Parallels and divergences, Calvin, Luther, and Saint Augustine

fhansen · Jul 17, 2025

Clare73 said:
To be reckoned/counted as righteous, the righteousness of Christ is imputed/reckoned (Ro 5:18-19, 1:7, 3:21, 4:5, Php 3:9) to the now sinless believer.

Doesn't sound like too much of a difference really. Either way, as asked, is this imputation/reckoning of righteousness real personal righteousness that’s actually given to us, so that we might now become more just and live more justly than before, or simply a change in status before the eyes of God?

Clare73 · Jul 18, 2025

fhansen said:
Doesn't sound like too much of a difference really. Either way, as asked, is this imputation/reckoning of righteousness real personal righteousness that’s actually given to us, so that we might now become more just and live more justly than before, or simply a change in status before the eyes of God?

It is not an inherent rigtheousness, that comes through sanctification; i.e. obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16 19).
It is an imputed righteousness (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, Php 3:9) through faith which admits to the kingdom of God and saves from condemnation at the Judgment.

Clare73 · Jul 18, 2025

fhansen said:
Nope, not what it says. Either way, yes, the righteousness of Christ is a gift, but of real righteousness:
"not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9
Because:
"...now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

Why?:
"...in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:4

How does is this requirement met? How does this work? By the Spirit Christ gives us, as just stated in 8:4 above:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

There is imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, Php 3:9) as a result of faith/salvation/justification (declaration of remission of sin), and
there is inherent righteousness (holiness) as a result of obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19).

Clare73 · Jul 18, 2025

fhansen said:
Doesn't sound like too much of a difference really. Either way, as asked, is this imputation/reckoning of righteousness real personal righteousness that’s actually given to us, so that we might now become more just and live more justly than before, or simply a change in status before the eyes of God?

It is not inherent righteousness, which is the result of obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19).

It is righteousness credited (imputed) to your account in God's justice system (through faith) so that you are no longer a debtor of sin subject to justice for non-payment.

Sin is not only inherent unrighteousness, but also creates a debt to God's justice which must be paid, hence the cross,
while the imputed righteousness of Christ stands in the stead of our still inherent unrighteousness and we are counted as righteous by God.

fhansen · Jul 19, 2025

Clare73 said:
There is imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, Php 3:9) as a result of faith/salvation/justification (declaration of remission of sin), and
there is inherent righteousness (holiness) as a result of obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19).

So, how does man receive this holines and obedience? Is it not the result of being justifed?

Clare73 · Jul 19, 2025

fhansen said:
So, how does man receive this holines and obedience? Is it not the result of being justifed?

Justification (dikaiosis) means: declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of sins' remission; i.e., sinlessness, as a result of salvation (remission of sin) through faith.

We don't "receive" holiness and obedience. Holiness is the result of obedience in the Christian life (Ro 6:16, 19).
We receive a reckoned/accounted/credited (not inherent) righteosness as the result of justification. . .which is the result of salvation (remission of sin) which is the result of faith.

Faith --> salvation (remission of sin) --> justification (declaration of sin's remission) --> imputed righteousness of Christ (not an inherent righteousnes/holiness, which is by obedience in the Holy Spirit, Ro 6:16, 19).

fhansen · Jul 19, 2025

Clare73 said:
We don't "receive" holiness and obedience. Holiness is the result of obedience in the Christian life (Ro 6:16, 19).

So, we become holy by our own obedience-even if we're still the same old person only declared or reckoned to be holy?

Clare73 · Jul 19, 2025

fhansen said:
So, we become holy by our own obedience-even if we're still the same old person only declared or reckoned to be holy?

Do you understand regeneration; i.e., the new birth from eternal death into eternal life (Jn 3:3-5), by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) choice of the Holy Spirit?

Nothing acceptable to God takes place apart from the rebirth by the Holy Spirit.

fhansen · Jul 19, 2025

Clare73 said:
Do you understand regeneration; i.e., the new birth from eternal death into eternal life (Jn 3:3-5), by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) choice of the Holy Spirit?

I'm not sure; do you understand it? Regeneration comes as a result of being justifed. And that consists of forgiveness of sin and being given a new heart and spirit, of being changed, for the better, now able to serve God and live as He desires, to "sin no more", not merely declared to be righteous/sinless IOW, but made righteous, finally, the right way, His way, by virtue of our turning to Him, the Creator, instead of to oursleves, the creature, as Adam did.

Clare73 · Jul 19, 2025

fhansen said:
I'm not sure; do you understand it? Regeneration comes as a result of being justifed.

Contraire. . .

Regeneration is from eternal death into eternal life. There is no faith, salvation, justification, imputed righteojsness to the eternally dead.
They must first be born again to even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3-5), much less believe in it to salvation.

fhansen · Jul 19, 2025

Clare73 said:
Contraire. . .

Regeneration is from eternal death into eternal life. There is no faith, salvation, justification, imputed righteojsness to the eternally dead.
They must first be born again to even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3-5), much less believe in it to salvation.

Nope, it begins with grace, followed by faith which is the acceptance of God as our God-and that union, itself, is the essence of the new birth, the rebirth.

Clare73 · Jul 19, 2025

fhansen said:
Nope, it begins with grace, followed by faith which is the acceptance of God as our God-and that union, itself, is the essence of the new birth, the rebirth.

Yes, it begins with the grace of the new birth.

No one can even see the kingdom of God (which grace and faith are able to do) before one is born again (Jn 3:3-5). . ergo, there is no grace and faith before the grace and faith of the new birth. . .and that grace solely by the sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

fhansen · Jul 19, 2025

Clare73 said:
Yes, it begins with the grace of the new birth.

No one can even see the kingdom of God (which grace and faith are able to do) before one is born again (Jn 3:3-5). . ergo, there is no grace and faith before the grace and faith of the new birth. . .and that grace solely by the sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

We don't actually see the kingdom very clearly even now, in this life. Either way, being born again is the result of faith responding to grace, it doesn't come first.

Clare73 · Jul 19, 2025

fhansen said:
We don't actually see the kingdom very clearly even now, in this life. Either way, being born again is the result of faith responding to grace, it doesn't come first.

The kingdom of God is the rule of God, both a present reality and a future hope.

fhansen · Jul 19, 2025

Clare73 said:
The kingdom of God is the rule of God, both a present reality and a future hope.

Well, I'll agree with that. Either way, to see God, and his kingdom, is something that will be much clearer, perfectly clear, in the next life

FutureAndAHope · Wednesday at 7:29 AM

Kathleen30 said:
Xeno why didn’t the Catholic Church continue to lay the foundation of St Augustine’s theology. It’s seems to have retreated in the archives of the ages for nearly a millennia. Until the Reformation

The fact is that for the 400 years before Augustine all the Church Fathers spoke of man's responsibility in salvation, that man is free.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202], Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37 The Way and Free Will)

Why would the church accept Augustine's doctrine?

Parallels and divergences, Calvin, Luther, and Saint Augustine

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