No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Brightfame52 said:

False, that's the beginning of salvation on earth, being drawn to Christ, the work has begun in the person Phil 1:6

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

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Thanks for skipping everything I posted and posting a verse taken completely out of context to support your theory.

David Lamb said:

Yet Jesus said:

““No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Joh 6:44 NKJV)

So how can God give everybody the chance to be saved if, as you agree, He does not draw everyone in a saving sense?

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Not every person born will make it to heaven. Only those who as the old song goes, "Trust and obey".

Judas asked the question about "who receives manifestation", or the "choosing" of God. This is what was said:


There is a specific order in the passage: 1) God gives His word (both commands, and saving grace) 2) man either receives (obeys) or rejects it (disobeys), 3) if a person receives it, they then receive the Father's love; if they reject it, they remain separate from God.

There are two ways a person reacts to God's word:


But God gives the manifestation of His truth to all:



God is always opening ears, giving instruction. Because He desires the Salvation of those He created.

Brightfame52 said:

@ThatDumbChicken



False, that's the beginning of salvation on earth, being drawn to Christ, the work has begun in the person Phil 1:6

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

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I quote from my free online resource on Free Will The Way and Free Will:

Now let’s move to the issue of preservation of salvation. The acronym OSAS stands for Once Saved Always Saved. It is the logical conclusion of accepting Predestination. If God fixes destinies, if I am saved now, then I will always remain saved. The thinking that I will be saved no matter what can lead to (although not always) the thought that it does not matter if I sin, which in turn can lead to lawlessness, even a falling away from Christ.

To counter the thought of OSAS we will show from scripture that people can lose their salvation after receiving it.


The first passage shows us clearly, that people who were “once enlightened” - given sight by God, “have tasted the heavenly gift” and have even “become partakers of the Holy Spirit”, can fall away from God, and if they die in sin, will be crucifying Christ again.


Peter also shows this same fact, that people who have escaped the pollution of the world can again be entangled in them and lost.


Hebrews states that there is a worse punishment for those who fell away knowing Christ.

Even Jesus Himself spoke of casting away people who draw away from Him.



Lampstands in scripture refer to the Holy Spirit; so Revelation 2:5 is a very severe warning, if as a Christian we go back to sin, and don't repent, God will remove the Spirit from us.

So from the scriptures, we can see that OSAS is not logical.

Brightfame52 said:

No Im not addressing 2 Pet 2:1 Im fine with you believing a lie that Christs redeeming death can be so in effective. My point is no person can believe in or come to Christ by their own freewill.

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You won't address 2 Peter 2:1 because you know you can't reconcile it with your false doctrine. You don't base your doctrine on all scripture, you base it on your cherry picked scriptures that you take out of context.

Brightfame52 said:

Hearing the word spiritually is the product of the New Birth,like Jesus says Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Hearing spiritual things requires spiritual life. Just like hearing natural things requires natural life.

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That is a different context from the passage I quoted. You must not have read the passage from Romans 10 very carefully. Read it again.

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

You are trying to say that someone can only hear the word of God if they have experienced the new birth, but Paul asks even regarding those who didn't believe: "Have they not heard?" and then he proceeds to show that they did hear because the word of God "went into all the earth". So, this passage says that unbelievers have heard the word of God, but they reject it. Don't confuse the simple gospel message (the milk) with the deeper things of God that the natural man can't understand (1 Cor 2:9-16), which Paul called "the meat" or "the solid food" of God's word (1 Corinthians 3:1-3).

Tell me, why does God condemn people for not believing in Jesus if they are not even able to do so? Does God condemn and punish people for no reason?

Tell me, why do you think that people have no excuse to not glorify God as God and be thankful to Him (Romans 1:18-21), but somehow many of those same people who are expected to glorify God and be thankful to Him can't acknowledge that they are sinners and believe in Christ? Why do you give them an excuse for not repenting and believing (because they can't due to supposedly being totally depraved), while they do not have any excuse for glorifying God and being thankful to Him instead of suppressing the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18-21)?

Why do you believe that all people are capable of choosing whether or not to suppress the truth and whether or not to glorify God and be thankful to Him, but you think the choice of repenting and believing or not is entirely up to God? How can someone choose to glorify God and be thankful to Him without confessing their sins to Him? No one who refuses to turn away from their sins would ever glorify God and be thankful to Him. So, there is no excuse for anyone to not repent of their sins. Yet, you give them an excuse because you say no one can repent unless God gives them repentance. Which means you say that some cannot repent no matter what they do unless God gives them repentance. So, if God doesn't give them repentance when that's supposedly the only way someone can repent, wouldn't that be a legitimate excuse for someone to not repent? They can just say that they couldn't because God didn't give them repentance. That would be a valid excuse if that's how repentance worked. But, they have no excuse, so that's not how repentance works.

Brightfame52 said:

@ThatDumbChicken



False, that's the beginning of salvation on earth, being drawn to Christ, the work has begun in the person Phil 1:6

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

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The good work He begins in us occurs after we become saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

As this passage makes clear, the good works God prepares for us begin to be done after we become saved by grace through faith. So, it's after we become saved that He begins a good work in us.

Post #423 shows Calvinist believe in a false work based eternal life salvation. As they place themselves at a judgment to see if they are really an elect.

Brightfame52 said:

@ThatDumbChicken



False, that's the beginning of salvation on earth, being drawn to Christ, the work has begun in the person Phil 1:6

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

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An d that. means OSAS. . Period. !!

Phil 1:5 says ,For your fellowship into the Gospel , from the first. DAY until the Present !!

dan p

God is responsible for a person being able to be able to come back into God's family. God sent Jesus (The Son) who took away the sin of the world. So every person who believes in Jesus. receives at the very moment of belief in Jesus God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Man could not take away sin, which separated man from God, only God could. So only God is responsible for man being able receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. The only condition God states to receive the free gift, is to believe God's promise. That if you believe in Jesus, Eternal Life is yours forever.

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The false theology that Calvinism teaches and believes. Is that faith or belief is a special gift God only gives to the elect so they can believe.

But in reality faith and the ability to believe, is something every person is born with. Which is the ability to exercise faith or belief in something and only in that sense is faith a gift, but it is a gift God gives every person when they are born into the world.

Revelation 22:17
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

There it is, free will in the Bible. Whosoever will can take that water of life.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

Revelation 22:17
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

There it is, free will in the Bible. Whosoever will can take that water of life.

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It is important to look at context. To whom do the Spirit and the bride say, "Come?"

“16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” (Re 22:16-17 NKJV)

So the context is that the Spirit and the bride (Christ's church) are saying, "Come" to Christ. As John Gill wrote in his commentary: "Hearing Christ say that he should come quickly, Re 22:7,12 the Spirit and the bride express an earnest wish, and a most affectionate desire after his coming: by "the Spirit" may be meant the Spirit of God in the hearts of his people, who not only convinces them of, and acquaints with the coming of Christ to judgment, and gives them reason to expect it, but fills their souls with the love of his appearance, so that they look and long for it, and hasten in the breathings of their souls after it."

This view is confirmed later in the chapter:

“He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!” (Re 22:20 NKJV)

Brightfame52 said:

One is saved when the drawing begins

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Doesn't that mean one is saved without faith?

David Lamb said:

It is important to look at context. To whom do the Spirit and the bride say, "Come?"

“16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” (Re 22:16-17 NKJV)

So the context is that the Spirit and the bride (Christ's church) are saying, "Come" to Christ. As John Gill wrote in his commentary: "Hearing Christ say that he should come quickly, Re 22:7,12 the Spirit and the bride express an earnest wish, and a most affectionate desire after his coming: by "the Spirit" may be meant the Spirit of God in the hearts of his people, who not only convinces them of, and acquaints with the coming of Christ to judgment, and gives them reason to expect it, but fills their souls with the love of his appearance, so that they look and long for it, and hasten in the breathings of their souls after it."

This view is confirmed later in the chapter:

“He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!” (Re 22:20 NKJV)

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It says "whosoever will" meaning that it's up to people's will.

Brightfame52 said:

Yeah, faith comes with the drawing, when Salvation begins

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The Bible says though one is saved through faith, not before faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
— Ephesians 2:8