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My brother I agree with your statement but it does not respond to my post. I’ll give you a hint: apostolic succession according to the RCC.
John 6:44
Yes God draws them, He does not handcuff, hoodwink, or kidnap them
You need to give me time. So as not to miscommunicate, can you tell me your point in quoting that portion of the Catechism?
Because it adds works for salvation. 1129 adds sacraments as a requirement for salvation which is not biblical. 2010 states that we can gather merits by ourselves during sanctification for the attainment of salvation. Meaning that we work for salvation not from salvation. 2027 is similar to 2010 but only states that we can gather merits for our own salvation which takes salvation to a merit salvation. 2068 related to the canons of Trent which requires baptism and the Ten Commandments in order to attain salvation. This is faith plus works salvation.
I can show you the scriptures, but the sacraments were commanded by Jesus, so to deny them would be to rebel against Jesus commands
You have great theological drama in your responses. I don’t see John 3:16 adding anything to salvation beyond faith so anything else is done FROM salvation. See no drama. No one is rebelling.
More drama. No one is rebelling against the Ten Commandments because again we keep them FROM salvation. We keep them because of our love of Jesus and this love can only come from justification and regeneration. We cannot love Jesus in our fallen state.
Because the catechism asserts that you need to do the above TO attain salvation. Once again we have the Lord’s supper and baptize new believers FROM salvation. In fact, we only baptize those that have professed their faith in Jesus Christ as it shows in scripture.
And that’s what happens when you use verses out of context.
Again, how can one claim to love Jesus and not desire to keep His commandments? The Ten Commandments are Old Covenant. Jesus expanded on the Ten Commandments in Matthew 5-7, and He gave additional commandments which are demonstrated in the sacraments.
Again, that is not what anyone here is claiming. The difference is than your church teaches that a person needs to keep the commandments FOR salvation while we keep the commandments FROM salvation as the Holt Scriptures teach. Your church teaches a faith plus works salvation.
"Transubstantiation" is a word for what Jesus tells us in John. When Jews doubted that they were to eat His true flesh, Jesus became more emphatic. The Greek changes to a word meaning to "masticate," to actually chew, physical eating. It was such a "hard saying" for the disciples of Jesus that many actually walked away. Jesus did not call them back and say "Wait, I was only speaking symbolically." Jesus linked this new sacrament to the Passover. In order to complete the Passover meal the Jews had to physically eat the lamb. Had they disobeyed God's orders to eat the lamb at the Passover they would not have been saved.And that’s what happens when you use verses out of context.
Audience: Jews
Reason for passage: comparing the manna that the descendants of the Jews ate in the desert to Jesus deity. Jesus begins his discourse announcing that He is the bread of life. Right before the verse that you cited Jesus states:
“So then the Jews were complaining about Him because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” And they were saying, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop complaining among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.”
John 6:41-47 NASB2020
Here He states what is actually needed for salvation.John 6:41-47 So then the Jews were complaining about Him because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” And they were saying, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know | New American Standard Bible - NASB
So then the Jews were complaining about Him because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” And they were saying, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we knowbible.com
“I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down out of heaven, so that anyone may eat from it and not die. I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I will give for the life of the world also is My flesh.” Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, the one who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. This is the bread that came down out of heaven, not as the fathers ate and died; the one who eats this bread will live forever.””
John 6:48-58 NASB2020
John 6:51-58 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I will give for the life of the world also is My flesh.” Then the Jews beg | New American Standard Bible - NASB
I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I will give for the life of the world also is My flesh.” Then the Jews begbible.com
Here Jesus is telling the unbelieving Jews that they must believe in Him to have salvation. The Christians were accused of performing cannibalistic rituals because if Jesus words and many of His audience did not believe His words.
But whether you read the passage right or not the fact still remains that I continue to state that we do the Lords Supper FROM salvation for FOR salvation as verse 47 do eloquently proclaims.
BTW, transubstantiation is an invention of the council of Trent. The elements do not turn into the flesh and blood of Christ.
Jesus breathed on the Apostles and gave them the power to forgive sin, so there is confession or Penance. He validated marriage as binding, so there is matrimony. He said John baptized with water, but He would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire, so there is baptism in rhe Holy Spirit which is confirmation.
The Greek Orthodox also believe the literal words of Jesus. The three leaders of the reformation all came up with their own different ideas on the Eucharist and I don't know how may are ideas out there today. This was not new, first with the disciples described in John, who had been with Jesus up until that point. It was also so decades later:
Ignatius is not pitching transubstantiation. Start with Thomas Aquinas but Trent finalized it. As a counterreformation council that only applied to the RCC the impetus was to separate the RCC from everyone else. Mistakes were made.
No you are misconstruing Church doctrine.
And yet I posted the evidence from the CCC that you still have not addressed.
Then you work FOR salvation not FROM salvation. No one here is saying that the believers with saving faith refuse to do works or keep the Ten Commandments.
Again, you are starting with the wrong premise. This is more theological drama. All Christians, including you, still sin otherwise no one would ever need to repent. Second, all Christians with saving faith pray and deny themselves. All Christians who have saving faith will do works but not for salvation but from salvation. We do the works that God prepared in advance for us to do because we are made a workmanship for Christ (Eph. 2). No one is made a workmanship for Christ unless they have been born again and justified. We will join the marriage supper of the Lamb.
