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Christianity no longer seems moral to me

FireDragon76

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That notion of a clear sense of right and wrong is precisely what makes some sort of religious belief essential, as there is no room for morals with some objective evaluator. The issue is, which religion teaches the true morality? That depends on identifying the right moral framework, but there are critical failures to every philosophical framework. Consequentialism robs morality of anything but number crunching, deontology robs morality of flexibility and responsiveness, various subjective frames of morality end up unable to condemn even the most heinous actions...of them all, eudemonism comes the closest. But the thing that's missing from eudemonism is a clear human ideal for which we our purpose is revealed. Which is what Christianity adds, a clear purpose for humanity: to be conformed to the image of Christ.

That doesn't mean that within Christianity there aren't deeply flawed teachings that can be morally troubling, but God named His people Israel(contends with God) for a reason. And that reason wasn't to slavishly follow instructions without developing our own consciences, but to wrestle with Him on matters of conscience until we either understand His reason or recognize our own insufficiency to judge Him. There are positions within Christianity that address many of the things you express as finding intolerable, such as the teaching that people will be judged according to what they have done with what they had instruction wise. God knows that we are but blades of grass, springing up for a season only to wither away again. He demands that humans use honest measurements, and so we can expect Him to do the same.

It really depends on your personality type. The MTBI or Enneagram can help a person understand this. Some people will feel drawn to the Holy through a sense of moral intuition, others through aesthetics or depth, and still others through a sense of existential safety. It just depends on ones basic personality drives and what resonates with them.

At higher level of spiritual maturity, you start to perceive more resonance between all these things, and you understand they are all valid in different contexts.
 
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Fervent

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It really depends on your personality type. The MTBI or Enneagram can help a person understand this. Some people will feel drawn to the Holy through a sense of moral intuition, others through aesthetics or depth, and still others through a sense of existential safety. It just depends on ones basic personality drives and what resonates with them.
Fair enough, though I wasn't talking about what draws a person. Just the failure of non-religious moral systems to account for morality, and the need for something with an ability to make objective value statements.
At higher level of spiritual maturity, you start to perceive more resonance between all these things, and you understand they are all valid in different contexts.
True, any road that leads to Christ is a good road.
 
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FireDragon76

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Fair enough, though I wasn't talking about what draws a person. Just the failure of non-religious moral systems to account for morality, and the need for something with an ability to make objective value statements.

True, any road that leads to Christ is a good road.

While morality has often been presented, especially in certain Protestant contexts, as the substance of religion, this reflects more cultural bias often times. I don't want to be dismissive of the concept altogether, as at a certain stage of development, morality is important in establishing a sense of responsibility, but there are depths to morality beyond what is often conventionally accepted. Once one becomes more mature, one starts to realize there is a kind of logic or morality that is post-conventional, which can only be understood through tools like taking different perspectives (phenomenology, etc.), systems logic, etc.

This is why Jesus taught through parables. His parables aren't meant to have simple answers necessarily, but to be provocative, even sometimes to challenge our basic assumptions, including about morality.
 
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Fervent

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While morality has often been presented, especially in certain Protestant contexts, as the substance of religion, this reflects more cultural bias often times. I don't want to be dismissive of the concept altogether, as at a certain stage of development, morality is important in establishing a sense of responsibility, but there are depths to morality beyond what is often conventionally accepted. Once one becomes more mature, one starts to realize there is a kind of logic or morality that is post-conventional, which can only be understood through tools like taking different perspectives (phenomenology, etc.), systems logic, etc.
The issue isn't in the teaching of morality, but its ground. Morals are value statements, but they cannot be allowed to vary from person to person or else the entire concept is destroyed. They must have more weight than opinion, so they must have some sort of agent that is able to make objective evaluations that are true for all regardless of whether they are believed or not. Our options are either to embrace a sort of nihilism and say that we must create morals for ourselves, or we need an objective moral agent to ground such values in. So depth or shallowness of a particular viewpoint aren't relevant, only the question of what to ground morality in.
This is why Jesus taught through parables. His parables aren't meant to have simple answers necessarily, but to be provocative, even sometimes to challenge our basic assumptions, including about morality.
To an extent, but it was also done to obscure His message from people who would grasp hold of it illicitly.
 
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FireDragon76

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The issue isn't in the teaching of morality, but its ground. Morals are value statements, but they cannot be allowed to vary from person to person or else the entire concept is destroyed. They must have more weight than opinion, so they must have some sort of agent that is able to make objective evaluations that are true for all regardless of whether they are believed or not. Our options are either to embrace a sort of nihilism and say that we must create morals for ourselves, or we need an objective moral agent to ground such values in. So depth or shallowness of a particular viewpoint aren't relevant, only the question of what to ground morality in.

Morality isn't subjective or objective, it's contextual. Moral principles are necessary, but how those principles are applied needs to be contextual, context-sensitive.
 
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Fervent

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Morality isn't subjective or objective, it's contextual. Moral principles are necessary, but how those principles are applied needs to be contextual, context-sensitive.
That's an odd claim, especially as you've simply kicked the can from morals themselves to "moral principles"...either there is an objective standard, or there is no functional difference between moral evaluations and simple preferences. Whether that be objective principles, or objective moral decisions....somehow morality needs an objective ground to qualify as morality.
 
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FireDragon76

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That's an odd claim, especially as you've simply kicked the can from morals themselves to "moral principles"...either there is an objective standard, or there is no functional difference between moral evaluations and simple preferences. Whether that be objective principles, or objective moral decisions....somehow morality needs an objective ground to qualify as morality.

Objective principles implies that there's something that exists that's higher than God's will, whereas I'm suggesting morality is contextual and relational. This actually fits better with Trinitarian theology, since God is essentially relational. Moral principles ideally reflect something of God's will or being, so they aren't arbitrary, but neither are they independent of relationality and context.
 
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FireDragon76

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I asked ChatGPT to help parse my position into something more comprehensible to the average American Evangelical, less philosophically abstract and theological:

I believe the Ten Commandments are God-given and true. But the way we live them out must be shaped by Jesus—by His life, His love, and His relationship with the Father. God's will isn't just a list of rules; it's something personal and relational. The commandments aren’t meant to just keep us in line—they’re meant to draw us into deeper fellowship with God.

Jesus shows us that morality isn’t just about checking boxes—it’s about becoming like Him. He fulfills the law by loving perfectly, not just by following rules. That means Christian morality is always rooted in relationship: with God, with others, and with the Spirit who guides us day by day. It’s not less serious than “objective morality”—it’s actually more serious, because it invites us to walk with the living God, not just follow a code.
 
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Fervent

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Objective principles implies that there's something that exists that's higher than God's will, whereas I'm suggesting morality is contextual and relational. This actually fits better with Trinitarian theology, since God is essentially relational. Moral principles ideally reflect something of God's will or being, so they aren't arbitrary, but neither are they independent of relationality and context.
It depends on the ontology of those objective moral principles, but even rooting it in relationality you are indirectly grounding your moral system in God. It is quite possible to accept objective moral principles rooted in God's nature, not as superceding God just as the existence of laws of logic do not supercede God but are a reflection of His nature. Ultimately, there must be some foundation for morals and given the inseparability from morals and moral agents that foundation must in some manner be a moral agent. Our particular expression of that foundation will vary, and there's room for nuance, but ultimately our options are either ground morals in God or be the ground of morals ourselves in some form or fashion.
 
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FireDragon76

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It depends on the ontology of those objective moral principles, but even rooting it in relationality you are indirectly grounding your moral system in God. It is quite possible to accept objective moral principles rooted in God's nature, not as superceding God just as the existence of laws of logic do not supercede God but are a reflection of His nature. Ultimately, there must be some foundation for morals and given the inseparability from morals and moral agents that foundation must in some manner be a moral agent. Our particular expression of that foundation will vary, and there's room for nuance, but ultimately our options are either ground morals in God or be the ground of morals ourselves in some form or fashion.

I disagree. God is not an object, properly speaking. God is beyond objectification—just as you and I are not objects, but persons. To treat God as if He were a set of abstract principles or laws is to risk turning the living God into an it. That’s the beginning of idolatry.

Morality, as I understand it, isn't about deducing principles from some fixed essence. It's about honoring the profound mystery of personhood—God’s, and each other's. It's about reverence, not reduction. The moral life isn’t a puzzle to solve, but a relationship to enter with fear and awe.

The foundation of morality, then, is not a concept but a presence—God, who reveals Himself not in abstraction, but in the person of Christ. And that same God places His image in us. Christian morality begins there: with reverence for the image of God in the other, and with the call to live into that image ourselves through love.
 
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Fervent

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I disagree. God isn't an object, properly speaking. God is beyond objectification in that manner, in the same way you and I aren't properly objects, but persons. Objectification is quite simply, idolatry, and doesn't recognize the dignity of persons as containing within themselves a profound mystery worthy of our highest reverence and honor. The morality I am speaking of is about embracing that mystery with fear and awe, not as a puzzle to solve, but something to be held with reverence. That is the basis of morality: the divine image.
Whether God is an object isn't exactly relevant to God being objective. Objective simply means that no matter who agrees or disagrees, God remains the same. And whether you agree with the terminology or not, there isn't really a functional distinction to be made. You ground your morality in God, that it must be worked out through relationship and reverential fear isn't really a counter to that statement.
 
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FireDragon76

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Whether God is an object isn't exactly relevant to God being objective. Objective simply means that no matter who agrees or disagrees, God remains the same. And whether you agree with the terminology or not, there isn't really a functional distinction to be made. You ground your morality in God, that it must be worked out through relationship and reverential fear isn't really a counter to that statement.

What do you mean by "God remains the same"? this could suggest some kind of platonic metaphysics that I don't think captures the relational, dynamic nature of the Trinitarian God.

The story of the Syrophoenician woman and Jesus' encounter with the woman at the well are good examples of the dynamic I am speaking of. God isn't a unity without distinctions, but a communion of Persons, each involved in perichoeretic movement. Perichoresis means "to make space for others", a kind of "dance", which suggests movement and dynamism, not Platonic stasis.
 
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Fervent

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What do you mean by "God remains the same"? this could suggest some kind of platonic metaphysics that I don't think captures the relational, dynamic nature of the Trinitarian God.
In this context, I simply mean that God is God regardless of human opinions about God. What is true of Him persists regardless of how we understand Him.
The story of the Syrophoenician woman and Jesus' encounter with the woman at the well are good examples of the dynamic I am speaking of. God isn't a unity without distinctions, but a communion of Persons, each involved in perichoeretic movement. Perichoresis means "to make space for others", a kind of "dance", which suggests movement and dynamism, not Platonic stasis.
Yes, I also oppose the Platonic idea of God's impassivity. That is not what I was getting at with my contention that God is objective.
 
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Earthbear

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As real Christianity is the smallest minority on earth right now, how else would you expect the media/majority to perceive them ?
Just be aware, not all who use the label "Christian" are really servants of God.
To add to this there is a Bible verse Matthew 7:21 that says this.
 
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Ligurian

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I've just seen the way this leads to absolute brokenness and I have a hard time trying to believe God's morality as anything that is actual morale. Morale is based on clear evidence of right or wrong when we are born into this world missing the very Spirit that tells us right from wrong. Unless I'm just so off and he is always actually there allowing our mistakes to happen. Even so though?

If you couldn't mess up then it wouldn't be called free will. Either that or someone else would always be responsible for everything, good and bad. The evidence of right and wrong has to do with what we like being done to us... it's almost instinctive, in that regard, and nobody needs to tell us.

But there is one excuse that holds: Fetal Alcohol Effects... linked to Narcissistic Personality Disorder. People who don't believe that their rights end where everyone else's rights begin.
 
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Ligurian

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As real Christianity is the smallest minority on earth right now, how else would you expect the media/majority to perceive them ?
Just be aware, not all who use the label "Christian" are really servants of God.

Well that must be a generalization, right? America is still being called a Christian Nation... real or not, it's still waaaaay more of a majority than Western Paganism, right now.
 
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jmldn2

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First off, the mainstream media of today is not reliable, is divisive, false narratives and has become just a business with a "bottom line." Next, I base Christianity on a personal level with God Almighty; not outward appearance nor glorified words. I have become disappointed in how to follow Jesus Christ is being portrayed. I consider myself a sinner who belongs to the Lord because of His Grace and not of any of my doings/works. I do not believe in denominations, pomp and circumstance, huge church buildings, etc. I find more comfort in sitting down daily and having my devotion, listening to bible lessons verbally, and most importantly talking to God as if He and I were face to face. No eloquent words but just plain ole words spoken with sincerity. It is God who has remained the same and mankind who has changed and sometime following a crooked road. I miss the old timey services with full blast singing songs of praise and love. Just a simple service from the bible.
 
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Merlin475

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Edit: I think it might be okay to mention that I have schizophrenia/bi-polar if this seems like a stupid read.
First off I have a tendency to only post negative feelings or experiences, so let me reiterate that I have indeed had a lot of very good moments in my faith

But. Recently going through a rougher patch and it's not necessarily even my patch.

My family seems to be struggling a lot. I have siblings as well and we all know siblings can argue a lot.

The reason for me doubting morality is rooted in the way Christianity is portrayed through mainstream media. It's very counter intuitive to Christianity. I feel like it tries to over emphasize it without explaining the Word of God and including the Holy Spirit into teachings leaving everyone with less than nothing.

In the same way that growing up my parents never mentioned God once. The time I was trying to believe in Jesus was a horrible time as well. I've had a hard time coming to peace with that and constantly ruminate on the mistakes I made through just going with the mainstream Christianity or lack thereof. In the bible it explains how bad it is for anyone who causes the little ones to stumble, yet in the broken world we live in that seems to be the overwhelming majority of people.

And if parents don't teach their kids anything of spiritual sustonence how can God hold that over them growing up with none? It's a habitual cycle of brokenness as I feel the way to finding God is obviously a hard test of faith because I remember not even understanding how to call on the Lord.

I've just seen the way this leads to absolute brokenness and I have a hard time trying to believe God's morality as anything that is actual morale. Morale is based on clear evidence of right or wrong when we are born into this world missing the very Spirit that tells us right from wrong. Unless I'm just so off and he is always actually there allowing our mistakes to happen. Even so though?

It's just is seeming a chaotic cluster fluff to me right now. Deception has been a big topic I'm studying lately and it's hard to believe we live in a world like this, being hated and a target
If you look at the definition of “moral” you will see that Christianity is moral
 
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