Parallels and divergences, Calvin, Luther, and Saint Augustine

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 8, 2025

This is interesting.

A Danish friend asked who wrote this:

"Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction."

My best guess was Calvin, but I thought Luther maybe, if the quote was a little imprecise, and Saint Augustine if it was a biased translation.

An AI said this:

The quote you provided is a paraphrase or close rendering of a passage from John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, which deals with the doctrine of predestination and reprobation.

In this chapter, Calvin argues that God's sovereign will governs all things, including the eternal destinies of individuals.

I drew up this very brief and not very nuanced comparison.

Comparison with Calvin

Theme	Calvin	Luther	Augustine
Double Predestination	Explicitly affirmed	Ambiguous; often interpreted as single	Reprobation as “passing over,” not active damnation
Human Will	Totally bound; no role in election or reprobation	Will is bound; salvation is monergistic	Will is fallen but still responsible
Tone	Systematic and judicial	Paradoxical and pastoral	Pastoral, focused on grace and humility
Key Concept	Sovereign decree	Hidden God (Deus Absconditus)	Massa Damnata and unmerited grace

Clare73 · Jul 8, 2025

Xeno.of.athens said:
This is interesting.

A Danish friend asked who wrote this:

"Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction."
My best guess was Calvin, but I thought Luther maybe, if the quote was a little imprecise, and Saint Augustine if it was a biased translation.

An AI said this:

The quote you provided is a paraphrase or close rendering of a passage from John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, which deals with the doctrine of predestination and reprobation.

In this chapter, Calvin argues that God's sovereign will governs all things, including the eternal destinies of individuals.

I drew up this very brief and not very nuanced comparison.

Comparison with Calvin

�

Theme Calvin Luther Augustine
Double Predestination Explicitly affirmed Ambiguous; often interpreted as single Reprobation as “passing over,” not active damnation
Human Will Totally bound; no role in election or reprobation Will is bound; salvation is monergistic

Will is fallen but still responsible

Compared with NT:

Double Predestination

Except for those in Christ, damnation of all mankind by their guilt of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 1-16, 18-19), which imputation of Adam's sin is the patttern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness to those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

Human Will

Inability---powerless to execute the remedy (faith in Jesus Christ, which is only by gift--Php 1:29, Ac13:48,18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3)

Tone

Authoritative in its teaching/doctrine.

Key Concept
Christ the Redeemer of helpless man

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 8, 2025

Clare73 said:
NT Compared with Augustine:

Reprobation as “passing over,” not active damnation
-----Damning all all those of Adam by their guilt of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 1-16, 18-19) is not "passing over," which imputation of guilt was the patttern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness to those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

Will is fallen but still responsible
----Inability---powerless to execute the remedy (faith in Jesus Christ, which is gift only--Php 1:29, Ac13:48,18:27)

Pastoral, focused on grace and humility
----Authoritative in its teaching/doctrine.

Unmerited grace
----Christ the Redeemer

don't you like saint Augustine's theology?

Clare73 · Wednesday at 7:52 AM

Xeno.of.athens said:
don't you like saint Augustine's theology?

I prefer the NT full-bodied presentation.

Xeno.of.athens · Wednesday at 7:55 AM

Clare73 said:
I prefer the NT presentation.

Is that exactly the same as your presentation?

Clare73 · Wednesday at 7:58 AM

Xeno.of.athens said:
Is that exactly the same as your presentation?

I agree with the Biblical presentation of the NT (post #2, edited). Ro 9:22-23

Feel free to Biblically demonstrate any disagreement.

Xeno.of.athens · Wednesday at 8:24 AM

Clare73 said:
I agree with the Biblical presentation of the NT (post #2, edited).

Feel free to Biblically demonstrate any disagreement.

That was done several times by several people. But I am happy to leave it at that.

Kathleen30 · Wednesday at 8:55 AM

Xeno.of.athens said:
Is that exactly the same as your presentation?

Xeno why didn’t the Catholic Church continue to lay the foundation of St Augustine’s theology. It’s seems to have retreated in the archives of the ages for nearly a millennia. Until the Reformation

Xeno.of.athens · Wednesday at 9:02 AM

Kathleen30 said:
Xeno why didn’t the Catholic Church continue to lay the foundation of St Augustine’s theology. It’s seems to have retreated in the archives of the ages for nearly a millennia. Until the Reformation

Perhaps it was because God in his grace and the bishops guided by the Holy Spirit saw a deeper truth that cannot be set aside to follow the saint as he is interpreted by Luther or Calvin.

Kathleen30 · Wednesday at 9:19 AM

Xeno.of.athens said:
Perhaps it was because God in his grace and the bishops guided by the Holy Spirit saw a deeper truth that cannot be set aside to follow the saint as he is interpreted by Luther or Calvin.

Well not so sure about the good graces of God being involved. But Perhaps the church would been a whole lot more freer in their liberty as fellow believers if they had embraced the teachings of Augustine more fully. Instead of being controlled by the hierarchy of the church.

Xeno.of.athens · Wednesday at 9:22 AM

Kathleen30 said:
Well not so sure about the good graces of God being involved. But Perhaps the church would been a whole lot more freer in their liberty as fellow believers if they had embraced the teachings of Augustine more fully. Instead of being controlled by the hierarchy of the church.

It is my belief, after prayerful consideration and diligent study of the holy scriptures and numerous early church father's writings, that God's grace is indeed upon the Catholic Church and that its bishops are often prayerfully led by the Holy Spirit in answer to their prayers.

Kathleen30 · Wednesday at 9:31 AM

Xeno.of.athens said:
Perhaps it was because God in his grace and the bishops guided by the Holy Spirit saw a deeper truth that cannot be set aside to follow the saint as he is interpreted by Luther or Calvin.

Well not so sure about the good graces of God being involved. But Perhaps the church would been a whole lot more freer in their liberty as fellow believers if they had embraced the teachings of Augustine more fully. Instead of controlled by the hierarchy of the church.

Xeno.of.athens · Wednesday at 9:34 AM

Kathleen30 said:
Well not so sure about the good graces of God being involved. But Perhaps the church would been a whole lot more freer in their liberty as fellow believers if they had embraced the teachings of Augustine more fully. Instead of controlled by the hierarchy of the church.

It appears that you've repeated a post.

Kathleen30 · Wednesday at 9:52 AM

Xeno.of.athens said:
It appears that you've repeated a post.

Yes yu right . Must the lateness of the hour. Xena Thank your thoughts and wisdom . Good night

Xeno.of.athens · Saturday at 4:33 PM

Clare73 said:
Except for those in Christ, damnation of all mankind by their guilt of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 1-16, 18-19), which imputation of Adam's sin is the patttern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness to those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

Catholic theology distinguishes between the imputation of Adam's sin and the infusion of Christ's righteousness. While Catholics believe in original sin affecting all humanity, they don't teach that Adam's personal guilt is directly imputed to every person. Instead, original sin is understood as a deprivation of sanctifying grace.

Catholics teach that justification involves the actual infusion of sanctifying grace that makes a person truly righteous, not merely the external imputation of Christ's righteousness while remaining sinful (the Protestant concept of "simul justus et peccator").

Catholic teaching emphasises that salvation is by grace. Human cooperation with grace is necessary.

Catholic interpretation of Romans 5 acknowledges that sin entered through Adam and affects all humanity, and that Christ's sacrifice provides salvation. However, the mechanism is understood as operating through the sacramental life of the Church, particularly baptism, confirmation, and the Eucharist, thus grace is truly infused rather than merely imputed.

PS: I think Calvin got it wrong.

Fervent · Saturday at 4:49 PM

At least part of the issue is Augustine's aggressive personality and a habit of extreme rhetoric, particularly when he was writing in opposition to what he perceived others were saying. In his polemical literature against Pelagius, he emphasized the very things that Luther and Calvin took to the extreme. While he likely did not himself believe the thngs that the Reformers came to believe he taught, there is ample room for misunderstanding in his writing especially in regards to his views of God's sovereignty that underly the logical system that Calvin and Luther relied upon. In part, this was likely a result of his Manichean period as there remained in his writing traces of the animosity towards the flesh, though his extreme repudiation of dualism also likely led him to his unbalanced view of Divine sovereignty. Unlike many of the church fathers there is comparitively little incarnational reflection in Augustine, only a reflection deeply rooted in philosophy.

Xeno.of.athens · Saturday at 5:00 PM

Fervent said:
At least part of the issue is Augustine's aggressive personality and a habit of extreme rhetoric, particularly when he was writing in opposition to what he perceived others were saying. In his polemical literature against Pelagius, he emphasized the very things that Luther and Calvin took to the extreme. While he likely did not himself believe the thngs that the Reformers came to believe he taught, there is ample room for misunderstanding in his writing especially in regards to his views of God's sovereignty that underly the logical system that Calvin and Luther relied upon. In part, this was likely a result of his Manichean period as there remained in his writing traces of the animosity towards the flesh, though his extreme repudiation of dualism also likely led him to his unbalanced view of Divine sovereignty. Unlike many of the church fathers there is comparitively little incarnational reflection in Augustine, only a reflection deeply rooted in philosophy.

I think that the 'reformers' had forgotten that what the Church teaches is arrived at by corporate activity and the 'reformers' taught what they arrived at after reading the early church fathers. To a degree everybody wants to teach what they (individually) think the fathers and the scriptures mean but that is a dangerous plan to follow both because it leads to error and also because it is the first step into schism. And where schism will land who can say until they are already in it. The 'reformers' went down that road and now their successors have given birth to many conflicting ideas and many denominations.

Fervent · Saturday at 5:07 PM

Xeno.of.athens said:
I think that the 'reformers' had forgotten that what the Church teaches is arrived at by corporate activity and the 'reformers' taught what they arrived at after reading the early church fathers. To a degree everybody wants to teach what they (individually) think the fathers and the scriptures mean but that is a dangerous plan to follow both because it leads to error and also because it is the first step into schism. And where schism will land who can say until they are already in it. The 'reformers' went down that road and now their successors have given birth to many conflicting ideas and many denominations.

That's a bit of a different kettle of fish, and I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on the matter so I'm not sure it would be a profitable road to walk down.

Suffice it to say, the reformation/revolt was set in motion long before it actually took place. There's no putting that can of worms back, so at this point if there is hope for an ecumenical Christianity it's going to be finding a way to work on our common agreements and not press the areas of fundamental disagreement, contenting ourselves to be corrected/be proven correct when we repose in Christ.

Clare73 · Sunday at 9:32 AM

Xeno.of.athens said:
Catholic theology distinguishes between the imputation of Adam's sin and the infusion of Christ's righteousness.

However, Scripture presents the imputation of Adam's sin Ro 5:17-19, 14-16) to all those of Adam as the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19, 3:21, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9) to all those of Christ.

fhansen · Sunday at 12:34 PM

Xeno.of.athens said:
Catholic theology distinguishes between the imputation of Adam's sin and the infusion of Christ's righteousness.

And this is an important distinction. Rom 5:18-19 makes it clear that, due to Adam's disobedience, all became literally, actually sinners, unrighteous, not merely declared to be unrighteous. By the same token, following the same pattern, the verses tell us that, by Jesus act of obedience, man becomes literally, actually righteous, not merely declared to be righteous.

Parallels and divergences, Calvin, Luther, and Saint Augustine

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