Being embarrassed about Jesus?

JohnClay said:

That sounds to me like "it does matter" therefore it is true... though maybe my reasoning is flawed.

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If I were presenting that as an argument, I suppose that would be accurate. But insofar as I argue that it's true, it's simply that it is the most parsimonious explanation for a minimum set of generally accepted facts and when we try to compare it to analogues the closest we can point to is things like the cargo cults of micronesia, which were built around true events that the people interpreted according to their worldview.

JohnClay said:

I was wondering why they didn't believe in the afterlife. Perhaps because the early Bible doesn't really say that everyone has an afterlife of Heaven/Hell.

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No John. We do not have to guess. I gave you the reasons from both secular history, and Biblical history.
You want the real reason, don't you?

JohnClay said:

I think either it wouldn't happen or it would be reasonable to say it was a coincidence - or a person chose the name based on their knowledge of the writings.
BTW there is a novel from 1949 about a person living on Mars as a leader called "The Elon"

Project Mars: A Technical Tale - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'm not sure whether Elon's father had read the book and used it to choose that name.

The Wreck of the Titan: Or, Futility - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

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Perhaps Elon Musk will be living on Mars as a leader in 2080.

So, God foretold...

1. Persia would conquer Babylon
2. The Persian ruler would be Cyrus, who was not yet born
3. The Persian conqueror would release the captives, allowing them to return to their homeland
4. The impregnable city Babylon would be conquered in one night (no siege. no prolonged battle)
5. The exact details of the conquest - river waters surrounding the city would diminish Isaiah 44:27, 28; the gates (usually buttoned down, would be left opened Isaiah 44:28-45:1... allowing easy entry into... how does secular history describe it? Babylon's walls were considered impenetrable. The only way into the city was through one of its many gates, or through the Euphrates River. Metal grates were installed underwater, allowing the river to flow through the city walls while preventing intrusion.
6. The captive Jews in Babylon - the city known to never release its captives - would return home, and rebuild their City, which was burnt and destroyed Isaiah 44:26

We can certainly rule out delusion, or hallucinations because this is recorded as a fact of history.
However, you suggest this is all coincidence.

To ask a person to consider the possibility of coincidence here though, John, to me, is like doing the following:
A guy you met... let's call him...
Dave: "I think the earth is flat, and any evidence that the earth is spherical, is either coincidental, or delusion, or hallucination is involved. If science can prove the earth is spherical, that would rule out any idea of the flat earth theory."
You: There is evidence the earth is spherical.

• The gravitational effects on objects and the behavior of the Earth's magnetic field also provide evidence for its spherical shape.
• The variations in Earth's gravitational attraction can be measured and provide concrete evidence of the Earth's shape.
• The Apollo missions returned images of the Earth from space, showing it as a blue sphere.
• The curvature of the Earth can be observed from high altitudes.
• The change in the position of the North Star (Polaris) as one moves north or south indicates the Earth is spherical.

Dave: "I think all that can be easily explained as delusion. Some things appear to some people as if it is so, and there is also the possibility of fraud."
What do you tell Dave, John?

Bear in mind that whatever you tell Dave, is a response to yourself, because there isn't any difference between the conversation we are having, and the one you and Dave are having, is there?

The evidence presented for Divine prophecy can only be denied if one does what Dave is doing, because if someone can give several details about an event that has not taken place, and these details are fulfilled precisely... and the person can do that repeatedly, that is definitive proof, that ability supersedes human ability... at least known.

What Dave is doing, is not really giving consideration to the evidence presented, but holds to his position that if it does not agree with him, then there is some reason why it is not true.

JohnClay said:

Also:

I could also invent an example about a limb that grew back instantly after prayer. What would skeptics say? Well I'd say that it would probably never happen anyway.
So if it can't "be explained by skeptics as coincidence, delusion, hallucinations, or fraud" then I don't think it will ever happen. I think God can intervene but "When you [God] do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all".

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Well fulfilled prophecy has happened, and continues to happen even now.
So, that rules out "would probably never happen anyway".
Looks like you are running short on probabilities, John.

JohnClay said:

You seem to be saying that the Jews before the Sadducees did believe in Heaven and Hell but I don't think the Bible supports that.

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Why would you think I am saying that John?
Perhaps I am not understanding what you are trying to find out.
I thought you wanted to know why the Sadducees didn't believe in the afterlife... or resurrection.

You said:

I was wondering why they didn't believe in the afterlife.

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How did heaven and hell get into the picture?
There is nothing in the Bible suggesting that the Sadducees didn't believe in heaven or hell. Nor that they did.
The Bible says they didn't believe in resurrection, nor angels nor spirit. Acts 23:6-8

According to secular sources, the Sadducees were known for their strict adherence to the written Torah and rejected the oral traditions of the Pharisees.
One source states Josephus, says:
The Pharisees have delivered to the people a great many observances by succession from their fathers, which are not written in the laws of Moses; and for that reason it is that the Sadducees reject them, and say that we are to esteem those observances to be obligatory which are in the written word, but are not to observe what are derived from the tradition of our forefathers”.

What I said to you, is the reason for this is the Sadducees are made up of some of the Jews who were in captivity to Babylon. This sect, would have deviated from the Jewish teachings, because the Torah, the Prophets and Writings contain teachings on the resurrection, angels, and spirit.
According to Nehemiah, a lot of the leading Jews - priests among them, married foreign women, and their children did not know the Jewish culture... obviously because the foreign mothers educated their children in their culture.
So, that is one explanation, as well as the fact that some of the returning Jews opposed God's teachings for greedy and selfish gain.

Is that what you read?

JohnClay said:

My point was that the novel about Titan seemed to get a lot of things right, similar to your Persia, etc, example. Yet people would just believe it is a coincidence.

My quote is about apparent supernatural phenomena and God. It isn't really related to the flat earth. I've asked some atheists about the Persia/Babylon prophecies and I'll see what they say.

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The Bible says that God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and Sulphur.
Archaeological evidence suggests that a catastrophic event led to the destruction of ancient cities in the region. This event is believed to have caused intense heat, fire, and the release of sulfur.

What do you think atheist will say about that?
What every skeptic of the Bible will say...
"It possibly involving a meteor impact or a natural disaster, some cosmic airburst, such as an exploding meteor or comet, could have caused widespread destruction, including a high-temperature thermal pulse and a hypervelocity blast wave that devastated the area, and the Jews got confused and attributed it to some deity, and then wrote some story, and it got put in their book."
LOL

JohnClay said:

BTW what do you think about my upside down Bible and Connect 4 stories? Do you think they were coincidences and had nothing to do with some kind of God? I think their likelihood is extremely low.

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I didn't read about them.
Perhaps you can give a brief summary.
I can tell you though, that most things do have something to do with some kind of God, and are not coincidental.
There are two forces at work and both have interests in our lives - the God of darkness, and the God of light.

I accept the evidence that supports the truthfulness of the Bible.
So, I believe every word, as I have good reason to do so. I'm not skeptical about God and the Bible.
What it says has all proved true.

Did you know the Bible actually prophesied what we are seeing today, which is baffling officials about what to do about the world's crisis?
It's all there in the Bible... like reading today's news... yesterday.


What do you think about the increasing global crisis... their causes and impact?