Substitutionary Atonement

Jonaitis · 2025-07-18T15:18:49-0500

Substitutionary atonement is the biblical teaching that Jesus Christ died in the place of sinners, taking on Himself the punishment we deserved, so that we could be forgiven and reconciled to God through faith.

In other words:

1. We broke God’s law.

2. We deserve judgment (Romans 6:23).

3. Jesus stepped in as our substitute, taking the penalty in our place.

4. Because of His sacrifice, God’s justice is satisfied, and His mercy is freely given to us through faith.

So the cross is both justice and love meeting together. Let us not forget this beautiful gospel message.

d taylor · 2025-07-18T15:55:15-0500

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But if the cross does not point people to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life. A person is still sperated from God, because the cross in and of itself, has no power to give people God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Yarddog · 2025-07-18T16:27:02-0500

d taylor said:
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But if the cross does not point people to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life. A person is still sperated from God, because the cross in and of itself, has no power to give people God's free gift of Eternal Life.

The cross is the key which opens the gate into heaven.

Jonaitis · 2025-07-18T16:36:50-0500

d taylor said:
But if the cross does not point people to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life. A person is still sperated from God, because the cross in and of itself, has no power to give people God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Do you believe the suffering of Jesus on the cross is the reason of God pardoning sinners? Or are you saying the suffering on the cross was merely a pointer?

Fervent · 2025-07-18T16:42:12-0500

The issue with Penal Substititution is it flattens atonement to a legal fiction, and presents God as a volcano God demanding a human sacrifice to placate His anger.

The Bible certainly uses a legal motif, but it is in a context where the law was treated in a less abstract manner.

d taylor · 2025-07-18T17:00:50-0500

Jonaitis said:
Do you believe the suffering of Jesus on the cross is the reason of God pardoning sinners? Or are you saying the suffering on the cross was merely a pointer?

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What Jesus did was a whole package. Just suffering did no good if Jesus stayed in the grave.

God originally stated that for Adams sin that brought sin into the world and eventually to all humanity. God demanded a payment for sin, God choose blood. So Jesus death paid the price God originally stated that needed to be paid for sin. So Jesus death took away the sin of the world, because Jesus not only died, but rose from death a living person.

All sin has been forgiven for believers and unbelievers, but still if a person wants to spend eternity with God. The only way to do this is to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life (The Life of God), because having the Life of God. Is the only way to spend eternity with God who is Eternal Life.

God gave a very specific object for a person to believe in, it is the narrow way Which is the person Jesus and not miracles Jesus did. These miracles/signs should point a person to Jesus to believe in.

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

d taylor · 2025-07-18T17:04:46-0500

Yarddog said:
The cross is the key which opens the gate into heaven.

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Belief in Jesus is the way to enter through the door. I do not believe The Bible or Jesus states anything about the cross being a key to heaven.

timothyu · 2025-07-18T17:05:46-0500

Jesus was the only human worthy of resurrection at the time as He had followed God's will to the letter. That opened the door. God's Kingdom will come and we have to show we are worthy of it now by aligning ourselves with it as we repent (reject the world we have made in our own image) and show by our actions we are indeed willing to follow His will and not our own. For Jesus who would have eventually have died being human, it meant early death at the hands of the religion He was at odds with, rather than fleeing across the Jordan. God showed through Jesus that the Father's will would be done, regardless of rebellious man or elohim. He would overcome the death we had brought upon ourselves and could find no way out of.

Yarddog · 2025-07-18T17:25:44-0500

d taylor said:
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Belief in Jesus is the way to enter through the door. I do not believe The Bible or Jesus states anything about the cross being a key to heaven.

God told me that about 15 years ago. I believe him.

d taylor · 2025-07-18T18:08:56-0500

Yarddog said:
God told me that about 15 years ago. I believe him.

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Why would God tell someone something that is not supported by The Bible.

Yarddog · 2025-07-18T18:21:48-0500

d taylor said:
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Why would God tell someone something that is not supported by The Bible.

Just because you say that it's not supported doesn't mean that it's not.

I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 16 : 19

d taylor · 2025-07-18T20:24:34-0500

Yarddog said:
Just because you say that it's not supported doesn't mean that it's not.

I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 16 : 19

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August 16, 2022 by Bob Wilkin in Blog - binding and loosing, Matthew 16:16-19, Matthew 18:18

“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” (Matt 16:18-19).

Normally I do not do much preparation for answering questions on podcasts. By not preparing in advance, the answers sound very spontaneous. Well, they are.
But when David Renfro and I were answering a question the other day about Matt 16:18-19, we decided we needed to stop and do a bit of preparation.
I found some great quotes from two commentators that we shared on the podcast.
R. T. France wrote that,

The metaphor of “tying up” and “untying” speaks also of administrative authority. The terms are used in rabbinic literature for declaring what is and is not permitted. When the same commission is given to the whole disciple group in 18:18 it will be specifically in the context of dealing with sin within their community (see comments there). Such authority to declare what is and is not permissible will of course have personal consequences for the person judged to have sinned, but it is the prior judgment in principle which is the focus of the “tying” metaphor, and there, as here, the objects of both verbs will be expressed in the neuter, not the masculine; it is things, issues, which are being tied or untied, not people as such… (Matthew, p. 626).

Leon Morris agrees:

The metaphor of binding and loosing was used by the rabbis for declaring forbidden or permitted. There is a strong opinion that the Christians thought rather of excluding from and admitting to the Christian community. This may be correct, though we should bear in mind that [the word] whatever is neuter both times and that this fits better with things than with people. If we take this seriously, the saying means that the Spirit-inspired church will be able to declare authoritatively what things are forbidden and what things are permitted (Matthew, p. 426).

Many have suggested, as Morris mentions, that Jesus was saying that Peter and the other apostles (compare Matt 18:18) had the authority to determine who would and who would not be in the kingdom (based on who believed in Jesus and who did not). But that was not the issue here. Instead, the Lord was talking about what practices will be permitted and what practices will be forbidden in the local church.
In a sense, the apostles are still doing this today. Their writings (including their reports of the Lord Jesus’ teachings) tell us what believers should and should not do.
Paul said in Eph 2:20 that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (with Christ as the cornerstone). The apostles were not only part of the first generation of Christians, but they were also leading members of the foundation of the church. They were used by the Lord to give us the instructions we need to please God.

Reluctant Theologian · 2025-07-18T20:57:15-0500

Jonaitis said:
Substitutionary atonement is the biblical teaching that Jesus Christ died in the place of sinners, taking on Himself the punishment we deserved, so that we could be forgiven and reconciled to God through faith.

In other words:

1. We broke God’s law.

2. We deserve judgment (Romans 6:23).

3. Jesus stepped in as our substitute, taking the penalty in our place.

4. Because of His sacrifice, God’s justice is satisfied, and His mercy is freely given to us through faith.

So the cross is both justice and love meeting together. Let us not forget this beautiful gospel message.

The big problem with penal substitution is that it doesn't make any sense from a logical and moral point of view. Substitution for compensation makes sense, but not substitution for punishment. If one child behaves badly, how could I possibly be satisfied in my righteousness by punishing another child for that? Another child can offer to clean-up the mess (that is the compensation bit), but the punishment of someone else does not solve anything at all - it doesn't restore a relationship and does not clean up the mess.

Neither does the legal payment argument make sense: God would be paying the price Himself (as he is sacrificing His own Son). Paying yourself is a zero-sum game.

Real forgiveness does not require any repayment or retaliation at all - at least that is the core message of Yeshua. We are called to forgive 7 times 70 times without any blood or repayment involved. Penal substitution theory is basically saying God cannot do that Himself: He is so righteous that any offense/sin MUST be punished always so someone else guilt-less and blameless MUST die - the logic of that is lost to me.

I do see the logic of us dying with Yeshua so that with Him our sin and shame and death ends up on the cross so also with Him we rise and live a new life in Him. He literally takes us with Him in His death so all our bad stuff also vanishes at the cross. The wages of sin is death - so because of our sin death is inevitable, but we can go through Yeshua's death in Him and so with Him also receive new life.

That logic I get and is beautiful.

Real forgiveness is about restoring a spoiled relationship as if nothing has happened - not about someone else paying for a broken window.

Fervent · 2025-07-18T21:13:40-0500

Reluctant Theologian said:
The big problem with penal substitution is that it doesn't make any sense from a logical and moral point of view. Substitution for compensation makes sense, but not substitution for punishment. If one child behaves badly, how could I possibly be satisfied in my righteousness by punishing another child for that? Another child can offer to clean-up the mess (that is the compensation bit), but the punishment of someone else does not solve anything at all - it doesn't restore a relationship and does not clean up the mess.

The forensic motif isn't about punishment, though many misunderstand this and even contradict it in common parlance. While it is retributive, the retribution is not simply punitive but removing an obstacle.

Reluctant Theologian said:
Neither does the legal payment argument make sense: God would be paying the price Himself (as he is sacrificing His own Son). Paying yourself is a zero-sum game.

The payment, insofar as that motif can be employed, was for the integrity of the law itself. It's not a payment from God to anyone, neither Himself nor the devil. Specifying a recipient takes the motif too far.

Reluctant Theologian said:
Real forgiveness does not require any repayment or retaliation at all - at least that is the core message of Yeshua. We are called to forgive 7 times 70 times without any blood or repayment involved. Penal substitution theory is basically saying God cannot do that Himself: He is so righteous that any offense/sin MUST be punished always so someone else guilt-less and blameless MUST die - the logic of that is lost to me.

That seems like an uncharitable characterization. It is because God forgives us that He offered Himself up in order to satisfy the laws rightful claim of death on us. Not a means of acquiring that forgiveness.

Reluctant Theologian said:
I do see the logic of us dying with Yeshua so that with Him our sin and shame and death ends up on the cross so also with Him we rise and live a new life in Him. He literally takes us with Him in His death so all our bad stuff also vanishes at the cross. The wages of sin is death - so because of our sin death is inevitable, but we can go through Yeshua's death in Him and so with Him also receive new life.

Yes, there must be a medical and expiatory aspect as well as propitiatory. But He accomplished all that and more.

Reluctant Theologian said:
That logic I get and is beautiful.

It is, but it's incomplete.

Reluctant Theologian said:
Real forgiveness is about restoring a spoiled relationship as if nothing has happened - not about someone else paying for a broken window.

Amen

BobRyan · 2025-07-18T21:24:52-0500

Jonaitis said:
Substitutionary atonement is the biblical teaching that Jesus Christ died in the place of sinners, taking on Himself the punishment we deserved, so that we could be forgiven and reconciled to God through faith.

In other words:

1. We broke God’s law.

2. We deserve judgment (Romans 6:23).

3. Jesus stepped in as our substitute, taking the penalty in our place.

4. Because of His sacrifice, God’s justice is satisfied, and His mercy is freely given to us through faith.

So the cross is both justice and love meeting together. Let us not forget this beautiful gospel message.

True - Justice and mercy have kissed each other - Ps 85:10

BobRyan · 2025-07-18T21:29:06-0500

d taylor said:
-But if the cross does not point people to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life. A person is still sperated from God, because the cross in and of itself, has no power to give people God's free gift of Eternal Life.

God is the one that chooses the system "whosoever will may come"
God chose the model "choose you this day whom you will serve"

God is the one that says in Matt 23:

Jesus Laments over Jerusalem

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

2 Peter 3 - "God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

Yet it is the "Few" of Matt 7 that will enter eternal life - not the many

BobRyan · 2025-07-18T21:38:48-0500

d taylor said:
-Belief in Jesus is the way to enter through the door. I do not believe The Bible or Jesus states anything about the cross being a key to heaven.

2 Cor 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Rom 6:
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Gal 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Substitutionary Atonement

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