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A couple questions about the Septuagint

chunkofcoal

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I've been reading the Septuagint and have a couple questions. :)
Is the Brenton's Septuagint a good translation or is there a better one?
Are there commentaries based on the Septuagint? Most of the commentaries I've come across are based on the Masoretic, but I've noticed there are some differences in the texts.
I've noticed a couple verses in Brenton's Septuagint that are not in my KJV - is there a reference available as to where, what texts, the additional verses originated?
Any help would be appreciated! Thank you!
 

gzt

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The first thing I'll note is that while we have a preference for the LXX as a liturgical text, the Masoretic, as well as the Vulgate and other traditional texts, are also just fine by us. It's just that we operated in Greek, mostly, historically, and that was the Greek text.

Some people like NETS for what it is. The Orthodox Study Bible has a revision of the NKJV text to align more with LXX readings.

Good commentaries on the MT will note significant variations in the LXX text. There aren't many books dealing directly with the LXX specifically except as a critical, philological or historical exercise. Generally people actually interested in it aren't in as much need of a translation because they're going to be specialists who read Greek. But, good news, that means the origins of textual variants, which you're apparently interested in, are the sort of thing that gets discussed. The Oxford Handbook of the Septuagint has more information on the textual history and transmission of the LXX than anybody could ever want to know, but it's not a devotional book or commentary.
 
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chunkofcoal

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The first thing I'll note is that while we have a preference for the LXX as a liturgical text, the Masoretic, as well as the Vulgate and other traditional texts, are also just fine by us. It's just that we operated in Greek, mostly, historically, and that was the Greek text.

Some people like NETS for what it is. The Orthodox Study Bible has a revision of the NKJV text to align more with LXX readings.

Good commentaries on the MT will note significant variations in the LXX text. There aren't many books dealing directly with the LXX specifically except as a critical, philological or historical exercise. Generally people actually interested in it aren't in as much need of a translation because they're going to be specialists who read Greek. But, good news, that means the origins of textual variants, which you're apparently interested in, are the sort of thing that gets discussed. The Oxford Handbook of the Septuagint has more information on the textual history and transmission of the LXX than anybody could ever want to know, but it's not a devotional book or commentary.
Thank you very much!
 
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The Liturgist

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The Orthodox Study Bible has a revision of the NKJV text to align more with LXX readings.

Are you sure about that? I seem to recall reading that the New Testament is the NKJV whereas the OF was an original translation of the LXX.

By the way, for one wanting the LXX in traditional language, the translation by Lancelot Brenton is quite nice.

Regarding the Septuagint Psalter, we do have a KJV-corrected and Coverdale-corrected version among a plethora of other options, for instance, the Psalter from the Challoner Douai Rheims is a second-order translation of a translation of the Septuagint Psalter (so technically a translation of a translation of a translation, but while one would think that would cause problems, it aligns very closely with the Septuagint reading) although we of course already have at least two very good Psalters in English, one based on the KJV which is freely available, and the Jordanville Psalter (best obtained via A Psalter for Prayer which also has other nice things like the Orthodox original version of Quincunque Vult (also known as the Athanasian Creed), commonly found in Russian psalters apparently, and also in Greek copies of the horologion).

There is also the Boston Psalter by Holy Transfiguration Monastery, which is an original translation, but I haven’t used it … I like their Pentecostarion however.*


*I’m on the fence about which Pentecostarion I like more, the HTM edition, the Isaac E. Lambertsen translation published by St. John of Kronstadt Press, or the St. Sergius edition. I have a print copy of the Lambertsen Pentecostarion which I purchased at the same time as my print copy of the Festal Menaion and the Triodion (and the supplement to it) by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and Mother Mary, may their memory be eternal, and it is a beautiful book, but I’ve seen the HTM Pentecostarion and it is also a beautiful book.
 
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The Liturgist

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Is the Brenton's Septuagint a good translation

Its elegant and is the oldest - I like it. If in doubt, one can always cross check against other translations or the original Greek.
 
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The Liturgist

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I know St John Chrysostom comments on the Maccabean martyrs

Indeed. Also the Orthodox lectionary makes use of books in the Septuagint which aren’t in the Masoretic text (such as Wisdom and Baruch), and relies on the Septuagint version of Daniel. The Western Rite Orthodox lectionary probably uses the “Honor a physician” pericope from Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) on the Feast of St. Luke.
 
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gzt

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Are you sure about that? I seem to recall reading that the New Testament is the NKJV whereas the OF was an original translation of the LXX.
Well, I don't have a copy, but they discuss their method in the introduction, if you have it handy. At one point they thought they would do an original translation, but ultimately did not.
 
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ArmyMatt

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The Western Rite Orthodox lectionary probably uses the “Honor a physician” pericope from Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) on the Feast of St. Luke.
never heard that, but that’s pretty cool
 
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rusmeister

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My $64 dollar question is about the Masoretic texts. They were retranslated by Judaic Jews in the 8th and 9th century AD if memory serves. One of the goals, as I remember hearing, was to shift translation away from interpretations that Christ fulfilled ancient prophecies, changing in places “virgin” to “young woman” where the vowel markers permitted. Have any issues ever been raised over the canonicity from the Orthodox perspective of the Masoretic texts, translated by people who denied our Faith?
 
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gzt

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Indeed. Also the Orthodox lectionary makes use of books in the Septuagint which aren’t in the Masoretic text (such as Wisdom and Baruch), and relies on the Septuagint version of Daniel. The Western Rite Orthodox lectionary probably uses the “Honor a physician” pericope from Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) on the Feast of St. Luke.
Probably? It's a question of fact, we can look it up! According to the only WR information I have, these are the readings they assign for that day:

1V: Ecclus. 28:1-14; Acts 15:36-16:15
M: Ezek. 1:1-14; Luke 1:1-4
2V: Ezek. 47:1-12; Col. 4:2-end

I believe that must be a typo, since it's chapter 38 that would make sense here. Anyway.

Also we explicitly do not use the common "Septuagint" version of Daniel, we use a different Greek translation! This is a common mistake. We use Theodotion's version, which is actually closer to the MT in the chapters common to all three.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Have any issues ever been raised over the canonicity from the Orthodox perspective of the Masoretic texts, translated by people who denied our Faith?
no, because we can, and historically have, interpreted it properly. the entire 5th Ecumenical Council took terms from non-Chalcedonians, that initially were intended to refute us, and interpreted them to show how they actually can defend our position correctly.

Orthodoxy has no issue taking things intended to deny our faith, and correcting then grafting them into the articulation of the faith.
 
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The Liturgist

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t's a question of fact, we can look it up!

Unfortunately I don’t have any of the revised liturgical materials being used by the ROCOR WRV, which has sought to revert the Western Rite to how it was before 1054, but I do have two service books used in different regions by the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate, St. Andrew’s Prayer Book and St. Colgan’s Prayer Book. However, last night I was not feeling well enough to track them down.

There’s an Antiochian WRV church not terribly far from where I live that I hope to visit, since i share the positive view of St. John Maximovitch towards the Western Rite, although I prefer the Byzantine Rite.
 
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JSRG

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My $64 dollar question is about the Masoretic texts. They were retranslated by Judaic Jews in the 8th and 9th century AD if memory serves.

They were already in Hebrew, so there were inherently no retranslations.

What the Masoretes did, as far as I understand, was two things:
1) Make an effort to better standardize the text
2) Add vowel pointers

I should explain the issue of vowel pointers. Originally, Hebrew wasn't written with vowels, just consonants. You just knew the pronunciations based on oral communication and context. Thus, nothing in the Bible ever had vowel pointers when it was written. Later on--in the second half of the first millennium AD--a system of vowel pointers was created, which were little symbols you would put around the letters to show what the vowel pronunciations were supposed to be. The Masoretic Text includes those, and they became a feature of the Hebrew language going forward, though a lot of time they're left off in Modern Hebrew.

The vowel pointers, beyond being a pronunciation aid, can also differentiate words. Much like the word "wound" in English, which has two separate pronunciations with very different meanings (compare "I have a wound from my injury" to "the clock is wound up", where the word has a different meaning and pronunciation in each sentence), you can have words with the same letters, but different vowels, giving you different words.

One of the goals, as I remember hearing, was to shift translation away from interpretations that Christ fulfilled ancient prophecies, changing in places “virgin” to “young woman” where the vowel markers permitted.

I assume you are referring to Isaiah 7:14. The question of whether it should be translated as "young woman" or "virgin" is a debated point, but the question has nothing to do with the vowel pointers nor even the letters themselves. While some words change meaning if they have different vowel pointers, as noted above, this does not seem to be one of them. So while there are some cases where someone could try to argue they made an error with the vowels and they should have put in different vowels to give the word a different meaning, this isn't one of them.

It is also not a case of them changing the word itself in the creation of the Masoretic Text, because the Dead Sea Scrolls, done prior to Christianity, have the same Hebrew word in Isaiah 7:14. (I confirmed this with the useful book "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible", which gives a translation of the text of the Bible as can be reassembled from the Dead Sea Scrolls, including notes of differences with the Masoretic Text, and there is no mention of this word being different).

So there really isn't any controversy over what the original Hebrew word was. The controversy is over the appropriate translation of it. But that doesn't have anything to do with any change in the text itself.

Have any issues ever been raised over the canonicity from the Orthodox perspective of the Masoretic texts, translated by people who denied our Faith?
Well, as noted, they weren't translated, as they were already in Hebrew. Well, as noted, they didn't translate anything. The works were already in Hebrew. The question is whether the readings they kept were the accurate ones.

Can't really comment on the Orthodox perspective, but I know I have seen some Christians express dubiousness over the Masoretic Text for this reason, namely it being maintained by people who rejected Christianity. The Dead Sea Scrolls do predate Christianity (and thus any rejection), but due to the fragmentary nature of the DSS, there's a whole lot of verses in the Old Testament that aren't available in them to check.
 
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gzt

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Can't really comment on the Orthodox perspective, but I know I have seen some Christians express dubiousness over the Masoretic Text for this reason, namely it being maintained by people who rejected Christianity. The Dead Sea Scrolls do predate Christianity (and thus any rejection), but due to the fragmentary nature of the DSS, there's a whole lot of verses in the Old Testament that aren't available in them to check.
The Orthodox don't object to the Masoretic Text.
 
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The Liturgist

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The Orthodox don't object to the Masoretic Text.

This is true. Indeed if I recall a major Russian language Bible from the 19th century was translated from the Masoretic. We also have a noted Masoretic scholar whose blog used to be on the Ancient Faith website, Dr. Eric Jobe.

That said, the Masoretic text lacks certain books that are important to us, like Wisdom, and also has a Psalter incorrectly configured for our worship, and the Masoretic versions of Esther and Daniel are lacking content we regard as important (even if the MT version of Daniel is closer to that which we use as you have said; I would be interested to see if you could confirm whether or not the Orthodox Study Bible is using Theodotion’s translation of Daniel or if they translated it from the Septuagint; I could post the verses in question).

That said I would argue we should regard the Peshitta and the Vulgate as more important than the Masoretic text, for they were both translated after the foundation of the Church and were used by the Orthodox Church before the Roman church became heterodox and before the West Syriac Rite fell out of use in the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch in the 1200s due to declining Aramaic speaking populations, although there is one Aramaic speaking village left, Maaloula, in Syria, whose residents are mostly Antiochian Orthodox and which features a convent whose nuns were held captive by Al Nusra, which desecrated the church in 2016.

By the way what jurisdiction are you with?
 
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gzt

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Mostly OCA, I've been GOARCH and spent a bit of time of the Antiochians.

As mentioned, I don't own an Orthodox Study Bible, but, sure, you could post the verses. The introduction might say what exactly they did, I think they generally work off of Rahlf's, which I don't have, but I seem to recall that it contains both versions of Daniel maybe?, so I'd be surprised if they didn't use Theodotion's. NETS includes both and makes it easy to compare: https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/40-daniel-nets.pdf
 
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