Damascus, Maximos the Confessor and plenty of others.

Real people who existed and lived Christian lives. But you couldn't consider these men and women Christians because they worked with the political order of their time which used force to defend fellow believers.

This conversation is unproductive because we are on two radically different poles. You prefer evil to succeed. I don't.

I prefer for God's will to be done, and not my own will.

Ignatius the Kiwi · 2025-08-10T14:10:23-0500

Hoping2 said:
I prefer for God's will to be done, and not my own will.

Which when you practice it, means allowing murder, kidnapping and rape to go unpunished. You are outsourcing the responsibility to deal with evil to God alone and thus you are supporting people who do evil by telling those who would stop them that they are guilty of greater evil.

Your worldview is immoral and evil Hoping.

Hoping2 · 2025-08-10T14:14:16-0500

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Which when you practice it, means allowing murder, kidnapping and rape to go unpunished. You are outsourcing the responsibility to deal with evil to God alone and thus you are supporting people who do evil by telling those who would stop them that they are guilty of greater evil.

You are calling God immoral, for allowing the things of the devil to be done.
My actions cannot thwart what He wants done on earth.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Your worldview is immoral and evil Hoping.

Trusting God, is indeed not of this world.

Ignatius the Kiwi · 2025-08-10T14:15:31-0500

Hoping2 said:
You are calling God immoral, for allowing the things of the devil to be done.
My actions cannot thwart what He wants done on earth.

Trusting God, is indeed not of this world.

I'm calling you evil for not doing what is your duty. To do good. That you would rather a woman be raped than stop the rape is evil. It's also suicidal and no society can live under those conditions.

Hoping2 · 2025-08-10T14:26:20-0500

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I'm calling you evil for not doing what is your duty. To do good. That you would rather a woman be raped than stop the rape is evil. It's also suicidal and no society can live under those conditions.

I thank God for keeping me from ever being in a situation where I need to use violence to help myself or others.
And I pray every day that He will keep doing so.
When men depend on their own strength, disaster ensues.

chevyontheriver · 2025-08-10T14:28:00-0500

Hoping2 said:
You forgot about just moving away.
You forgot about trusting God to keep some things from occurring.

I guess it’s easy to ‘just move away’ when they have burned your village, taken your daughters as sex slaves, and issued the ultimatum to become Muslim or die.

Ignatius the Kiwi · 2025-08-10T14:28:28-0500

Hoping2 said:
I thank God for keeping me from ever being in a situation where I need to use violence to help myself or others.
And I pray every day that He will keep doing so.

And you condemn those who suffer such violence as being condemned by God and obviously not true followers. And if you saw someone being violated so you would do nothing to help. You allow evil to win by inaction.

How should have Christians historically addressed Islam?

Dissident

Well-Known Member

Dissident

Well-Known Member

Dissident

inquisitive

inquisitive

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Dissident

Well-Known Member

Dissident

Well-Known Member

Dissident

Well-Known Member

Dissident

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Dissident

Similar threads