Church discipline no longer practiced in most Protestant churches: Survey

FireDragon76 · Wednesday at 9:33 PM

RileyG said:
Well...I guess it depends how people view Holy Communion in modern times? I dunno.

It does, but that's not necessarily a negative thing. Having a transactional view of grace, as presented in some traditional Catholic or Protestant settings, isn't really in keeping with the idea of salvation as something relational and healing. Outward conformity isn't the same as developing inward virtue, sometimes it just masks hypocrisy. Repentance can't be reduced to outward conformity, actual human beings are complicated. That's why people go seek out spiritual direction, some things are more complicated than what can be covered by broad, universalized rules.

Just keep in mind that Jesus himself tolerated people in the congregation he had formed that misunderstood him, or used his presence instrumentally, even betrayed him. But he never said "you don't belong here", even if sometimes he had to point out how they were misguided or wrong.

JustaPewFiller · Thursday at 12:14 PM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Was Saint Paul wrong to publicly shame the man in Corinth who slept with his father's wife?

RileyG said:
Nope!

Would the two of you like to know the rest of the story?

Prior to the public shaming the girl had privately repented to her parents, the pastor and the deacons.

Was the church in my post wrong to publicly shame the pregnant young girl even though she had privately repented?

You may be shocked to learn the girl didn't become pregnant all on her own!! There was a boy involved as well!

Was the church wrong to not publicly shame the boy, just give him a private lecture and chalk it up to "boys will be boys"?

Does it sound the church fully followed Mat: 18?

They certainly embraced the public shaming, but does it sound like they acted in love toward the young girl and fully followed Mat: 18?

I anxiously await your views on this...

In the meantime, here is an article that does a good job talking about how the public shaming part of church discipline can go wrong and how to prevent it..

Church discipline gone wrong: more common than you think (COMMENTARY)

(RNS) There is an epidemic of mishandled church discipline cases. I was a victim of one 13 years ago.

religionnews.com

RileyG · Thursday at 2:23 PM

JustaPewFiller said:
Would the two of you like to know the rest of the story?

Prior to the public shaming the girl had privately repented to her parents, the pastor and the deacons.

Was the church in my post wrong to publicly shame the pregnant young girl even though she had privately repented?

You may be shocked to learn the girl didn't become pregnant all on her own!! There was a boy involved as well!

Was the church wrong to not publicly shame the boy, just give him a private lecture and chalk it up to "boys will be boys"?

Does it sound the church fully followed Mat: 18?

They certainly embraced the public shaming, but does it sound like they acted in love toward the young girl and fully followed Mat: 18?

I anxiously await your views on this...

In the meantime, here is an article that does a good job talking about how the public shaming part of church discipline can go wrong and how to prevent it..

Church discipline gone wrong: more common than you think (COMMENTARY)

(RNS) There is an epidemic of mishandled church discipline cases. I was a victim of one 13 years ago.

religionnews.com

It is a double standard to be fair.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Thursday at 2:43 PM

JustaPewFiller said:
Would the two of you like to know the rest of the story?

Prior to the public shaming the girl had privately repented to her parents, the pastor and the deacons.

Was the church in my post wrong to publicly shame the pregnant young girl even though she had privately repented?

You may be shocked to learn the girl didn't become pregnant all on her own!! There was a boy involved as well!

Was the church wrong to not publicly shame the boy, just give him a private lecture and chalk it up to "boys will be boys"?

Does it sound the church fully followed Mat: 18?

They certainly embraced the public shaming, but does it sound like they acted in love toward the young girl and fully followed Mat: 18?

I anxiously await your views on this...

In the meantime, here is an article that does a good job talking about how the public shaming part of church discipline can go wrong and how to prevent it..

Church discipline gone wrong: more common than you think (COMMENTARY)

(RNS) There is an epidemic of mishandled church discipline cases. I was a victim of one 13 years ago.

religionnews.com

I am simply wanting to know the limits. Do you think shaming others is something the Church should not do ever? Or are there times where members can be publically shamed such as the case of the Corinthian man? Shame, making others feel bad for their sin, is not necessarily wrong. It is often a corrective means for the sinner and a warning to others.

JustaPewFiller · Thursday at 5:15 PM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I am simply wanting to know the limits. Do you think shaming others is something the Church should not do ever? Or are there times where members can be publically shamed such as the case of the Corinthian man? Shame, making others feel bad for their sin, is not necessarily wrong. It is often a corrective means for the sinner and a warning to others.

..and I am simply still anxiously awaiting you to answer the questions I asked. Which you seem to be avoiding doing for some reason?

BUT, I will extend the courtesy of answering yours..

IF you had read the my post before the article I said, "In the meantime, here is an article that does a good job talking about how the public shaming part of church discipline can go wrong and how to prevent it.."

In that article it sums up my views on it rather nicely and sums up my views (and answers your questions) probably better than I could. It says..

Church discipline, according to Matthew 18, is a three-step process that outlines what to do in order to bring reconciliation for a Christian who has strayed from following the Lord and is living in sin

If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private. If he listens to you, you have won your brother. — Matt. 18:15 (Confront him in an effort for him to change.)

But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. — Matt. 18:16 (If step No. 1 doesn’t work, bring some people with you to confront him in order for him to be reconciled.)

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile or tax collector. — Matt. 18:17 (If bringing him before the church doesn’t bring repentance, do not welcome him at church any longer.)

This may seem harsh, but it can be a very beautiful thing if it is done with the love and grace of Jesus Christ. The point is not to condemn anyone; restoration must be the mindset. Some churches don’t factor the grace of God into these decisions at all, while some go to the other extreme, choosing never to use church discipline because of fear of negative perception. We must be balanced, using church discipline when needed (severe cases in which a person is completely unrepentant) and approach every situation with grace. Were it not for the grace of God, we could be in the same situation.

Unfortunately, Satan can get into this process easily, and if it is not done carefully, those who desperately need the support of the church can become victims of a process gone wrong. This is far more prevalent than you may think in our churches, but rarely discussed.

Now that I have answered your questions I have a few more for you.

Will you address them or deflect again?

Should shaming always be done in cases of church discpline?
Should public still shaming happen even if the person has done exactly what Mat 18:15 or Mat 18:16 lays out?
Should it always go to Mat 18:17 regardless?
Is it always a perfectly ran process implemented and oversaw by perfect people with perfect results without any danger of doing more harm than good? IF the answer is no, then perhaps could it be said that NOT jumping straight into it would be wise?
What should be done if it is handled badly as in the case of my example or in the article I linked?

@RileyG at least partly answered with an acknowledgment a double standard can exist. Perhaps implying the possibility that the implementation of the process can sometimes be flawed and produce harm rather than good. @RileyG is that correct or am I going too far in my assumption?

Once again, I anxiously await your answers.
I have, at the very least, given a good faith effort to answer your questions. Surely you can extend the same to me?

Edit - if you think I am passionate about this - you are correct. From what I've seen, if shaming is used without proper care it becomes twisted into a club used to harm rather than a tool for repentance and restoration.

Tuur · Thursday at 6:44 PM

ozso said:
Other than asking someone to not attend church there, what form of discipline is being talked about? Grounding them? Sending them to bed without supper? Taking away their video game console? Public shaming them?

When I was a young, the original records of our church surfaces. I remember being at the house of some friends of my parents as they read them. I don't recall how far back they went. The congregation dated to the early 1800. What I recall was the term "run off" used for some members. Later, realized that that was likely a reference to the church discipline commanded by Jesus in Matthew 18:15-20, and recommended by Paul in ! Corinthians 18:5-13. Paul also described in 2 Corinthians 2:5-8 restoring a disciplined member. Apparently, when the church noted a member was "run off," that was turning them out of the church.

I'm also aware of some who weren't buried in the cemetery proper. That goes back at least to Medieval Europe.

Paul, in warning that a little yeast will spread through the whole dough, illustrates the problem of lack of church discipline. The closest I saw to it and realized what I was seeing was when a store came up for a liquor license. Under state law, if a store was within such-and-such miles of a religious establishment, the religious establishment could veto the license. The deacons decided they could not oppose it. That's because there was a church member within that same distance who sold liquor and no one said boo about it. Partaking of alcoholic beverages is no big deal in many denominations, but is frowned on in others. By not taking a stand with a church member on something the church disagreed with, the church could no longer decry the same thing done by others.

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Church discipline no longer practiced in most Protestant churches: Survey

FireDragon76

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JustaPewFiller

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Church discipline gone wrong: more common than you think (COMMENTARY)

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RileyG

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Ignatius the Kiwi

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JustaPewFiller

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Tuur

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