Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

Studyman said:

I am not making it about any Covenant. Bob is, you seem to be, but not me.

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Yes I am. The covenant made with Israel at Sinai. Not the covenant of circumcision made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Studyman said:

It's about what is actually written in Scriptures.

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Covenants are scripture

Studyman said:

In the religious system of this world God placed you and I in, "who come in Christ's Name", it is taught that God's commandments and Ordinances relegated Faithful Gentiles as without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But Paul isn't saying that at all and as you can SEE, God's Commandments teach no such thing.

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This is what I want to address, as it is the issue that we see scripture speaking differently. this is what I meant by one step at a time. It does no good to either of us, to discuss ideas that are based upon a faulty understanding or the result of a faulty understanding. We are of the mind that "the other" has a faulty understanding. Therefore meaning no disrespect I would like to take these issues one at a time.

ralliann said:

Yes I am. The covenant made with Israel at Sinai. Not the covenant of circumcision made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Covenants are scripture

This is what I want to address, as it is the issue that we see scripture speaking differently. this is what I meant by one step at a time. It does no good to either of us, to discuss ideas that are based upon a faulty understanding or the result of a faulty understanding. We are of the mind that "the other" has a faulty understanding. Therefore meaning no disrespect I would like to take these issues one at a time.

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Israelites strangers to the priesthood and holy house itself, (holy place, holy of holies)

Nu 3:10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest’s office: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 3:38 But those that encamp before the tabernacle toward the east, even before the tabernacle of the congregation eastward, shall be Moses, and Aaron and his sons, keeping the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel; and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 16:40 To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger <02114>, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers <3581> from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers <3581> and foreigners <paroikoi>, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Le 25:23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers Gr 4339) and sojourners Gr (paroikoi) with me. {for ever: or, to be quite cut off: Heb. for cutting off }

1Ch 29:15 For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as were all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is none abiding.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

The Greek words (526) here for (Gr 526) ( Heb 02114) can be found in verse 69:8

Ps 69:8 I am become a stranger (526) unto my brethren, and an alien (3581 zenos) unto my mother’s children.
Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged Gr (526) from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. {as soon … : Heb. from the belly }

The same Greek word is used also below. But there is no Hebrew term...
Ho 9:10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

All I am saying is these designations are often spoken of concerning JEW's in various ways. But mostly their relation to the house of God in relation to the priesthood.
After all Ephesians is a greek text. Thes same words imo should also be found in Greek text of the old testament...

There is, what appears to me, an anachronism in the thread title that is central to the debate. That is that when Jesus said "the law and the prophets" He was not speaking of the legal codes but the Scriptures themselves. The law is shorthand for the 5 books of Moses, the prophets are a bundle of other OT books. So when Jesus said He came to "fulfill" the law and the prophets what He was declaring is that they were given to speak of Him and His mission.

The terms 'fulfill' and 'abolish' are technical terms still used in orthodox Jewish communities/schools to this day. They simple mean to interpret correctly (fufill) or interpret incorrectly (abolish). Jesus teachings were largely targeted at the interpretaion of the Law of Moses. It wasn't about 'fulfilling' it to do away with it, it was about understanding and interpreting it correctly as God intended whether Jew or Gentile.

ralliann said:

Yes I am. The covenant made with Israel at Sinai. Not the covenant of circumcision made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

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Gen. 17: 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Ex. 12: 43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: 44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. 46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. 47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. 48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49 "One law" shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

These are the exact same Covenant. And it doesn't create a Wall of Separation based on DNA, like you and Bob and "many" who come in Christ's Name try to convince others Paul is teaching in Eph. 2. Some, who profess to know God, try and convince me Abraham didn't know about the Christ being the Lamb of God.

What you have not been taught, is the Truth about the "ADDED" Law after the children of Israel broke the covenant on Mt. Sinai. You can read it for yourself if you like. God was going to wipe Israel out and make a great nation out of Moses. But Moses offered himself to God, and pleaded with Him to have mercy. So God allowed Moses to go up a second time, And God gave him the same Laws, only this time God "ADDED" to the temporary Priesthood Covenant with Levi, sacrificial "works of the Law" that required an individual to bring an animal to a Levite Priest, and KILL IT, a Law that Abraham was not under, that were to be in place "Till the SEED, the Lamb of God, should Come". This is the Law Paul speaks to in Gal. 3 that was ADDED 430 years after Abraham.

21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.

22 For I spake not unto your fathers, "nor commanded them" in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, "concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:"

23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Is this not the exact same thing God Commanded Abraham?

Gen. 17: 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

But what did they do? Did they "Do the Works of their Father Abraham"? Caleb did, Joshua did. "In Fact, EVERY Example of Faith did even at the risk of their own lives. But the rest didn't, as it is written.

24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

Paul promoted God's definition of "Circumcision", while the rebellious "children of the devil" who ruled in the Temple in the City of David, created their own commandments concerning circumcision. Commandments that relegated Non-Jews as being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:.

These are the Commandments of men Jesus exposed and destroyed, that created a Wall between Faithful strangers and home born.

I know this world's religious sects and businesses, the "MANY" who "come in Christ's Name", have not taught us these things, just as Jesus, Paul and the Prophets Prophesied they wouldn't. But if you read what is actually written, and "Believe it", you will find the same thing that I did. But if you cling to the philosophies and doctrines of this world's religious system, and refuse to accept what is written as truth, then you will be given over to them and receive their rewards.

ralliann said:

Covenants are scripture
This is what I want to address, as it is the issue that we see scripture speaking differently. this is what I meant by one step at a time. It does no good to either of us, to discuss ideas that are based upon a faulty understanding or the result of a faulty understanding.

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I agree. But if you can't find a Commandment of God that relegates a faithful person, Jew or non-Jew, as being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world, which you can't. Then whose Commandments is Paul talking about? I think he tells us both that it was the Circumcision, "Made with hands". You believe this represents the promoters of God's Commandments, and that Jesus destroyed God's Commandments on the Cross, "Spoiled God's Power, on the Cross, made a show of God openly, and Triumphed over God on the Cross. Because you have been taught that "GOD'S Commandments created the "WALL" between Faithful Jews and Faithful Gentiles.

But this is simply not True, according to what is actually written.

ralliann said:

We are of the mind that "the other" has a faulty understanding. Therefore meaning no disrespect I would like to take these issues one at a time.

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I agree, so what Commandments of God relegated the "Stranger" who joined himself to the Lord, as being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Studyman said:

Gen. 17: 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Ex. 12: 43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: 44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. 46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. 47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. 48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49 "One law" shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

These are the exact same Covenant.

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These are? What do you mean? Passover is a fulfillment of the covenant made with Abraham One covenant is in operation here....
Exocus 6:2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: {the LORD: or, JEHOVAH }
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.
6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:

7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.
Unleavened bread is a memorial feast of this fulfillment of what was promised Abraham in Genesis 15.
Not because it of Moses, but the fathers......
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

Studyman said:

And it doesn't create a Wall of Separation based on DNA, like you and Bob and "many" who come in Christ's Name try to convince others Paul is teaching in Eph. 2. Some, who profess to know God, try and convince me Abraham didn't know about the Christ being the Lamb of God.

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What on earth is this about?

ralliann said:

Israelites strangers to the priesthood and holy house itself, (holy place, holy of holies)

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ralliann, The Priesthood of God was created to show men in the way that they should go. And God Himself detailed who these men are, that the Priesthood was to minister unto. He called them, "The Congregation of the Lord"

Lev. 19: 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak "unto all" the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, "Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy".

And who were the Congregation of Israel, accord to the God "of the Bible"?

Ex. 12: 47 "All the congregation of Israel" "shall keep it".

48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he "shall be" as one that is born in the land: (Jew from the heart as Paul teaches) for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, "and" unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

This is the Congregation of the Lord, YES?

34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you "as one born among you", and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Now if you can't accept who the Congregation of the Lord was, according to God's Own Definition, then how can you define the Priesthood God put in place to provide atonement for them, "Till the Seed should Come"?

ralliann said:

Nu 3:10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their "priest’s office": and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

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What was the job of the Priest of God? Lev. 4: 20 "and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them".

How does this relegate the Non-Jew or as you seem to be promoting here, the other 11 tribes of Israel, as "being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

What are you trying to say here, that Ruben, Simeon, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, Benjamin, along with all Faithful Non-Jews who "Joined themselves to the Lord" are all relegated by God's Commandments as "being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world", because of the Levitical Priesthood?

Come on ralliann. I can see Bob preaching such things, but I am surprised that you buy into this philosophy.

ralliann said:

Nu 3:38 But those that encamp before the tabernacle toward the east, even before the tabernacle of the congregation eastward, shall be Moses, and Aaron and his sons, keeping the charge of the sanctuary "for the charge "of the children of Israel"; and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

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We also have a High Priest who is Providing atonement for us as an advocate for us to the Father. Do you not believe this? Can you provide atonement for me? How about the Pope, or Kenneth Copeland? What would happen if any of these men, or any others who might "Transform themselves into Apostles of Christ", if they said they can provide for my atonement? Would this person not be a Stranger, and then cut off from God's People?

Ralliann, there is only One Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek" And we are told to "Come to Him for atonement", no One else. Just as there was only ONE Tribe in the Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron", and the Israelite and the Stranger who sojourns with them, are instructed to "Come to them," and no one else, for atonement. Wasn't this a Shodow of the New Priesthood?

Neither one of these Priesthood relegated a Non-Jew as "being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world". Neither one of these Priesthood's provided by God, created a Wall of Separation between a Faithful Non-Jew who Joined themselves to the Lord.

But the Commandments of Men that the corrupt Priests taught for doctrines did, as Jesus Himself, and Paul in Eps. 2 tells us, did call faithful Gentiles, "The Uncircumcision" and relegated them as without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

ralliann said:

Nu 16:40 To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger <02114>, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; (A Priesthood Duty) that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.

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Can you become my Advocate between God and me? Can you go and prepare a place for me in God's Mansion? No you can't. And if you attempt to, or claim to be my Priest with such powers, will you do be cut off from the Kingdom of God?

I don't think you have thought this philosophy out.

ralliann said:

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

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But I showed you God's Own Laws ralliann. In which HE Himself tells us that "ANY Person, regardless of their DNA, are free to "Join themselves to the Lord", and receive from God a welcome into His Kingdom. So when were Gentiles, according to God's Commandments, without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world?

Where is the Levite Priest instructed to provide atonement for a non-repentant person, Jew or Gentile?

God's Commandments are not the problem here, even though there are "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who preach that they were. Jesus exposed and destroyed a centuries old Lie about God, and nailed it to the Cross.

But you and I have the Oracles of god in our own Homes now, so WE sit in Moses Seat. Listen to what is actually written. That is all I advocate for.

ralliann said:

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

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So then in your religion, Paul is calling Gentiles, "walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" "fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God"?

That doesn't make any sense, and Paul never taught any such thing.

ralliann said:

Le 25:23 The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers Gr 4339) and sojourners Gr (paroikoi) with me. {for ever: or, to be quite cut off: Heb. for cutting off }

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Lev. 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses in mount Sinai, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, "When ye come into the land which I give you", then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.

You don't know what you are even talking about sir. If you believe we are in the Promised Land, then I can't help you.

ralliann said:

1Ch 29:15 For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as were all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is none abiding.

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1 Chr. 29: 14 But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.

15 For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as were all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is none abiding.

16 O LORD our God, all this store that we have prepared to build thee an house for thine holy name cometh of thine hand, and is all thine own.

Why did you post this, because your did a word search for "Stranger"? How is this David relegated by God's Commandments as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world?"

17 I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.

18 O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee:

You said you wanted to stick to one thing, and yet you are now just posting random Scriptures that don't even speak to Pauls teaching in Ephesians. At least you don't show a connection.

ralliann said:

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

The Greek words (526) here for (Gr 526) ( Heb 02114) can be found in verse 69:8

Ps 69:8 I am become a stranger (526) unto my brethren, and an alien (3581 zenos) unto my mother’s children.
Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged Gr (526) from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. {as soon … : Heb. from the belly }

The same Greek word is used also below. But there is no Hebrew term...
Ho 9:10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

All I am saying is these designations are often spoken of concerning JEW's in various ways. But mostly their relation to the house of God in relation to the priesthood.
After all Ephesians is a greek text. Thes same words imo should also be found in Greek text of the old testament...

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How does any of this prove that God's Commandments relegated Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world"?

You should stick to one thing.

Bob S said:

That is not the point of our discussion. We are debating whether or not Jesus destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations, or whether He set aside the commandments of men.

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There is a popular religious philosophy of this world, that you have adopted and are now preaching it to others, that Paul is teaching the Ephesians in Chapter 2, that it was God's Commandments that the Religious rulers of the Jews, the Pharisees and Scribes, were obeying, that caused them to call Faithful Gentiles, "The Uncircumcision", and that God's Commandments , promoted by the Pharisees, relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world". And therefore, it was by God's Commandments that a Non-Jew, who joined himself to the Lord, wasn't allowed in the Temple, and wasn't allowed to be "Grafted in" to the Holy Tree, wasn't considered as a fellow Jew, and had no hope and was rejected by God in this world.

And that God's commandments caused this barrier, a "Wall of Hostility", between men born with Jewish DNA and men born without Jewish DNA.

And that Jesus had to come and destroy God's Commandments, to "Spoil God's Power and Principality", to "make a show of God" openly, and therefore Triumph over God, by Nailing God's commandments, that you preach were against Paul and the Gentiles, to the Cross.

However, when a man actually reads the Bible, as Paul instructs men to do, they can read for themselves what God's Commandments actually teach.

Lev. 19: 33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be "unto you" "as one born among you", and "thou shalt love him as thyself"; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt (Before joining themselves to the Lord) I am the LORD your God.

And the Prophets, inspired by the Same spirit, in my view, promote the same Gospel.

Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger,(Non-Jew) that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, "every one" that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 "Even them" will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

So then Bob, "where is the Commandment and ordinances" given by God, that relegated these Non-Jews as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world"? You cannot find one Bob. I have asked you over and over to produce even ONE Commandment from God that relegated a Non-Jew as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

But such a Commandment doesn't exist in the Holy Scriptures. So where then, did this commandment come from? Whose Commandments were being taught in the Temple, in the city of David?

When I ask the Jesus, "of the Bible", what commandments the Pharisees were teaching the people for Doctrines, here is what HE said.

Matthew 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, (Pharisees, Rulers of the Temple) saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So I know you don't believe in the Words of this Jesus, nevertheless, according to HIM, God never created a commandment where men are judged by the DNA they were born with. Or a Commandment that relegated a non-Jew as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world"? YOU preach this, Kenneth Copeland preaches this, the Pope preaches this. But Jesus never did, God never did and Paul certainly never did.

And you can not find anyplace where it is written in Scriptures that they did. Not ONE place.

Paul says:

Rom. 2: 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles "through you", as it is written.

But you are preaching to the world, to anyone who will listen, that the Name of God was blasphemed "Among the Gentiles" "through God's Commandments". Not the Commandments of Men the "circumcision made with hands" taught for doctrine?

So I know it is your mission to promote the philosophy that Jesus came to destroy God's commandments, not the traditions and commandments of fleshy men that the rulers of the Temple taught for doctrines.

But Paul didn't teach this philosophy to the Ephesians. And you have provided nothing but your own words to support your teaching that he did. While I have posted scriptures after scripture detailing whose commandments blasphemed the Name of God among the Gentiles.

Bob S said:

I am telling you that is not how it works. Jesus didn't come here to change the laws that man made.

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I hope there are others reading along so they can see you detail perfectly the founding principle of this world's religious philosophy promoted by this world's religious system, "Who Come in Christ's Name".

You believe it is God's Commandments that caused all the problems in the world. Not the precepts or commandments of men.

The Jesus "of the bible" said;

Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject "the commandment of God", that ye may keep your own tradition.

But Bob, this is your stated religion.

Why then is Jesus rebuking these guys for rejecting God's Laws that you preach to the world Jesus came to destroy?

This is why Jesus said to come out of this world's religions. They are chaos, Babylon, they don't make any sense, they deny the very Words of the Christ they call Lord, Lord and are hypocrites.

Bob S said:

God never did that. God made man free to do what we please. We can either follow His teachings or spread heresies. The commands Jesus annulled were the ones He had previously given to Israel.

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The Jesus "of the Bible" said not to even "Think" what your have adopted as the very foundation of your religion.

Bob S said:

Jesus initiated a new and better law for all mankind, the Royal Law of Love.

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And Truly HE was the Christ who gave to us this "Royal Law of Love", as HE Details before becoming a man and "Living By" His Own Commandments.

Lev. 19: 17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt "love thy neighbour" as thyself: I am the LORD.

33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be "unto you" as one born among you, and "thou shalt love him as thyself"; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Duet. 6: 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt "love the LORD thy God" with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Duet. 10: 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: 18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. 19 "Love ye therefore the stranger": for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Jesus ushered in a New and Better Priesthood, better than the temporary Priesthood covenant HE made with Levi, after the Golden calf event.

But His Royal Law of Love was given to mankind long before HE became a mortal man and dwelled among us. Just because your masters don't teach you what is actually written in Scriptures, doesn't make what is written in Scriptures void.

Bob S said:

We are to love others as Jesus loves us.

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Yes, that is God's Commandment from the very beginning, even for Cain and Abel. And even for the Israelite and the Stranger who sojourned with them, who this same Christ led out of Egypt. The Holy One who led Israel out of Egypt "IS LOVE".

There is no other God Bob, I don't care what the prince of this world preaches though it's religious system.

1 John 4: 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Bob S said:

I cannot believe you would accuse me of teaching heresy.

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You are Bob teaching an evil heresy Bob. You are promoting an insidious lie, an exceedingly evil wickedness, that God's/Christ's Commandments given through Moses didn't teach Israel to "Love the Stranger" in the same manner as Christ Loved Israel when they were strangers in Egypt. And when you are presented with God's actual Words showing you that HE did, you reject them as irrelevant, refusing to even acknowledge them, much less discuss them. And when the children of the devil, the Pharisees who ruled the Temple in the City of David, the epicenter of the religions of the world at that time, who professed to know God, taught hatred for the Stranger, and relegated them as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world", you preach to the world that it was because they were obeying "God's commandments" "that taught them to do so". And that Jesus had to come and destroy God's commandments that you preach caused those who obeyed them, to not Love the Gentile.

Paul isn't teach this heresy to the Ephesians. God's commandments never taught the Jews to treat non-Jews the way they treated them. Jesus Himself tells whose Commandments these same Rulers of the Temple taught for doctrines. As anyone can see who actually reads what is written, it wasn't God's commandments that prevented the Gentile from Joining himself to the Lord, and it wasn't God's Commandments that caused the rebellious Jews to vex the Gentile the way they did.

Bob S said:

When you do, you are also accusing Jesus, who gave mankind the new command, the New and better covenant, of love.

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I don't know what jesus you speak of here. The Christ of the Bible taught men to Love God and Love one another from the very beginning. This Christ, after become a man, ushered in a New Ministry, a New Priesthood as Prophesied, but HE didn't come to destroy the Royal Law of Love HE gave to Israel, some of which I posted above.

Studyman said:

ralliann, The Priesthood of God was created to show men in the way that they should go. And God Himself detailed who these men are, that the Priesthood was to minister unto. He called them, "The Congregation of the Lord"

Lev. 19: 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak "unto all" the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, "Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy".

And who were the Congregation of Israel, accord to the God "of the Bible"?

Ex. 12: 47 "All the congregation of Israel" "shall keep it".

48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he "shall be" as one that is born in the land: (Jew from the heart as Paul teaches) for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, "and" unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

This is the Congregation of the Lord, YES?

34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you "as one born among you", and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Now if you can't accept who the Congregation of the Lord was, according to God's Own Definition, then how can you define the Priesthood God put in place to provide atonement for them, "Till the Seed should Come"?



What was the job of the Priest of God? Lev. 4: 20 "and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them".

How does this relegate the Non-Jew or as you seem to be promoting here, the other 11 tribes of Israel, as "being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

What are you trying to say here, that Ruben, Simeon, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, Benjamin, along with all Faithful Non-Jews who "Joined themselves to the Lord" are all relegated by God's Commandments as "being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world", because of the Levitical Priesthood?

Come on ralliann. I can see Bob preaching such things, but I am surprised that you buy into this philosophy.





We also have a High Priest who is Providing atonement for us as an advocate for us to the Father. Do you not believe this? Can you provide atonement for me? How about the Pope, or Kenneth Copeland? What would happen if any of these men, or any others who might "Transform themselves into Apostles of Christ", if they said they can provide for my atonement? Would this person not be a Stranger, and then cut off from God's People?

Ralliann, there is only One Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek" And we are told to "Come to Him for atonement", no One else. Just as there was only ONE Tribe in the Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron", and the Israelite and the Stranger who sojourns with them, are instructed to "Come to them," and no one else, for atonement. Wasn't this a Shodow of the New Priesthood?

Neither one of these Priesthood relegated a Non-Jew as "being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world". Neither one of these Priesthood's provided by God, created a Wall of Separation between a Faithful Non-Jew who Joined themselves to the Lord.

But the Commandments of Men that the corrupt Priests taught for doctrines did, as Jesus Himself, and Paul in Eps. 2 tells us, did call faithful Gentiles, "The Uncircumcision" and relegated them as without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:




Can you become my Advocate between God and me? Can you go and prepare a place for me in God's Mansion? No you can't. And if you attempt to, or claim to be my Priest with such powers, will you do be cut off from the Kingdom of God?

I don't think you have thought this philosophy out.



But I showed you God's Own Laws ralliann. In which HE Himself tells us that "ANY Person, regardless of their DNA, are free to "Join themselves to the Lord", and receive from God a welcome into His Kingdom. So when were Gentiles, according to God's Commandments, without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world?

Where is the Levite Priest instructed to provide atonement for a non-repentant person, Jew or Gentile?

God's Commandments are not the problem here, even though there are "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who preach that they were. Jesus exposed and destroyed a centuries old Lie about God, and nailed it to the Cross.

But you and I have the Oracles of god in our own Homes now, so WE sit in Moses Seat. Listen to what is actually written. That is all I advocate for.



So then in your religion, Paul is calling Gentiles, "walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" "fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God"?

That doesn't make any sense, and Paul never taught any such thing.




Lev. 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses in mount Sinai, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, "When ye come into the land which I give you", then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.

You don't know what you are even talking about sir. If you believe we are in the Promised Land, then I can't help you.


1 Chr. 29: 14 But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.

15 For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as were all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is none abiding.

16 O LORD our God, all this store that we have prepared to build thee an house for thine holy name cometh of thine hand, and is all thine own.

Why did you post this, because your did a word search for "Stranger"? How is this David relegated by God's Commandments as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world?"

17 I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.

18 O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee:

You said you wanted to stick to one thing, and yet you are now just posting random Scriptures that don't even speak to Pauls teaching in Ephesians. At least you don't show a connection.




How does any of this prove that God's Commandments relegated Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world"?

You should stick to one thing.

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I am sorry, I was sticking to one thing.
Jew's which were strangers in the tabernacle/house of God and the priesthood. Why you focus on my comments for just Gentiles? Only Levites and the sons of Aaron were not strangers there. Ephesians 2:19
There is the covenant of priesthood made at Sinai, from Moses. Eph 2:19
There is a covenant made with Abraham, in circumcision Eph 2:12.

That is how I see Ephesians. And to have this rant from you instead of discussion is a disappointment. I will not engage you further.

ralliann said:

I am sorry, I was sticking to one thing.

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We are talking about the teaching in Eph. 2.

The issue at hand is whose Commandments relegated Non-Jews/Gentiles as without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world, prompting Jesus to destroy them.

You and Bob are teaching that it was God's Commandments and in your attempt to support this popular philosophy, you brought up the Levitical Priesthood as the Commandment that relegated non-Jews/Gentiles as without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

I am pointing out that this is not true, according to what is actually written.

ralliann said:

Jew's which were strangers in the tabernacle/house of God and the priesthood. Why you focus on my comments for just Gentiles?

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First of all, Paul didn't say that the "Commandments" nailed to the cross, relegated Jews as without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Paul isn't talking about Jews here. Please don't add your preconceived philosophies into Paul's teaching.
We are talking about Paul's teaching in Ephesians 2. If you want to change the subject, and talk about the Levitical Priesthood, you can start another thread.

The purpose of the Priesthood was in part, to provide atonement for the Children of Israel. The Israelite as defined by God, includes blood descendants of Abraham "AND ALSO any stranger that shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, whose males be circumcised, and who come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land:

Here is the main Priesthood duty.

Lev. 4: 27 And if any one of the common people "sin" through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30 And the (Levite) priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and "the priest shall make an atonement for him", and it (The Sin of the common man) shall be forgiven him.

I don't know who is teaching you these things about God and His Priesthood, that Jews were Strangers in the Temple of God. But you should stop listening to them right away. Because the very reason for the existence of the Levitical Priesthood was to provide Atonement for the Homeborn, and the Stranger that sojourned with them.

ralliann said:

Only Levites and the sons of Aaron were not strangers there. Ephesians 2:19

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18 For through him we "both" have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens "with the saints", and of the household of God;

Are you teaching then that only Levites are Saints? Was David and Caleb a Saint? Were they Levites?

Don't become angry because I question your preaching. I'm supposed to.

Didn't Jesus make it exactly as it was designed to be from the beginning? If the Pharisees had believed Moses, and had obeyed God's Commandments, there would have been no dividing wall. You can read this for yourself as it is taught in your own Bible.

Now it is true that only a Levite could minister in the Priest's Office, to provide atonement for God's People at that time, just as only the High Priest of God that exists now, The Lord's Christ, is the only ONE who can provide atonement for God's People at this time.

ralliann said:

There is the covenant of priesthood made at Sinai, from Moses. Eph 2:19

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There is no Priesthood Covenant made on Mt. Sinai where Jews, or Non-Jews who join themselves to God, are strangers and foreigners of the household of God.

Just as there is no Commandments of God that relegates Jews or Gentiles as without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

The teaching that there is, comes from man, not God as the Scriptures I posted, but you refuse to even discuss, clearly show.

ralliann said:

There is a covenant made with Abraham, in circumcision Eph 2:12.

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There is no Covenant made with Abraham where his children, or the strangers who sojourn with him, are strangers and foreigners of the household of God.

Someone has taught you this. My guess, is that it is from the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who come in Christ's Name, that Jesus warned to "Take heed of, lest you become convinced that a falsehood about God, is the Truth. (AKA, become deceived)

There is nothing in the Priesthood Covenant from God that relegated any repentant person, who joined himself to the Lord, as are strangers and foreigners of the household of God. Nor does there exist any Commandment from God that relegated "ANY" repentant and faith person, as without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

You and Bob are trying to prove that God's Commandments caused the problem between Jews and Gentiles in Paul's Time. But as the Scriptures I have posted have clearly shown that this teaching is a false teaching. Popular in this world's religions Yes, but false just the same.

ralliann said:

That is how I see Ephesians. And to have this rant from you instead of discussion is a disappointment. I will not engage you further.

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That is how it usually goes. Jesus and Paul exposed, through scriptures, false teachings and the commandments of men taught as doctrines and promoted by the mainstream religions of the world God placed them in. Most of the promoters of these false teachings just ignored the Scriptures, and stopped engaging about them.

Nevertheless, it is important to my view, to discern the many voices who profess to know God, that preach in the garden God placed us in.

My hope, is that you might consider what is written in the confines of your own home, when no one but God is around, and consider these things.

Studyman said:

There is a popular religious philosophy of this world, that you have adopted and are now preaching it to others, that Paul is teaching the Ephesians in Chapter 2, that it was God's Commandments that the Religious rulers of the Jews, the Pharisees and Scribes, were obeying, that caused them to call Faithful Gentiles, "The Uncircumcision", and that God's Commandments , promoted by the Pharisees, relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world". And therefore, it was by God's Commandments that a Non-Jew, who joined himself to the Lord, wasn't allowed in the Temple, and wasn't allowed to be "Grafted in" to the Holy Tree, wasn't considered as a fellow Jew, and had no hope and was rejected by God in this world.

And that God's commandments caused this barrier, a "Wall of Hostility", between men born with Jewish DNA and men born without Jewish DNA.

And that Jesus had to come and destroy God's Commandments, to "Spoil God's Power and Principality", to "make a show of God" openly, and therefore Triumph over God, by Nailing God's commandments, that you preach were against Paul and the Gentiles, to the Cross.

However, when a man actually reads the Bible, as Paul instructs men to do, they can read for themselves what God's Commandments actually teach.

Lev. 19: 33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be "unto you" "as one born among you", and "thou shalt love him as thyself"; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt (Before joining themselves to the Lord) I am the LORD your God.

And the Prophets, inspired by the Same spirit, in my view, promote the same Gospel.

Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger,(Non-Jew) that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, "every one" that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 "Even them" will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

So then Bob, "where is the Commandment and ordinances" given by God, that relegated these Non-Jews as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world"? You cannot find one Bob. I have asked you over and over to produce even ONE Commandment from God that relegated a Non-Jew as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

But such a Commandment doesn't exist in the Holy Scriptures. So where then, did this commandment come from? Whose Commandments were being taught in the Temple, in the city of David?

When I ask the Jesus, "of the Bible", what commandments the Pharisees were teaching the people for Doctrines, here is what HE said.

Matthew 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, (Pharisees, Rulers of the Temple) saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So I know you don't believe in the Words of this Jesus, nevertheless, according to HIM, God never created a commandment where men are judged by the DNA they were born with. Or a Commandment that relegated a non-Jew as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world"? YOU preach this, Kenneth Copeland preaches this, the Pope preaches this. But Jesus never did, God never did and Paul certainly never did.

And you can not find anyplace where it is written in Scriptures that they did. Not ONE place.

Paul says:

Rom. 2: 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles "through you", as it is written.

But you are preaching to the world, to anyone who will listen, that the Name of God was blasphemed "Among the Gentiles" "through God's Commandments". Not the Commandments of Men the "circumcision made with hands" taught for doctrine?

So I know it is your mission to promote the philosophy that Jesus came to destroy God's commandments, not the traditions and commandments of fleshy men that the rulers of the Temple taught for doctrines.

But Paul didn't teach this philosophy to the Ephesians. And you have provided nothing but your own words to support your teaching that he did. While I have posted scriptures after scripture detailing whose commandments blasphemed the Name of God among the Gentiles.



I hope there are others reading along so they can see you detail perfectly the founding principle of this world's religious philosophy promoted by this world's religious system, "Who Come in Christ's Name".

You believe it is God's Commandments that caused all the problems in the world. Not the precepts or commandments of men.

The Jesus "of the bible" said;

Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject "the commandment of God", that ye may keep your own tradition.

But Bob, this is your stated religion.

Why then is Jesus rebuking these guys for rejecting God's Laws that you preach to the world Jesus came to destroy?

This is why Jesus said to come out of this world's religions. They are chaos, Babylon, they don't make any sense, they deny the very Words of the Christ they call Lord, Lord and are hypocrites.

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It looks to me like it is God's commandments that's being referred to in Ephesians 2, making the barrier.

For example
No man with crushed or severed genitals may enter the assembly of the LORD.
No one of illegitimate birth may enter the assembly of the LORD, nor may any of his descendants, even to the tenth generation.
No Ammonite or Moabite or any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even to the tenth generation Deuteronomy 23

Leaf473 said:

It looks to me like it is God's commandments that's being referred to in Ephesians 2, making the barrier.

For example
No man with crushed or severed genitals may enter the assembly of the LORD.
No one of illegitimate birth may enter the assembly of the LORD, nor may any of his descendants, even to the tenth generation.
No Ammonite or Moabite or any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even to the tenth generation Deuteronomy 23

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Imo there is a contrast of this Mosaic law, and this Abrahamic law
To a thousand generations......
Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

Which law from moses could not disanull

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Bob S said:

Wrong! Jesus even said He was giving mankind a NEW Covenant, J13:34 34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

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There is no doubt the Pharisees in the Temple never taught them about God's Commandment to Love one another, or about the Just living by Faith, given Jesus said they omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith. So the Commandment was New to the people in Jerusalem. But the teaching certainly wasn't New, as it is written in Scriptures I posted for you, but you ignored.

1 John 3: 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness "is not of God", neither he that loveth not his brother. 11 For this is the message that ye heard "from the beginning", that we should love one another. 12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? "Because his own works were evil", and his brother's righteous.

And again:

1 John 2: 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, "in him" verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. 9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

I posted for you the Commandments of God from the beginning. If I hated you, I would let you go on promoting falsehoods about God without warning you what the Bible actually teaches. If I hated others on this forum, I wouldn't warn them to take heed of the philosophy you are promoting

This is God's Love that Jesus showed to me, when in time past I walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

Man's Love means little, it is God's Love that Jesus showed to us. You can also read about this in the Holy scriptures is you would like to know what "God's Love" is.

Bob S said:

I ask you, how much does Jesus love us? He loves us so much that before the foundation of the Earth, the plan of Salvation was made. At that moment, Jesus became the final sacrifice for man. Jesus loves us so much that He suffered on the Cross and gave His life that we might live. Never was there a command that equals the real Royal Law of Love.

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He was murdered because HE told the truth about this world's religious system, knowing they would Kill Him, so that those who believed Him might repent of their transgressions, and "Live By" the Words of God instead. No one has ever loved me enough to risk His Life that I might turn to God, and "Yield myself" to Him. Shall I not then listen to Him, over this world's religious system you are promoting on this forum?

Bob S said:

You just cannot stop with the detrimental rhetoric can you? I do not respond to some of you out of context and mostly not relevant because it is not worth my while.

If you didn't know before, you know now that you are completely off base with your twisted interpretation of Eph 2:15. Instead of recognizing the fact you instead try to smear my reputation writing that I am promoting exceedingly evil and wickedness. Too bad

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I didn't expose this popular evil teaching you have adopted and are promoting with my words, or the words of Calvin, or Wesley or White. Rather, I showed you God's Words which expose this popular religious teaching as evil and a wicked judgement against God. Truly God's Words have become irrelevant to many. But not to Paul or the Jesus "of the bible" or me.

You are preaching that it is wrong to say that God's commandments instructed Israel to Love one another. And you are preaching others the blasphemy and evil, wicked judgment against God that HIS Commandments relegated men who would turn to Him, and join themselves to Him as without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

I am not making you preach such wickedness, and Paul is certainly not promoting such a teaching either. As you have told me several times, You are free to preach all the lies about God that you want, and God is not stopping you. He didn't stop the Pharisees either.

Nevertheless, I think it is wrong to teach falsehoods about God. Especially when you are shown what the Scriptures actually teach. This is the contention between us.

Bob S said:

That is a twisted and undeniably falsehood of what I wrote.

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No it's not. It's your preaching without all the lipstick. You have repeated over and over again that it was God's commandments that relegated non-Jews, as without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: implying that in order for Gentiles to be saved, Jesus had to destroy God's commandments, that "You Preach" caused the Wall of separation between Jews and Faithful Gentiles.

That is your preaching. Read your own words if you don't believe me.

Bob S said:

OI have never said they did. I said they felt superior to the Gentiles. The claimed the Gentiles were unclean. `Today Jews are grafted into the tree just as are Gentiles.

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But if they had believed Moses, and had obeyed God's Commandments, they would know that there is no difference between the Home Born Jew and the Stranger that sojourns among them, in God's Judgment. And they would NOT be teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, that relegated Gentiles as without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

Leaf473 said:

It looks to me like it is God's commandments that's being referred to in Ephesians 2, making the barrier.

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That is the teaching of "Many" who come in Christ's Name.

Leaf473 said:

For example
No man with crushed or severed genitals may enter the assembly of the LORD.

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No man that has not ate the Flesh of Jesus, or drank His Blood, has any Life in them.

How do these Commandments of God create a barrier between Jew and Gentile?

Will you answer?

Leaf473 said:

No one of illegitimate birth may enter the assembly of the LORD, nor may any of his descendants, even to the tenth generation.

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But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be "unto you" as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself;

Is this stranger not "born again" and is now a new man who has become part of the assembly of the Lord?


for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Are these Jews also not born again and is now become a new man, who has become part of the assembly of the Lord?

How does this commandment relegate any stranger as without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

Will you answer?

Leaf473 said:

No Ammonite or Moabite or any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even to the tenth generation Deuteronomy 23

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But an Ammonite or Moabite who "joins himself to the Lord, to serve Him", to sojourn with the Children of Israel, " he shall be as one that is born in the land", according to God's commandments, and God says they "shall be unto you" "as one born among you", and thou shalt love him as thyself;

Will you then judge the Ammonite "who joins himself to the Lord" as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" as the Pharisees did?

Or will you submit to God's Commandments, and consider this man a "New Man", no longer an Ammonite, "but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God".

ralliann said:

Imo there is a contrast of this Mosaic law, and this Abrahamic law
To a thousand generations......
Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

Which law from moses could not disanull

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

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That sounds right

Studyman said:

That is the teaching of "Many" who come in Christ's Name.

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Yes. A teaching that is held by many isn't necessarily wrong. Many who come in the name of Jesus also teach that he was born of a virgin. And that's true.

I'll be happy to respond to any issue you wish to raise. But just one thing at a time

I like to end with a psalm, hymn, or spiritual song. An excerpt from Psalm 43
Send out Your light and Your truth; let them lead me. Let them bring me to Your holy mountain, and to the place where You dwell.