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Shall we continue with the sinful nature till the body is changed?

reddogs

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Take a look at this presentation by Walter Veith and see what he is saying. Do we keep our sinful nature till Christ changes our body?



Or do we stop sinning once we are sealed and rid ourselves of the sinful nature at the close of probation?

Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
 

SabbathBlessings

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Take a look at this presentation by Walter Veith and see what he is saying. Do we keep our sinful nature till Christ changes our body?



Or do we stop sinning once we are sealed and rid ourselves of the sinful nature at the close of probation?

Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
I watched this video and from what I gathered they said we won't sin after the close of probation, but we lose our sinful nature at His return when our bodies are transformed.
 
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reddogs

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I watched this video and from what I gathered they said we won't sin after the close of probation, but we lose our sinful nature at His return when our bodies are transformed.
1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Well, the body will retain its corrupt sinful nature till it is transformed, but the mind the thinking and spiritual part is what is transformed into what is the 'mind of Christ' and be able to stand blameless and sanctified when Christ comes.

2 Timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

And we see 'perfecting holiness' and 'washed', 'sanctified,,' and 'justified' through faith and the grace of God.

Well here are some statements from SOP to ponder...

"Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own" [Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 69.].

"Exact obedience is required, and those who say that it is not possible to live a perfect life, throw upon God the imputation of injustice and untruth." [Manuscript Releases, vol. 1, p. 369.].

"Therefore he (Satan) is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome." [The Great Controversy, p. 489.].

"God has plainly stated that He expects us to be perfect, and because He expects this, He has made provision for us to be partakers of the divine nature. Only thus can we gain success in striving for eternal life. The power is given by Christ." [Our High Calling, p. 213.].

"So perfect is the character represented which men must have in order to be Christ’s disciples that the infidel has said that it is not possible for any human being to attain unto it. But no less a standard must be presented by all who claim to be children of God. Infidels know not that celestial aid is provided for all who seek for it by faith. Every provision has been made in behalf of every soul who shall seek to be a partaker of the divine nature and be complete in Jesus Christ. Every defect is to be discerned and cut away from the character with an unsparing decision." [-In Heavenly Places, p. 201.].

"When our earthly labors are ended, and Christ shall come for His faithful children, we shall then shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father. But before that time shall come, everything that is imperfect in us will have been seen and put away. All envy and jealousy and evil surmising and every selfish plan will have been banished from the life. "[Selected Messages, vol. 3, p. 427].

"Wrong habits must be overcome. Right habits must be formed. Under the discipline of the greatest Teacher the world has ever known, Christians must move onward and upward toward perfection. This is God's command, and no one should say, I cannot do it. He should say instead, God requires me to be perfect, and He will give me strength to overcome all that stands in the way of perfection. He is the source of all wisdom, all power...." {Reflecting Christ 164.2}

"And we have this well know one from Christ's Object Lessons, page 69: 'Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.'"
 
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SabbathBlessings

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1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Well, the body will retain its corrupt sinful nature till it is transformed, but the mind the thinking and spiritual part is what is transformed into what is the 'mind of Christ' and be able to stand blameless and sanctified when Christ comes.

2 Timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

And we see 'perfecting holiness' and 'washed', 'sanctified,,' and 'justified' through faith and the grace of God.

Well here are some statements from SOP to ponder...

"Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own" [Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 69.].

"Exact obedience is required, and those who say that it is not possible to live a perfect life, throw upon God the imputation of injustice and untruth." [Manuscript Releases, vol. 1, p. 369.].

"Therefore he (Satan) is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome." [The Great Controversy, p. 489.].

"God has plainly stated that He expects us to be perfect, and because He expects this, He has made provision for us to be partakers of the divine nature. Only thus can we gain success in striving for eternal life. The power is given by Christ." [Our High Calling, p. 213.].

"So perfect is the character represented which men must have in order to be Christ’s disciples that the infidel has said that it is not possible for any human being to attain unto it. But no less a standard must be presented by all who claim to be children of God. Infidels know not that celestial aid is provided for all who seek for it by faith. Every provision has been made in behalf of every soul who shall seek to be a partaker of the divine nature and be complete in Jesus Christ. Every defect is to be discerned and cut away from the character with an unsparing decision." [-In Heavenly Places, p. 201.].

"When our earthly labors are ended, and Christ shall come for His faithful children, we shall then shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father. But before that time shall come, everything that is imperfect in us will have been seen and put away. All envy and jealousy and evil surmising and every selfish plan will have been banished from the life. "[Selected Messages, vol. 3, p. 427].
Walter Vieth is not teaching we should sin and does teach we need to be perfect but can only do that through Christ. His point was we will have a sinful nature until the close of probation. Do you have anything that shows we can't sin before the close of probation?
 
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reddogs

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Walter Vieth is not teaching we should sin and does teach we need to be perfect but can only do that through Christ. His point was we will have a sinful nature until the close of probation. Do you have anything that shows we can't sin before the close of probation?
The thing is, Walter is saying we will continue having a 'sinful nature' till our bodies are changed at the second coming from corruptible (or sinful nature) to incorruptible (or perfect bodies like Adam), and he doesnt clarify what he means by that or go further into the text it refers to. Now the problem is that if our minds are corrupted and full of sin and iniquity, the Christ will turn us aside at the Second Coming and say 'I do not know you'.

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Our minds must be transformed and sanctified before, at the close of probation and sealed so that iniquity doesnt work in our minds from temptation of Satan and evil thoughts can no longer come upon us. Our bodies are what will have the corruptible sinful nature till the end, our minds must be changed before Christ comes.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

And it is by faith through Christ.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

And we see that we are sealed unto everlasting life thought this change, so its not the change or transformation of the body.

John 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us,
and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

And it happens before the Second Coming..

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Revelation 7:3

Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

We are sealed and prepared to face Christ at His coming and then our bodies are transformed as "we shall all be changed", the resurrected dead as well as those alive on earth, back to what they were in the Garden of Eden before sin so death can be overcome.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The thing is, Walter is saying we will continue having a 'sinful nature' till our bodies are changed at the second coming from corruptible (or sinful nature) to incorruptible (or perfect bodies like Adam), and he doesnt clarify what he means by that
I have watched a lot of his videos and he has never promoted sinning or that we can't overcome, he believes we can be made perfect through Christ

This below is not what he is saying
Now the problem is that if our minds are corrupted and full of sin and iniquity, the Christ will turn us aside at the Second Coming and say 'I do not know you'.

A sinful nature does not mean one has to give into sin. There is a difference and this is the distinction I believe he is making. I agree with Walter on this, that we are not going to lose our sinful nature until Jesus changes our bodies, but it doesn't mean through the power of the Holy Spirit and having a right relationship with Jesus that we will need to give into sin and temptation. We can overcome just as He Heb 4:15



Happy Sabbath!
 
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reddogs

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I have watched a lot of his videos and he has never promoted sinning or that we can't overcome, he believes we can be made perfect through Christ

This below is not what he is saying


A sinful nature does not mean one has to give into sin. There is a difference and this is the distinction I believe he is making. I agree with Walter on this, that we are not going to lose our sinful nature until Jesus changes our bodies, but it doesn't mean through the power of the Holy Spirit and having a right relationship with Jesus that we will need to give into sin and temptation. We can overcome just as He Heb 4:15



Happy Sabbath!
Well. my wife is telling me to take a deep breath and watch it again. But I feel he did not make clear what he means when using 'sinful nature'. If its our corrupted bodies then it is fine but he needs to make that clear, and I think this is one of the reasons he gets into trouble with the brethren. He tends to go out on a limb it seems or get into issues better left untouched like the '6000 years that SOP gives till the end'?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Well. my wife is telling me to watch it again, as I feel he did not make clear what he means when using 'sinful nature'. If its our corrupted bodies then it is fine but needs to make that clear, and I think this is the reason he gets into trouble with the brethren. He tends to go out on a limb it seems or get into issues better left untouched like the '6000 years that SOP gives till the end'?
Listen to you wife. :)

There is another video he makes his point clear - I'll see if I can find it.

I think he is like a modern day Paul- can be hard to understand. He is German, and typically have a much different sense of humor. My grandparents were German maybe that's why I can relate to his way of speaking. He often speaks about why he gets in trouble with the brethern and its been mainly over he promoting the SOP and talking about who the beast is (the same as who the reformers believed) that some SDA leaders no longer agree with sadly. He is also often misquoted.

God bless!
 
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