What is your opinion and experience with women with short hair?

stevevw said:

But there is also a ministerial priesthood or Overseer that leads the church. Christ installed this ministry through the apostles who then passed this on to other overseer/bishops.

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Temporarily. I don't think that Jesus meant this to be a life long or career-long relationship.

We only need to sow the seeds of Truth and the Holy Spirit to others. That's the extent of our authority over those who are new. It doesn't go beyond that because the Holy Spirit takes over in authority. That's no longer our job.

Are you familiar with this verse?

1 John 2:26-27
I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His TRUE and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

It's related to:

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

You can't ignore those verses unless you're not receiving any guidance from the Holy Spirit or too little to live entirely on it and you still need to be guided by other people in the Word your whole life.

You probably never heard these verses preached together in their proper context in church unless their pastor is crazy or don't care losing church attendance.

stevevw said:

But there is also a ministerial priesthood or Overseer that leads the church. Christ installed this ministry through the apostles who then passed this on to other overseer/bishops.

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But where in the bible are the pastors/overseers called priests? They are no more nor less priests than every believer.

Lost4words said:

Woof!

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Meow : )

timewerx said:

Temporarily. I don't think that Jesus meant this to be a life long or career-long relationship.

We only need to sow the seeds of Truth and the Holy Spirit to others. That's the extent of our authority over those who are new. It doesn't go beyond that because the Holy Spirit takes over in authority. That's no longer our job.

Are you familiar with this verse?

1 John 2:26-27
I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His TRUE and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

It's related to:

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

You can't ignore those verses unless you're not receiving any guidance from the Holy Spirit or too little to live entirely on it and you still need to be guided by other people in the Word your whole life.

You probably never heard these verses preached together in their proper context in church unless their pastor is crazy or don't care losing church attendance.

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If you read the previous section of John 2 it shows that John is speaking to the saved about how they know the truth of Christ by the Holy spirit. Thats why John says 'I don't need to tell you as they already can decern for themselves what is the truth of Christ.

But this would only make sense if there was a false teaching that John was warning about for the believers not to follow. So John is actually acting as an overseer and shepherd to the believers reminding them not to be fooled by lies and that they know the truth he has taught them is from Christ.

Verse 26 mentions this "I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray".

The disciples and the overseers passed the authority to be able to teach as John did which came from Jesus. The overseer is the shepherd that watches over the church. They warn, correct and reprove the believers to ensure they are following the teachings and Christ as there are many wolves that come into the church to decieve believers.

Here we are talking about the church, the gathering of believers in worship which is a vital part of being a Christian. Just like any large group coming together there needs to be order and an authority to overseer the ministry and church.

Christ appointed the apostles as the first ministers to spread the gospel and setup Christs physical church on earth which was to take over the Temple and Jewish synagogues in worship. This was another decernment in parting ways with Judaism.

Paul mentions the teachings and how the church was to be odered. Such as the qualifications for an overseer and the special laying of hands in giving them authority over the church ministry and to appoint others to take over and lead the church into the future.

David Lamb said:

But where in the bible are the pastors/overseers called priests? They are no more nor less priests than every believer.

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Sorry I should have qualified this as an overseer or elder. Though the priest has been associated with the overseer who were known as bishops. We see the Catholic form of worship beginning around maybe around 90AD. Ignatius mentions the 3 fold hierarchy of bishop, presbyter and deacon around 107AD.

But not like the old priests but rather as Paul mentions, a new kind of priest that is bringing the Gentiles as a pure sacrifice in Christ to the alter. God established the Aaronic priesthood by covenant with Moses and his family.

Christ eatablished the new covenant ministry when he appointed the disciples. This was the fullfillment of the old priesthood.

But this is the ministry part of overseeing the church like the old priesthood did. The practical and physical church that is ordered by the teachings and the special authority that was given by Christ to the apostles who then passed this on to overseers like Timothy, Titus, Bernabas, Silas, John Mark, Clement who was appointed by Peter and Ignatius by John. Paul appoited many overseers.

But there is also the Royal Priesthood who all believers are part of. This is the spiritual aspect that makes us all High Priests and able to recieve Christs justification to be worthy to enter the holy place and have communion with God.

But also to decern the truth and preach the gospel as a disciples which is a messenger of God. But not an apostle which is the 12 plus 70 dsiciples who ordained other men as overseers.

People sometimes confuse these or dismiss the ministerial aspect. But as a physical church there needs to be order and authority. Just as John and Paul and Peter were doing in leading, correcting others, reproving the teachings and even rebuking and putting out false teachers in the church.

Paul mentions this order when he talks about obeying elders and rulers and all the other stuff about qualifying overseers, prophesy, miniters in care, elders who teach are worth double honor, head coverings, how to deal with sin and false teachings in the church ect.

A lot of this has to do with the wolves who will come in to Christ church and fool even the elect. The overseer is the shepherd who protects the flock in the church.

But their authority is not theirs but what Christ has given and they represent Him and not themselves. They are actually servants like Christ who will lay their lives down for the church. Thats why the majority in the early church were executed for heading the church and representing a threat to the pagan Romans.

stevevw said:

The overseer is the shepherd that watches over the church. They warn, correct and reprove the believers to enough they are following the teachings and Christ as there are many wolves that come into the church to decieve believers.

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It doesn't make sense to keep teaching or guiding the same people after teaching them about "they don't need anyone to teach them" and after they received the Holy Spirit and is able to receive guidance from it.

Any leadership role is very temporary. When someone receives the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit takes over that role as the sole spiritual leader over their lives.

What's the point of serving as a spiritual authority/guide over another Christian who has the anointing of the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit alone is already more than sufficient (1 John 2:26-27, John 16:13)?

I think just being friends is more appropriate as in John 15:15.

These things really have to be taken into context. They're both right but only exists in their own time. Get people started. That's the only leadership role we can have over others. Beyond that, we can't usurp the role of the Holy Spirit.

timewerx said:

It doesn't make sense to keep teaching or guiding the same people after teaching them about "they don't need anyone to teach them" and after they received the Holy Spirit and is able to receive guidance from it.

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Its always the holy spirit. Whenever an overseer teaches or corrects someone its the holy spirit not the overseer. Whenever someone teaches a false teaching it is because they have rejected the truth which is Gods spirit.

When its mentioned that the church is to be unified in mind and spirit this is the holy spirit that unites in the teachings that all recognise the same truth. Its when this truth and spirit are challenged by false spirits that we need authority in the church to protect against this.

timewerx said:

Any leadership role is very temporary. When someone receives the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit takes over that role as the sole spiritual leader over their lives.

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Yes this is true, they can know Christs truth. But this doesn't mean everyone is living in that truth in the church. These are the wolves who look like sheep and promote false ideas and teachings that seem similar as they even fool the elect. If they can fool the elect then despite the holy spirit some reject Christs truth.

Or it can be just plain lack of knowledge and experience as a Christian. The bible mentions not causing those new to the faith to stumble. Maybe they have not fully read the bible. Paul mentions an overseer must not be a new Christian but knowledgable on the bible and be able to teach and correct others.

So some sort of order and authority within the church to have the ability to correct and reprove others who may either be less knowledgable on the scriptures, or are rejecting this and promoting a different doctrine.

The problem is not everyone will agree and then how do we tell who is teaching the truth. Look at all the different denominations who are teaching different things. Who holds the truth as they all claim they are standing on Gods spirit and Christs truth.

There has to be an authority above the lay who can sort this out. If we look at the bible we see many times the elders and the chief priests gathered to make important decisions about the teachings ie (circumcision). There would have been other times like when the church denounces heretics. This has been the case over history and still today as there are still heretics.

The problem is today there are many different claimed authorities in different denominations. It should be united. So even the church as a whole needs some sort of truth to tell which denominations are in Christs spirit and truth or not but are actually teaching a falsehood.

timewerx said:

What's the point of serving as a spiritual authority/guide over another Christian who has the anointing of the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit alone is already more than sufficient (1 John 2:26-27, John 16:13)?

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So what happens when two people both claiming the truth of the holy spirit disagree. How do you tell. Christ said He was the truth. Obviously this is determined by the scriptures and the fruits of the spirit. This is where the overseer comes in on behalf of the church.

I mean you can as a Christian spread the good news and no one would know if you have taught something wrong when outside the church. But inside the church when people are gathered the truth needs to be clearly decerned. The bible talks about decening the truth.

timewerx said:

I think just being friends is more appropriate as in John 15:15

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Yes all that has been said above is nothing without love, without being done in love for the other. But unfortunately people can deny the truth or even sin. If you notice Jesus says in verse 10 "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

So some can not keep the commands and therefore be blind to the truth. But those who do they don't need to be taught the truth. They will have a unified mind and spirit with the overseer or a friend. Otherwise as the bible says sometimes we need to reprove or even rebuke a friend out of love.

timewerx said:

These things really have to be taken into context. They're both right but only exists in their own time. Get people started. That's the only leadership role we can have over others. Beyond that, we can't usurp the role of the Holy Spirit.

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Unfortunately within a church with a large body of people not everyone is unified and people sin.

But you are right everything is guided by the holy spirit. When speaking about authority in the church this is not any humans authority. It is the holy spirit who is the authority and its a case of being aligned with the biblical truths or not that helps decern the truth as to whether the person is of the holy spirit or some other spirit posing as the holy spirit.

Not all Christians are mature enough to decern the difference. Especially in todays modern society where secular ideas can look very similar and appear good and right and yet be in contradiction to the bible. I think Paul even refers to these alternative doctrines, and myths so there are spirits who decieve. Its a spiritual battle that is not always obvious.

stevevw said:

Its always the holy spirit. Whenever an overseer teaches or corrects someone its the holy spirit not the overseer. Whenever someone teaches a false teaching it is because they have rejected the truth which is Gods spirit.

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The Bible is clear about the direct guidance or teaching of the Holy Spirit not through a person.

1 John 2:27
And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His TRUE and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

Anyone means anyone. Including people who may have the Holy Spirit.

"as you have been taught" - past tense.

All we need to do is remain in Him.

It's a problem with many churches (and probably the vast majority of it) are seemingly unaware of it or unable to grasp the reality of dealing with Christianity without the tangible stuff, like riding a bicycle without ever removing the training wheels. They needed to see something or touch or hear something to know that it's real.

So what happens when two people both claiming the truth of the holy spirit disagree.

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I often seek confirmation with another friend who has the same conviction as I do. We scrutinize what we hear to make sure it's the Holy Spirit. We debate but not for the purpose of winning but solely for scrutinizing, testing what we hear. It's all done out of love and uncovering the truth.

There's no matter of rank nor "who got there first" nor who's older nor younger.

Have you heard about "Power Difference" or "Cockpit Gradient" in aviation terminology? It's the gradient in hierarchy or authority between crew members in aircraft cockpit. Steep gradients have been directly attributed to many crashes. It's when a less senior and/or younger/less experienced crew hesitates to question the actions or state of mind of their superior(s) even if the crew dynamics is mostly positive or amiable. And since people makes mistakes, the mistake can be left undealt with and allowed to propagate and eventually cause harm.

It's not just a theory anymore when certain things lead to great harm. It applies to the dynamics of married couples as well. Many Christian couples already "co-lead" they're just afraid to admit it in the church because the idea is just ridiculous in the first place. Apostle Paul literally means what he said about authority, submitting, etc (as a soldier in submission to his senior officer). But many Christians regard authority in a relationship as something that you allow someone to do anything they want anyway. So why call it "authority" then? We're just twisting words and it won't do us any good. Face it for what it is and get done with it because the arrangement is only temporary. And speaking of temporary, hierarchy in married couples doesn't exist anymore due to vast differences in circumstances of women today vs women in Paul's time. They do need a hierarchy back then. Not anymore today.

It sure is good to have some order, structure, or even a hierarchy. What most Christians don't realize, these arrangements are only meant to be temporary. Despite our best intentions, it does not always lead to where the Lord wants us to be and even cause great harm.

John 15:15 isn't just between Jesus and ourselves. But Jesus is also setting an example on what we should do. A disciple is someone who studies and trains, eventually to become like Christ Himself and John 15:15 is something we should do to those under our care.

timewerx said:

The Bible is clear about the direct guidance or teaching of the Holy Spirit not through a person.

1 John 2:27
And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His TRUE and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

Anyone means anyone. Including people who may have the Holy Spirit.

"as you have been taught" - past tense.

All we need to do is remain in Him.

It's a problem with many churches (and probably the vast majority of it) are seemingly unaware of it or unable to grasp the reality of dealing with Christianity without the tangible stuff, like riding a bicycle without ever removing the training wheels. They needed to see something or touch or hear something to know that it's real.

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Yes everyone has this truth in them. But what happens when someone does not fully know the scriptures, the teachings. Here we are having a sort of disagree, though I don't think we are. But if there was a disagreement this shows that people disagree on what is the truth.

So I don't think we can say whenever someone claims to be speaking the truth in Gods spirit that its actually the truth. That is exactly what the wolves are that Christ warned the disciples about coming into the church and fooling even those already saved who are weaker or less knowledgable about the teachings.

In the early church as now there were those going around teaching false ideas like Gentiles still had to be circumcised to be saved. But others denying Christs trinity and other truths.

Acts 15:1-41
But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

Thats why Paul says

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 1:11
For which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

1 Thessalonians 4:8
Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

2 Timothy 2:2
And what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.

1 Timothy 4:6
If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

timewerx said:

I often seek confirmation with another friend who has the same conviction as I do. We scrutinize what we hear to make sure it's the Holy Spirit. We debate but not for the purpose of winning but solely for scrutinizing, testing what we hear. It's all done out of love and uncovering the truth.

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Yes and I think the bible says this, to check if something is supported by scripture. To even reprove or rebuke a brother who may have sinned. It seems to me though especially today we have all these different interpretations being claimed as Christs truth.

I think more than ever we have to be on our guarge about deceptions. Especially in an age where everything is seen as relative to the person and where we have even churches claim contradictory teachings.

timewerx said:

There's no matter of rank nor "who got there first" nor who's older nor younger.

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Surely theres a 'rank' in the sense of what is the truth or not. We can rank at least some false claims as unbiblical or contradicting Christs truth.

timewerx said:

Have you heard about "Power Difference" or "Cockpit Gradient" in aviation terminology? It's the gradient in hierarchy or authority between crew members in aircraft cockpit. Steep gradients have been directly attributed to many crashes. It's when a less senior and/or younger/less experienced crew hesitates to question the actions or state of mind of their superior(s) even if the crew dynamics is mostly positive or amiable. And since people makes mistakes, the mistake can be left undealt with and allowed to propagate and eventually cause harm.

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Of course the members must also be on the watch for false prophets and teachers. Paul mentions that the church members were his reference. They had already qualified Paul as the real thing. Though that doesn't mean that they make mistakes. But they should be minor as an overseer has to be above reproach and virtually an expert on the teachings. But the biggest qualification is that they see Christ in them.

If the crew is spotting something wrong then its out of the ordinary and really something the pilot should have spotted even before the crew. So its sort of a two way check and balance and when all are aligned with the truth no one has need to spot something wrong.

But this does not deminish that the pilot is the authority by matter of his credentials and being the captain in making important decisions when something does go wrong.

The crew and passengers don't suddently take control of the plane and polit and overthrow them. In fact in these situations the crew becomes the pilots allies in caring and supporting the passengers and they all work together within a unified plane or church.

timewerx said:

It's not just a theory anymore when certain things lead to great harm.

It sure is good to have some order, structure, or even a hierarchy. What most Christians don't realize, these arrangements are only meant to be temporary. Despite our best intentions, it does not always lead to where the Lord wants us to be and even cause great harm.

John 15:15 isn't just between Jesus and ourselves. But Jesus is also setting an example on what we should do. A disciple is someone who studies and trains, eventually to become like Christ Himself and John 15:15 is something we should do to those under our care.

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I think you hit the nail on the head when you said Christ is always the example. Ultimately He is the overseer and shepherd and example we all should be looking to.