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6,000 Years?

The Barbarian

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While the subject of archaeology is at hand, has anyone cared to notice how the historical accuracy of the bible is continually being supported and or proved by archaeological evidence proving the existence of people, places, and events recorded in holy scripture?
A lot of the Bible is history, and often pretty good history. One notable discrepancy is the supposed conquest of the city of Ai by Joshua. Ai had been destroyed over 1,000 years earlier, and was never rebuilt. At some point, the wrong city was identified, or some other issue. It's like the Bible saying that the sky is a dome with windows through which rain falls. People who focus on such things mistake the conventional ideas of the time, with God's message.
 
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Amo2

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A lot of the Bible is history, and often pretty good history. One notable discrepancy is the supposed conquest of the city of Ai by Joshua. Ai had been destroyed over 1,000 years earlier, and was never rebuilt. At some point, the wrong city was identified, or some other issue. It's like the Bible saying that the sky is a dome with windows through which rain falls. People who focus on such things mistake the conventional ideas of the time, with God's message.

Quoted article below from link above.

Biblical Sites: The Lost City of Ai…Found​

Joshua 7 and 8 recount the First and Second Battles of Ai. Et Tell has been accepted as the default site of Ai since W.F. Albright’s article on the subject in 1924. Et-Tell, however, fails to meet the biblical criteria for the city. Joseph Callaway, who excavated at et-Tell from 1964 –70 concluded: “Ai is simply an embarrassment to every view of the conquest that takes the biblical and archaeological evidence seriously.” But what if they were looking at the wrong site? What if et-Tell is not the city of Ai that Joshua and the Israelites conquered?

When Edwin Robinson explored the area in 1838, the local people pointed to a different site – Khirbet el-Maqatir – as Ai. Between 1995 and 2017 the Associates for Biblical Research (BibleArchaeology.org) excavated at Khirbet el-Maqatir and meticulously uncovered a fortified settlement from the time of Joshua that had been destroyed by fire. Archaeologist Gary Byers, who served as the administrative director of ABR’s excavations at Khirbet el-Maqatir says there are three ways we can know that this is the site of Joshua’s Ai: it has the right stuff in the right place at the right time.

Right Place

In order to identify the site of the ancient city of Ai from Joshua’s day a number of biblical criteria need to be met relating to geography and topography:

It must:

  1. Be adjacent to Beth Aven (Josh. 7:2)
  2. Be East of and near to Bethel (Josh. 7:2; 12:9)
  3. Have an ambush site between Bethel and Ai (Josh. 8:9, 12)
  4. Have a militarily significant hill north of Ai where the Israealite army camped (Josh. 8:11)
  5. Be close to a shallow valley north where Joshua and the decoy force could be seen by the king of Ai (Josh. 8:13–14);
The late Dr. David Livingston identified Bethel as modern el-Bireh. Building on his work, archaeologist Dr. Bryant Wood convincingly argued Bethel is indeed modern el-Bireh and Beth-Aven is modern Beitin and that only Khirbet el-Maqatir satisfies all of the above criteria. Geographically, it lies due east of Bethel/el-Bireh and only 1 mile southeast of Beth Aven/Beitin.

Today, one can see how the battle unfolded by looking at the topography around Khirbet el-Maqatir. North of the site is the highest hill in the region, called Jebel Abu Ammar, where Joshua’s main force encamped. Between it and Khirbet el-Maqatir is a shallow valley where the King of Ai could see the Israelite decoy force coming to battle. Immediately west of the site is the steep valley of the Wadi Sheban in which Joshua’s ambush force hid.

Right Stuff

In addition to being the in the right place, the site of Ai must also have the right stuff. Specifically, it must:

  1. Have fortification walls (it is called a “fortified place” in Josh. 8:1-2)
  2. Have a main gate facing north (implied in Josh 8:11)
  3. Be a relatively small site (Josh. 7:3; 10:2)
  4. Have evidence of the presence of women. (Josh. 8:25)
Excavations at Khirbet el-Maqatir have revealed a small border fortress dating to the Middle and Late Bronze Ages. Although only about 2.5 acres in size the foundation of the fortification walls on the north and west side were found to be 13 feet wide. On the north side of the fortress, a four-chambered gate was unearthed. Two of the gate’s socket stones were discovered in the gate passageway and others were found nearby.

The Bible describes the presence of women at Ai in Joshua 8:25, which would initially seem a strange thing at a border military fortress. However, archaeological evidence of this came in 2009 when an infant burial jar was discovered at Khirbet el-Maqatir with the child’s remains scattered around the jar. The typology of the offering vessels and the burial jar itself suggest that the infant was buried sometime around 1500 B.C.

Interestingly, there are the remains of a Byzantine monastery at Khirbet el-Maqatir. The Byzantines often built their churches upon biblical sites and may have built the one here to commemorate the Israelite victory over Ai.

Right Time

The biblical date for the conquest and the Battles of Ai would be 1406 B.C. (near the end of the Late Bronze Age I period). This is deduced from a straightforward reading of a number of passages dating the Exodus to 1446 B.C.: 1 Kings 6:1, Judges 11:26-27, Acts 13:19-20 and the number of generations listed 1 Chron. 6:33-38. Therefore, any candidate site for the biblical city of Ai that Joshua’s army defeated must meet the following criteria:

  1. Evidence of occupation during the 15th century B.C.
  2. Evidence of destruction by fire in the 15th century B.C. (Josh. 8:19; 8:28)
Excavations at Khirbet el-Maqatir revealed ample pottery dating to the Late Bronze Age I, much of which had been refired in a site-wide conflagration. This is consistent with a site that had been destroyed by fire as described in Joshua 8:28: “So Joshua burned Ai and made it forever a heap of ruins, as it is to this day.”

Three Egyptian scarabs were found at the site, including two from the period of the fortress: one dating to the the Middle Bronze III period (ca. 1650–1485 B.C.) and another rarer scarab dating to the 18thDynasty, likely in the reign of Amenhotep II (ca. 1455-1418 B.C.). This second scarab was discovered in situ in a sealed locus, providing a terminal date for the fortress toward the end of the 15th century B.C. Archaeologist, Dr. Scott Stripling concludes: “The two scarabs synchronize with the ceramic analysis and provide firm dates for the operation of the fortress. It now seems clear that the small fortress, likely the Ai of Joshua 7-8, was constructed during the MB III boom and was violently destroyed near the end of LB I.”

SUMMARY:

In the absence of any ancient inscription identifying a site, scholars are left to match the archaeological remains with what is known about a place from history. In the case of Ai, the only ancient text with information about the site is the Bible and Khirbet el-Maqatir is the only site that meets all of the biblical criteria. It has the right stuff in the right place at the right time. Rather than being an “embarrassment,” correctly identifying Khirbet el-Maqatir as the site of the city of Ai that Joshua defeated demonstrates the historical reliability of the biblical account of the conquest in the 15thcentury B.C.
 
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Amo2

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As you admit, the Bible doesn't say that. Six thousand years is a personal interpretation of what it actually does say.

Yea, I'm not overly concerned with exactness concerning the unobservable past.
It merely says nothing about it. You might as well criticize the Bible for saying nothing about protons. But 6,000 years is an interpretation of scripture, not God's actual word. And since the evidence shows both an ancient Earth and protons there's no reason to deny them.

WRONG! It simply and repeatedly states complete contradictions to deep time evolutionary conjectures. Some straight from the mouth of God, as recorded in the giving of the fourth commandment by God to Israel, verbally from the mount. Then written with His own finger in stone twice for Israel as well.

Get 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.....................

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.............

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.........................

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so..................

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so................

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Psa 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.




This only superficially describes YECs. He's not speaking of them in this passage. Fact is, He doesn't care if you like the way He did creation. That's not how you'll be judged.

The fact is that holy scripture and the fourth commandment teach one thing about our origins, and you teach something completely different. Making the commandment of God, of none effect.
I'd be open to your evidence that if scripture later refers to a figurative verse, that converts it to a literal account. What do you have?

Again, this only superficially describes YECs. Few of them actually make an idol of YE beliefs. Again, this is not speaking of YECs exclusively, certainly not most of them. Most YECs are no less Christian than the rest of us, even if they are wrong about what God says in Genesis.


Again that's too harsh on YECs. The "deep time theory of evolution" is just a misconception some of them teach, without any idea of what the theory actually says. Nothing about deep time. That discovery came much later, by geologists and astronomers.

"People are usually down on things they aren't up on."
Everette Dirkson
No sense in responding to the above gobbledygook.
 
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FaithT

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A lot of the Bible is history, and often pretty good history. One notable discrepancy is the supposed conquest of the city of Ai by Joshua. Ai had been destroyed over 1,000 years earlier, and was never rebuilt. At some point, the wrong city was identified, or some other issue. It's like the Bible saying that the sky is a dome with windows through which rain falls. People who focus on such things mistake the conventional ideas of the time, with God's message.
You’re saying there’s an error in the Bible?
 
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Platte

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It's like the Bible saying that the sky is a dome with windows through which rain falls. People who focus on such things mistake the conventional ideas of the time, with God's message.
…and people of our high intellect refer to the sunsetting and rising. And the always silly: the tide rising. Neither of which is reality
 
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FaithT

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You agree the incomplete genealogies show creation occurring ~6000 years ago?
I agree that the incomplete genealogies could add up to 6000 years, maybe, I’m not good at math, but this is all according to the calculations of James Ussher. He also determined the day of creation as being October 23, 4004 BC. It sounds pretty wacky to me.
 
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The Barbarian

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and people of our high intellect refer to the sunsetting and rising. And the always silly: the tide rising. Neither of which is reality
Yes, but YECs often take such language as literally true.
 
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The Barbarian

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You’re saying there’s an error in the Bible?
In the time of Joshual, Ai was a crumbled ruin. There are certainly ways to interpret that in other ways, just as the sky is not literally a dome with gates in it.
 
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The Barbarian

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It merely says nothing about it. You might as well criticize the Bible for saying nothing about protons. But 6,000 years is an interpretation of scripture, not God's actual word. And since the evidence shows both an ancient Earth and protons there's no reason to deny them.

No, that's correct. You are free to interpret the Bible as saying 6,000 years, but it doesn't say that. That is man's interpretation.

It simply and repeatedly states complete contradictions to deep time evolutionary conjectures.
As noted earlier, you've just assumed a weird misunderstanding of what evolutionary theory says. It's not about the age of the Earth.

This only superficially describes YECs. He's not speaking of them in this passage. Fact is, He doesn't care if you like the way He did creation. That's not how you'll be judged.

The fact is that holy scripture and the fourth commandment teach one thing about our origins, and you teach something completely different.
No, you've just assumed that you are authorized to interpret scripture for God. Your interpretation is not God's word. I'd be open to your evidence that if scripture later refers to a figurative verse, that converts it to a literal account. What do you have?

Again, this only superficially describes YECs. Few of them actually make an idol of YE beliefs. Again, this is not speaking of YECs exclusively, certainly not most of them. Most YECs are no less Christian than the rest of us, even if they are wrong about what God says in Genesis.


Again that's too harsh on YECs. The "deep time theory of evolution" is just a misconception some of them teach, without any idea of what the theory actually says. Nothing about deep time. That discovery came much later, by geologists and astronomers.


"People are usually down on things they aren't up on."
Everette Dirkson

No sense in responding to the above gobbledygook.
Most YECs bail at that point. But you should ask yourself why your beliefs depend on having an odd misunderstanding of evolutionary theory.
 
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FaithT

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In the time of Joshual, Ai was a crumbled ruin. There are certainly ways to interpret that in other ways, just as the sky is not literally a dome with gates in it.
    • <<<<<<<Archaeological Significance:
      Archaeological excavations at et-Tell, near Beitin, have uncovered evidence of a large city from the Early Bronze Age that was destroyed around 2500 BCE.While some debate the exact identification of Ai, this site aligns with the biblical descriptions and is considered a strong candidate. >>>>>>>>

      So there may not be an error in the Bible? The clip ^above is from AI Overview
 
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Job 33:6

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The deep time theory of evolution is nothing more than a modern form intellectual idolatry. Transforming the glory of God's creation in six days as He Himself has declared, into a deep time slowly evolving and ever changing existence built upon countless mutations, miseries, deaths, extinctions, and survival of a "fittest".

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,...............................
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
I made a pizza in 6 hours. But what does that have to do with material origins? The pizza sat in the freezer, formless and empty for a month beforehand.
 
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The Barbarian

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    • <<<<<<<Archaeological Significance:
      Archaeological excavations at et-Tell, near Beitin, have uncovered evidence of a large city from the Early Bronze Age that was destroyed around 2500 BCE.While some debate the exact identification of Ai, this site aligns with the biblical descriptions and is considered a strong candidate. >>>>>>>>

      So there may not be an error in the Bible? The clip ^above is from AI Overview
In other words, ancient Ai has yet to be found. However, all geographical indications in the Biblical text point to the area of Khirbet et-Tell as the location of Ai. From various Biblical references, we know that Ai must be located east of and adjacent to Bethel ( Joshua 7:2 , 8:9 , 12 ; Genesis 12:8 ).


Close apparently counts in horseshoes and Biblical inerrancy.
 
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The Barbarian

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I don't know of YECs that talk of Sky domes.
I've challenged them to tell me whether or not they consider those verses true or not. They either evade the question or affirm that they are literally true. So the question is, "Are you YEC, and do you consider the Flood story to be literally true in all respects?"

I realize not all YECs think that Genesis is always literally true. But so far, I haven't conversed with one who does not. Are you the first?
 
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