By the Law Is the Knowledge of Sin

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

When I look in my heart, I see Jesus living in there (Ro 8:9-10; 2 Cor 13:5). That's how I know I have His eternal life (1 Jn 5:11-12).

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And as long as that experience is supported by evidence of good fruit in your life then you have good reason for confidence. Without that, we should question whether we're even His.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

No, my theology says it is true righteousness and holiness due to our union with Christ. Yes, it is internal, but it shines out to the world when we walk in lock step with Him.

This is close to what I believe, but I see it as complete victory in the inner man over sin's power because we are one with Christ. In terms of the flesh, I don't see it as reformable. But I do see us as forgiven.

Again, this is close to what I believe, but I see the change of nature as a permanent separation from sin to God, not as something that is earned over time.

I thought you were saying you understood that getting a new heart in which righteousness dwells was something that really happens to a person. But now you are saying it is no different than the life you got from Adam.

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Yes, that's something that must happen. I've also maintained that a person can walk back away from God, can reject the gifts he's been given and return to the flesh and to injustice. If that were to happen he'd have to have a complete change of heart all over again, metanoia, repentance with a true desire for God. It's important to have that understanding and make that distinction rather than presuming upon salvation independent of what we do and how we live our lives, as long as we...believe.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

Well, it is true that the fruit of the Spirit are evident. And seeing the good fruit is an aid to help young children in the faith learn that the steps they are taking as they learn to walk in the Spirit are the right steps. But after decades of practice, a person develops an intimate personal relationship with the Lord. His presence, His glory, His holiness, and His will (among other things) are directly discernable and the fruit is no longer necessary as a teaching aid. If, after decades of intimacy with the Lord, His presence were to become undiscernable, I don't see how a few fruits would help that person's despair.

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IDK. The nearer one is to God the more we love. And love, simply, produces good fruit.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Ro 3:19–20)
These two sentences are pretty easy to understand. The first sentence says that the law shuts every person's mouth and causes them to understand they are guilty of sin before God. For these reasons, the second sentence says that God will not declare anyone righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law, and everyone understands this because the law teaches people they are sinners.

Do these verses speak the truth? Does everyone who sees/hears/knows the law understand they are sinners and that God will not declare them righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law? Yes. It is not phyiscally possible for a person to gaze into the law and go away deceived into thinking he is right with God because of his obedience to the law.

Why then, do we see so many people speaking the opposite? The most obvious plausible answer is that they know it but are supressing the truth. There may be other answers, but I can't think of any.

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Yes, Romans 3:19–20 speaks truth. Eternal truth.

The Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, makes it abundantly clear that the law was never given as a ladder to climb our way to heaven. It was given as a mirror not to cleanse us, but to show us how dirty we are. That’s why Paul writes:

“…so that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”
(Romans 3:19)

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In other words, the law silences every excuse. It exposes the universal condition of mankind guilty. It leaves no room for self-justification. And as you rightly said, verse 20 confirms the outcome:

“…by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight…”

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So Why Do People Keep Preaching Law-Based Righteousness?​

This is the heart of your question and it's a critical one for the modern Church.

You said something vital: “They know it but are suppressing the truth.”
Yes! That’s exactly what Romans 1:18 also tells us:

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness…”

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Many people even religious ones have a form of godliness (2 Tim. 3:5) but deny its power by returning to the law for righteousness, instead of Christ. Why?

Because the law appeals to human pride.

• The flesh craves control. Law-based living gives a false sense of control "I did this, I earned that."
• Self-righteousness is addictive. It’s easier for the natural man to count good deeds than to surrender and say, “I am hopeless without Christ.”
• Satan loves legalism. Because it masquerades as holiness but leaves people in bondage (Gal. 5:1–4).

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But the Truth Remains Unshaken: The Law Cannot Save​

James says, “Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” (James 2:10)

So if even one sin condemns a person, who then can be saved by the law? None!

That’s why Paul exclaims in Romans 7:24:

“O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?”

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And then, the Gospel shout of grace:

“Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Rom. 7:25)

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The Law Leads Us to Christ​

Galatians 3:24 puts it beautifully:

“Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”

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The law shows us we are bankrupt so we’ll run to the cross for mercy.

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So What Must the Church Do?​

• Preach the law rightly — to convict, not to save.
• Preach grace boldly — that salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9).
• Confront legalism — as Paul did in Galatia.
• Disciple believers to walk in the Spirit, not the flesh. (Gal. 5:16)

Dear Brother:​

You are absolutely correct: When people deny what the law reveals, it’s not because the law failed it’s because they are either deceived or suppressing the truth. And as pastors, teachers, and brothers in Christ, we must be bold to declare both the purpose of the law and the power of the Gospel.

Let’s never forget Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes (Rom. 10:4). And in Him alone, we are justified.

Stay rooted in the Word and led by the Spirit, brother. You are speaking truth in a time of much confusion.

Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus,
Pastor Waris

pastorwaris said:

Yes, Romans 3:19–20 speaks truth. Eternal truth.

The Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, makes it abundantly clear that the law was never given as a ladder to climb our way to heaven. It was given as a mirror not to cleanse us, but to show us how dirty we are. That’s why Paul writes:



In other words, the law silences every excuse. It exposes the universal condition of mankind guilty. It leaves no room for self-justification. And as you rightly said, verse 20 confirms the outcome:

So Why Do People Keep Preaching Law-Based Righteousness?​

This is the heart of your question and it's a critical one for the modern Church.

You said something vital: “They know it but are suppressing the truth.”
Yes! That’s exactly what Romans 1:18 also tells us:



Many people even religious ones have a form of godliness (2 Tim. 3:5) but deny its power by returning to the law for righteousness, instead of Christ. Why?

Because the law appeals to human pride.

• The flesh craves control. Law-based living gives a false sense of control "I did this, I earned that."
• Self-righteousness is addictive. It’s easier for the natural man to count good deeds than to surrender and say, “I am hopeless without Christ.”
• Satan loves legalism. Because it masquerades as holiness but leaves people in bondage (Gal. 5:1–4).

---

But the Truth Remains Unshaken: The Law Cannot Save​

James says, “Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” (James 2:10)

So if even one sin condemns a person, who then can be saved by the law? None!

That’s why Paul exclaims in Romans 7:24:


And then, the Gospel shout of grace:

---

The Law Leads Us to Christ​

Galatians 3:24 puts it beautifully:


The law shows us we are bankrupt so we’ll run to the cross for mercy.

---

So What Must the Church Do?​

• Preach the law rightly — to convict, not to save.
• Preach grace boldly — that salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9).
• Confront legalism — as Paul did in Galatia.
• Disciple believers to walk in the Spirit, not the flesh. (Gal. 5:16)

Dear Brother:​

You are absolutely correct: When people deny what the law reveals, it’s not because the law failed it’s because they are either deceived or suppressing the truth. And as pastors, teachers, and brothers in Christ, we must be bold to declare both the purpose of the law and the power of the Gospel.

Let’s never forget Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes (Rom. 10:4). And in Him alone, we are justified.

Stay rooted in the Word and led by the Spirit, brother. You are speaking truth in a time of much confusion.

Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus,
Pastor Waris

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Yes, the law cannot justify, and the law's purpose was to teach us of our abject failure at being righteous, at being who we were created to be. to convict us of sin, IOW. And yet, anyone who believes that the new covenant has something to do with making it ok to be unrighteous, making it ok to remain in our sins, has very little understanding of the gospel-and what it means to be under the law vs under grace.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

This is close to what I believe, but I see it as complete victory in the inner man over sin's power because we are one with Christ. In terms of the flesh, I don't see it as reformable. But I do see us as forgiven.

Click to expand...

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

Again, this is close to what I believe, but I see the change of nature as a permanent separation from sin to God, not as something that is earned over time.

Click to expand...

Ok, this is where youre losing me I guess. We either sin or we don't; we can't blame some alter-ego, pointing to him and saying "He did it while I did not, or something to that effect. We both agree that righteousness is freely given in some manner, but also that we continue to sin. In Catholic theology that righteousness is a part of our justification, God justifying the ungodly: by making us right. And now we're responsible for our part of the "deal", for how we "invest" the grace, the righteousness, the light given us, for how we cooperate with God's work in us, a cooperation which is attested to in how we live our lives. So Paul warns us in Rom 6:21 that sin leads to death while affirming in 6:22 that holiness leads to eternal life. And this instruction continues in chap 8:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14