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How should have Christians historically addressed Islam?

Ignatius the Kiwi

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The naval Battle of Lepanto and the Siege of Vienna were two pivital events that kept us from all being Muslim.

This would imply that a certain amount of martial spirit is required by Christians in order to preserve their societies. I agree completely, if not for the Reconquista, Siege of Malta, Battle of Tours or numerous other battles which defended Christian society from the encroachment of Islamic society we would not be Christians today.

I suppose the problem i have is with a certain subset of pacifist Christians who insist that we have no duty to defend one another or excercise power in our own interest. They seemingly would consider fighting against the Muslims as the worst thing Christians could have done and evidence that those who did fight against the Muslims as non Christians.
Islam was never not a military and political movement to take land and peoples by force.
Absolutely. It successfully took over and repressed Christianity in the regions it conquered.
 
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com7fy8

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How should have Christians historically addressed Islam within a Christian moral framework?
Well, yes ones claiming to be Christians have done evil to Muslims. And ones claiming Christianity have done evil to native sovereign peoples who were conquered by the United States. And Mexicans have been massacred by ones of the United States while the U.S.A. is said to have been a Christian country. And there has been a lot of hating against Muslims and Hispanics and "Indians" . . . hating by U.S.A. citizens; and this has not been obviously confronted and corrected by whoever was in power.

I would say a ***functionally*** Christian nation of people would not have gone along with that sort of massacring and hating and then keeping the lands which were taken by means of cruelty and hatred and murder.

So . . . in case the main part of the U.S.A. population and politicians have never been truly Christian . . . Jesus says, "without Me you can do nothing", in John 15:5. Therefore, I would say you can not expect non-Christian people to do what is moral.

And if such ones are still operating, today, you can not expect them to do what is "moral" with Muslims or even their own selves. They would ***already*** have done what is right, if they really were in power to do so. And ones not really right are not going to do what is really good.

It looks like in "American" history, there never have been functionally Christian leaders with enough power to do what is right with Indians and Mexicans and other Hispanics and Muslims. There has not been obvious loving others as oneself, politically or by the main part of church culture groups.

But in the United States, in my opinion, we do have the underground church of Jesus Christ's genuinely obedient ones. These might not have a great show of political and church culture power, but the obedient do have the only real influence . . . by means of however God manages "things". And this power works through prayer, example, and however else Jesus has His true church ministering.

So, how do ones of Jesus Christ's underground American church operate, concerning Muslims??

My opinion > first, ones see how "the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God" "first" > 1 Peter 4:17. And therefore God's obedient children are first and mainly evaluating how they themselves are becoming and loving like Jesus . . . and how they are not. And this is getting their main attention. Because, by maturing in Jesus we can do what really will matter and work. By being underground > "rooted and grounded in love" (in Ephesians 3:17) > we are operating in "faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6), and therefore we can accomplish the most . . . like how the obedience of Abraham has gotten God's all-loving results > getting "all the nations of the earth" "blessed" > Genesis 22:18.

By obeying our Heavenly Father who is all-loving, we get His all-loving results . . . not only blessing our own selves and families and favorite churches and favorite country and "Israel" > but all are loved and blessed through our obedience, however our Father rules us in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

In God's own peace we have our Creator's own creativity for how to love any and all people. And this harmony of God's love in us perfectly satisfies and guides and encourages us in Heaven's own goodness and rest in such sharing with God Himself in us. So, do not accept and compromise with less.

God knows the secrets of every person's heart, and He is now having things work out in His favor of whomever He knows is truly honoring Him and staying submissive to how He rules us in His own peace. Ruling every thought and feeling and idea and emotion in our hearts, and doing all which comes from here :)
 
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Hentenza

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chevyontheriver

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This would imply that a certain amount of martial spirit is required by Christians in order to preserve their societies. I agree completely, if not for the Reconquista, Siege of Malta, Battle of Tours or numerous other battles which defended Christian society from the encroachment of Islamic society we would not be Christians today.

I suppose the problem i have is with a certain subset of pacifist Christians who insist that we have no duty to defend one another or excercise power in our own interest. They seemingly would consider fighting against the Muslims as the worst thing Christians could have done and evidence that those who did fight against the Muslims as non Christians.

Absolutely. It successfully took over and repressed Christianity in the regions it conquered.
North Africa was Christian. It is now Muslim. Turkey was Christian. Syria was Christian. .In In our own lifetimes Lebanon was Christian. Gaza had a Christian presence that is only now being pushed out. Islam is now making headway in Europe, not by military force for a change, as a minority for now, beginning to flex it's power. But for the most part Islam has used the sword to grow. All the way back to Mohammed.
 
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Hoping2

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Okay and how this translate into action taken on our part?
If I, a (single) Christian, were there at that time, I would have asked God to show me what to do.
If He preferred not to answer, my natural tendency would have been to move away from the troubled area.
Money and property are not worth dying for.
If He told me to stay, I may have been the one through whom He worked to turn some of the invaders into brothers in Christ.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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If I, a (single) Christian, were there at that time, I would have asked God to show me what to do.
If He preferred not to answer, my natural tendency would have been to move away from the troubled area.
Money and property are not worth dying for.
If He told me to stay, I may have been the one through whom He worked to turn some of the invaders into brothers in Christ.
Run away to where? How would you have converted the Muslims by living among them while being subject to Islamic law as a Dhimmi?

We've had discussions before where you seemed to indicate that only God can be relied upon for miraculous protection. The Christian is not free to defend himself or others. Is this still your position?
 
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Hoping2

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Revealed prophecy, whatever people prophesy must be according to what has been revealed ( Revelation 22:18-19).
Of course.
Prophesy of future events must be fulfilled in order to verify that a prophet is of God.
And, it will never counter what has already been written.
I should have been more thorough.
No big deal.
 
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Hoping2

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Run away to where?
Most likely...France.
How would you have converted the Muslims by living among them while being subject to Islamic law as a Dhimmi?
I understand that the Muslims allow a fee to be paid by unbelievers of allah, for certain liberties.
Perhaps some would see me resisting, and start to question their own beliefs.
Or even my testimony of Jesus Christ at death may have been a "prick" to their consciences, like Paul experienced.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Most likely...France.
And you'd rely on the power and protection of the French Kings and nobility to protect you? While condemning them as a Christian for protecting you from Muslims to the South in Spain?
I understand that the Muslims allow a fee to be paid by unbelievers of allah, for certain liberties.
Perhaps some would see me resisting, and start to question their own beliefs.
Or even my testimony of Jesus Christ at death may have been a "prick" to their consciences, like Paul experienced.
There have been plenty of Christian martyrs in Islamic lands throughout history and none of them lead to mass conversions in Islamic society. At least that I'm aware of. What actually lead to more conversions and more Christians was the Reconquista.
 
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Hoping2

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And you'd rely on the power and protection of the French Kings and nobility to protect you?
I rely on no man to protect me.
God is my strong tower.
While condemning them as a Christian for protecting you from Muslims to the South in Spain?
Where have I mentioned condemning anyone ?
There have been plenty of Christian martyrs in Islamic lands throughout history and none of them lead to mass conversions in Islamic society. At least that I'm aware of.
Numbers make no difference to God.
One real convert weighs as much as ten thousand fakes.
What actually lead to more conversions and more Christians was the Reconquista.
Sounds like the Islamic way ! Convert or die !
Subjection to whoever is in charge.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I rely on no man to protect me.
God is my strong tower.
No true as we all rely on men and women in our lives. No one is free from reliance on material conditions.
Where have I mentioned condemning anyone ?
Would you say the man who kills another man is guilty of evil and sin?
Numbers make no difference to God.
One real convert weighs as much as ten thousand fakes.
So you'd prefer it if there were only 1000 Christians rarher than a billion?
Sounds like the Islamic way ! Convert or die !
Subjection to whoever is in charge.
Well in the case of Spain it was convert or be exiled. But the middle ages weren't as simplistic as that. There was repression and tolerance at times. El Cid worked for Muslim rulers at times as well as for Christian Kings.

But yes in mamy ways Christians had to respond to Islam and the way you're suggesting they ought to have responded would have resulted in failure because Islam as a religion and civilisation does not respect weakness.
 
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Hoping2

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No true as we all rely on men and women in our lives. No one is free from reliance on material conditions.
I walk in the Spirit now, and not in the flesh.
I rely only on God.
Would you say the man who kills another man is guilty of evil and sin?
Yes, as that is a work of the "flesh".
So you'd prefer it if there were only 1000 Christians rarher than a billion?
A thousand real Christians.
Well in the case of Spain it was convert or be exiled.
Was that the Moslem, or the allegedly Christian, policy ?
But the middle ages weren't as simplistic as that. There was repression and tolerance at times. El Cid worked for Muslim rulers at times as well as for Christian Kings.
The double minded man is unstable in all his ways. (James 1:8)
Where was his heart ?
But yes in mamy ways Christians had to respond to Islam and the way you're suggesting they ought to have responded would have resulted in failure because Islam as a religion and civilisation does not respect weakness.
Is caving-in to some religion "strength" ?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I walk in the Spirit now, and not in the flesh.
I rely only on God.
You are a body. You eat. You live. You socialize. You not a disembodied spirit detached from all material reality.
Yes, as that is a work of the "flesh".
You said you would flee to France if you were in the position of a medieval Spainard. Yet at the same time you condemn those who take life as sinners who should not take lives. Yet you also rely on the protection of a King to allow you to exist as a Christian. Although they might have regarded you as some kind of Gnostic based on what you previously said so why you'd flee to France is beyond me. You'd likely be considered a heretic, historically speaking.
A thousand real Christians.
And therefore a world utterly different to the one you live in now
Was that the Moslem, or the allegedly Christian, policy ?
Towards the end of the Reconquista the policy was explusion of the Moriscos. During the Reconquista when there were significant Islamic powers present within Spain it was different.
The double minded man is unstable in all his ways. (James 1:8)
Where was his heart ?
El Cid was a soldier who was exiled by the Castillian court. He fought for whom could afford him and used the political reality of his day to his advantage. This ultimately lead him to conquering Valancia from Islamic control. Wouldn't your advice to El Cid and other Christians soldiers simply be to surrender control of all territory to the Muslims?
Is caving-in to some religion "strength" ?
I'd say what you're offering is caving into the strength of Islam. You offer the Muslim nothing and had Christians followed your teaching we would all be Muslims today.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Most likely...France.
A suburb of Paris, perhaps, where Sharia Law is already popular?
I understand that the Muslims allow a fee to be paid by unbelievers of allah, for certain liberties.
Depending on the place, Muslims demand a fee to be paid by unbelievers in lieu of their martyrdom. I never experienced this personally while living in a Muslim country.
Perhaps some would see me resisting, and start to question their own beliefs.
Or even my testimony of Jesus Christ at death may have been a "prick" to their consciences, like Paul experienced.
Do it with your eyes open. 21 New Martyrs of Libya Icon - S100
 
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Hoping2

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You are a body. You eat. You live. You socialize. You not a disembodied spirit detached from all material reality.
I have a vessel, but it is the temple of the Holy Spirit now.
I walk in the Spirit, and not in and after the "flesh".
By "flesh", I mean, the worldly oriented mind.
You said you would flee to France if you were in the position of a medieval Spainard.
I see fleeing as better than fighting.
Yet at the same time you condemn those who take life as sinners who should not take lives.
Jesus will do the condemning, for disobeying Him and His command to love our neighbors.
I condemn no one.
Yet you also rely on the protection of a King to allow you to exist as a Christian.
You seem to think that is a bad thing.
Why ?
Do you prefer murder to flight ?
Although they might have regarded you as some kind of Gnostic based on what you previously said so why you'd flee to France is beyond me.
I wouldn't want to serve a false god.
You'd likely be considered a heretic, historically speaking.
All those walking in and after the "flesh" consider the children of God as heretics.
And therefore a world utterly different to the one you live in now
Not as different than you might think.
Towards the end of the Reconquista the policy was explusion of the Moriscos. During the Reconquista when there were significant Islamic powers present within Spain it was different.
That didn't answer my question.
Was expulsion the policy of the Moors or of the allegedly Christians ?
El Cid was a soldier who was exiled by the Castillian court. He fought for whom could afford him and used the political reality of his day to his advantage. This ultimately lead him to conquering Valancia from Islamic control. Wouldn't your advice to El Cid and other Christians soldiers simply be to surrender control of all territory to the Muslims?
I see no Christian soldiers, anywhere.
Murder, is for murderers.
I'd say what you're offering is caving into the strength of Islam. You offer the Muslim nothing and had Christians followed your teaching we would all be Muslims today.
They would be French...had they remained in France till now.
What I offer Muslims now is what I would have offered them a thousand years ago...freedom from the devil, "flesh", and condemnation by God.
 
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Hoping2

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A suburb of Paris, perhaps, where Sharia Law is already popular?
I don't know where I would have ended up, in this hypothetical situation.
Depending on the place, Muslims demand a fee to be paid by unbelievers in lieu of their martyrdom. I never experienced this personally while living in a Muslim country.
Even the Muslims prefer money over complete obedience to their own "book".
Do it with your eyes open.
I trust God to keep me from such hypothetical situations.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I have a vessel, but it is the temple of the Holy Spirit now.
I walk in the Spirit, and not in and after the "flesh".
By "flesh", I mean, the worldly oriented mind.
No you have a physical body which Christ redeemed via his own incarnation and resurrection. You think, like the Gnostics did, that you are beyond this prude matter but you are not. You will always have a physical body, even after the resurrection.
I see fleeing as better than fighting.
If every Christian had followed this advice then we would not be Christians today. Fighting was necessary to preserve Christianity.
Jesus will do the condemning, for disobeying Him and His command to love our neighbors.
I condemn no one.
You do. You consider someone who kills a murderer. Therefore you are condemning them even if they kill for a just reason.
You seem to think that is a bad thing.
Why ?
Do you prefer murder to flight ?
I consider relying on the protection of the authorities a good thing. But you condemn those same authorities for protecting you because ultimately authority must be willing to use violence in order to enforce order and justice. Protection requires to use of retaliatory force and you make all force evil with your views.
All those walking in and after the "flesh" consider the children of God as heretics.
Then there were no Christians throughout the whole of history. You have an explicitly Gnostic view of the body and the Gnostics died out a long time ago. You'd be better off as a Dhimmi in Spain though no Christian community there would accept you.
Not as different than you might think.
Well yes. There's a difference between living in Europe and the Middle East. Europe is the result of Christianity even if the latter's influence has declined. You are basically positing a world which looks like the Middle East, if our Christian forebears had done what you wanted and just run away and or surrendered. I quite like the Christianity of my forebears.
That didn't answer my question.
Was expulsion the policy of the Moors or of the allegedly Christians ?
Yes it was the policy of the Christian King and Queen of Castille and Aragon.
I see no Christian soldiers, anywhere.
Murder, is for murderers.
There have been plenty of Christian soldiers throughout history. It's because of then we are Christians because without their protection we could have ended up like the Copts in Egypt or died out completely.
They would be French...had they remained in France till now.
What I offer Muslims now is what I would have offered them a thousand years ago...freedom from the devil, "flesh", and condemnation by God.
You're still offering nothing. If the Christian action is to retreat, to be weak and never defend oneself then those with the will to dominate would have won a long time ago. I am grateful for Christians in the past being willing to resist their enemies. They were not pacifists or sadomasochists, they understood how society functions and acted accordingly.
 
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Hoping2

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No you have a physical body which Christ redeemed via his own incarnation and resurrection. You think, like the Gnostics did, that you are beyond this prude matter but you are not. You will always have a physical body, even after the resurrection.
By insinuating that we can't walk in the Spirit, you are in effect admitting to walking in the "flesh".
I pray you will repent of sin, and get your past sins washed away by the blood of Christ at your baptism into Christ, His death, and His resurrection.
Be raised as a new creature...with Christ !
Also circumcising the body of the sins of the "flesh", putting off the body. (Col 2:11)
Thereby also crucifying your "flesh" with the affections and lusts...so you can walk in the Spirit.
If every Christian had followed this advice then we would not be Christians today. Fighting was necessary to preserve Christianity.
That is not what Christ says.
Where did He authorize the ways of the wicked to preserve His kingdom ?
You do. You consider someone who kills a murderer. Therefore you are condemning them even if they kill for a just reason.
By letting liars know the punishment for lying, do you also opine that I condemn liars ?
They condemn themselves, as do those who kill in the name of Christ Jesus.
There is no justification for murder/killing.
I consider relying on the protection of the authorities a good thing. But you condemn those same authorities for protecting you because ultimately authority must be willing to use violence in order to enforce order and justice. Protection requires to use of retaliatory force and you make all force evil with your views.
Your reliance is on the "also-rans".
Turn to Christ for real protection.
Then there were no Christians throughout the whole of history. You have an explicitly Gnostic view of the body and the Gnostics died out a long time ago. You'd be better off as a Dhimmi in Spain though no Christian community there would accept you.
You seem to have forgotten who you are writing to.
I received the gospel from others who live the doctrine which is according to Godliness. (1 Tim 6:3)
We are not alone.
Well yes. There's a difference between living in Europe and the Middle East. Europe is the result of Christianity even if the latter's influence has declined. You are basically positing a world which looks like the Middle East, if our Christian forebears had done what you wanted and just run away and or surrendered. I quite like the Christianity of my forebears.
You are welcome to post your opinion, even if I see no wisdom in it.
Yes it was the policy of the Christian King and Queen of Castille and Aragon.
What makes you think they were Christians ?
There have been plenty of Christian soldiers throughout history. It's because of then we are Christians because without their protection we could have ended up like the Copts in Egypt or died out completely.
I disagree.
I will also add, that there have been plenty of men and women who have remained obedient to God and not killed anyone.
You're still offering nothing. If the Christian action is to retreat, to be weak and never defend oneself then those with the will to dominate would have won a long time ago. I am grateful for Christians in the past being willing to resist their enemies. They were not pacifists or sadomasochists, they understood how society functions and acted accordingly.
I would rather die for walking in and after the Spirit, than depend on the disobedience of others to save me from anything.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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By insinuating that we can't walk in the Spirit, you are in effect admitting to walking in the "flesh".
I pray you will repent of sin, and get your past sins washed away by the blood of Christ at your baptism into Christ, His death, and His resurrection.
Be raised as a new creature...with Christ !
Also circumcising the body of the sins of the "flesh", putting off the body. (Col 2:11)
Thereby also crucifying your "flesh" with the affections and lusts...so you can walk in the Spirit.

Except you are taking this to an extreme to pretend you don't rely on material matter. That you don't rely on others or things that exist in this world to sustain you.
That is not what Christ says.
Where did He authorize the ways of the wicked to preserve His kingdom ?

You are assuming that to defend one's home, one's city, one's nation is wicked instead of the basic duty expected of us.
By letting liars know the punishment for lying, do you also opine that I condemn liars ?
They condemn themselves, as do those who kill in the name of Christ Jesus.
There is no justification for murder/killing.
We've had this discussion before. You believe in the unlimited right of evildoers to do as they will. Killing is necessary if you want to live in society.
Your reliance is on the "also-rans".
Turn to Christ for real protection.
You're assuming that Christ does not use his own to protect others. That the Church is called to defend others from evil has been self evident to the faithful since the beggining.
You seem to have forgotten who you are writing to.
I received the gospel from others who live the doctrine which is according to Godliness. (1 Tim 6:3)
We are not alone.
Do you consider yourself part of a chain of Christians stretching back to the Apostles?

What makes you think they were Christians ?
Because they were. Can you demonstrate they were not? They weren't Gnostics though if that's what you're asking. So they didn't have your beliefs.
I disagree.
I will also add, that there have been plenty of men and women who have remained obedient to God and not killed anyone.
There have also been plenty of men and women who were obedient to God and did kill people.
I would rather die for walking in and after the Spirit, than depend on the disobedience of others to save me from anything.
And hence you'd prefer every Christian in the past end up dead or in slavery. You'd prefer Muslims have won and dominated us entirely.
 
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Hoping2

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Except you are taking this to an extreme to pretend you don't rely on material matter. That you don't rely on others or things that exist in this world to sustain you.
You are reading too much into this.
God supplies the things I "rely" on.
The air I breath and the food I eat.
You are assuming that to defend one's home, one's city, one's nation is wicked instead of the basic duty expected of us.
Only the wicked disobey God.
I quote Jesus...Love you neighbor as you love yourself" !
We've had this discussion before. You believe in the unlimited right of evildoers to do as they will. Killing is necessary if you want to live in society.
That doesn't sound like anything I have written before.
You seem to be misconcluding that obedience to God is necessary to live among society.
I cannot agree with that idea.
You're assuming that Christ does not use his own to protect others. That the Church is called to defend others from evil has been self evident to the faithful since the beggining.
Show me any evidence of the saints defending others in the name of Christ in the bible.
God does our protecting...not man.
Do you consider yourself part of a chain of Christians stretching back to the Apostles?
Yes, and our church is named in Eph 3:21.
Because they were. Can you demonstrate they were not? They weren't Gnostics though if that's what you're asking. So they didn't have your beliefs.
If they did not have my beliefs, they were not of God.
Their beliefs would have been world-flesh based.
There have also been plenty of men and women who were obedient to God and did kill people.
Not a chance.
And hence you'd prefer every Christian in the past end up dead or in slavery.
I could serve God, under anyone's dominion.
I am doing it now, in the USA !
Death casts no fear, on those already dead with Christ.
You'd prefer Muslims have won and dominated us entirely.
You seem totally oblivious of the power of God.
 
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